Fox Footy Roundtable - Melbourne

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

11 hours ago, jako13 said:

Kinda getting getting sick of this garbage that's being trotted out about the attacking plan being all Goodies doing, and only due to him being in the box. It as if the senior coach has completely left the building....

I think you're misinterpreting King's comments.  I don't think he's saying that Goodwin is the sole creator of the offensive game plan but he's saying that he is the communicator of it.  And the players are responding to his message.  Personally I think it is necessary for the players to get a consistent message because we all know that different teachers teaching the same theory can have different results.  Goodwin's teaching is working, why change it?

My view is that if Roos does become the main communicator to the group he by his very nature will change the message.  He is primarily a defensive coach, that is not the GP anymore.  Roos has many strengths and has been fantastic for this club but I think he should let Goodwin continue with game day and training.

I don't understand the hate of King.  Personally I find him challenging.  He doesn't always present the popular view and he has been critical of MFC which seems to consign you to the dustbin here regardless of the merit of his comments.

 

[rpfc 28,381]

When the Swans won the flag under Roos in 05 it was with Ross Lyon in charge of the ball movement and the game plan. Hence the bringing of the same plan to the Saints in 07.

I happen to know that Nathan Bassett was in charge of ball movement at the bombers in 2014/2015. I am sure there are similar arrangements at most clubs.

Goodwin driving the evolution to a more attacking style of play isn't antithetical to being an 'assistant coach' and it isn't a submission of the head coach.

The Game Plan (c) doesn't change on a whim, and it won't change when Roos gets back in the box. 

Goodwin gets another year to learn under one of the calmest and most even coaches in modern times - a trait that is only becoming more important in today's game.

Great! Now let's get on with it.

[Skuit 10,031]

We should poach Basset from enemy territory (Norwood - Port) to takes Goodwin's spot when Goodwin takes Roos.'s. Not forgetting that Bass was an AA defender alongside Simon. He might even get some use out of Terlich. 

[Adam The God 30,218]

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

When the Swans won the flag under Roos in 05 it was with Ross Lyon in charge of the ball movement and the game plan. Hence the bringing of the same plan to the Saints in 07.

I happen to know that Nathan Bassett was in charge of ball movement at the bombers in 2014/2015. I am sure there are similar arrangements at most clubs.

Goodwin driving the evolution to a more attacking style of play isn't antithetical to being an 'assistant coach' and it isn't a submission of the head coach.

The Game Plan (c) doesn't change on a whim, and it won't change when Roos gets back in the box. 

Goodwin gets another year to learn under one of the calmest and most even coaches in modern times - a trait that is only becoming more important in today's game.

Great! Now let's get on with it.

I agree with a lot of this, but why do people keep taking it for granted that Roos will be in the box? I think he'll be on the boundary line ala his final year at the Swans and th NAB Challenge.

Further, I'd argue being the calmest isn't the most important traits in a modern day coach. I've got a good mate who has worked at Hawthorn for the past decade and he says Clarkson loses his nut. We've also seen this multiple times on TV. I don't think there is a particular style that will work for every team. It's a horses for courses type deal. Happily, the Roos/Goodwin arrangement seems to be working for us.

[DeeSpencer 25,671]

2 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

I agree with a lot of this, but why do people keep taking it for granted that Roos will be in the box? I think he'll be on the boundary line ala his final year at the Swans and th NAB Challenge.

Further, I'd argue being the calmest isn't the most important traits in a modern day coach. I've got a good mate who has worked at Hawthorn for the past decade and he says Clarkson loses his nut. We've also seen this multiple times on TV. I don't think there is a particular style that will work for every team. It's a horses for courses type deal. Happily, the Roos/Goodwin arrangement seems to be working for us.

I'd prefer Brendan McCartney down on the bench given he works hands on at training with the players at every session. I'd prefer Roos up in the box overseeing the entire team of coaches as that's his role. 

Certainly horses for courses. But I do enjoy how Goodwin is assuming more of the duties but Roos still takes the responsibility. 

If this is the best coaching controversy that the media can create for us this year then I think that shows the plan is working. 

[Adam The God 30,218]

10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'd prefer Brendan McCartney down on the bench given he works hands on at training with the players at every session. I'd prefer Roos up in the box overseeing the entire team of coaches as that's his role. 

Certainly horses for courses. But I do enjoy how Goodwin is assuming more of the duties but Roos still takes the responsibility. 

If this is the best coaching controversy that the media can create for us this year then I think that shows the plan is working. 

I don't know the inner dynamics, but having Roos and McCartney on the bench during the NAB Challenge seemed to work alright.

[binman 42,884]

4 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I think you're misinterpreting King's comments.  I don't think he's saying that Goodwin is the sole creator of the offensive game plan but he's saying that he is the communicator of it.  And the players are responding to his message.  Personally I think it is necessary for the players to get a consistent message because we all know that different teachers teaching the same theory can have different results.  Goodwin's teaching is working, why change it?

My view is that if Roos does become the main communicator to the group he by his very nature will change the message.  He is primarily a defensive coach, that is not the GP anymore.  Roos has many strengths and has been fantastic for this club but I think he should let Goodwin continue with game day and training.

I don't understand the hate of King.  Personally I find him challenging.  He doesn't always present the popular view and he has been critical of MFC which seems to consign you to the dustbin here regardless of the merit of his comments.

 

No disrespect Bob but i think you're a bit wide of the mark here as is David King. As RPFC intimates Goodwin is responsible for elements of the game plan related to ball movement and has been since he arrived. Last year he took a lot of the training sessions and it would appear this year has taken the bulk of them.

The only real differences so far this year is that they are implementing a more aggressive ball movement (which has been characterized as Goodwin's game plan when in reality is no doubt a collective call) and he took the reins in the NAB games. 

In terms of communication i can't see anything changing this year at all and i'm not sure what you mean by Roos becoming the main communicator. Goodwin will continue to communicate his strategic messages at training and in reality there is little communication from the head coach to players during a game other than brief motivational speeches (which Roos is a master of) and reinforcing areas to focus on. The rest of the time the line coaches (including Goodwin) are communicating with the players.

I vehemently disagree that Goodwin should take over on game day (as i've said i think you'll find Goodwin has already largely taken over training). Roos is the head coach, and should  be the game day coach with Goodwin as his head assistant. Yes Roos is focused on defense however i think you - and for that matter King - do him a grave disservice to suggest he is beyond adapting his approach to a modern strategy. 

I don't mind commentators criticizing the demons but King is paid to analyse football and his suggestion Roos should step down and hand over the reigns is, in my view typical of his simplistic and surprisingly ill informed analysis. 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by binman

[Sideshow Bob 2,365]

18 minutes ago, binman said:

No disrespect Bob but i think you're a bit wide of the mark here as is David King. As RPFC intimates Goodwin is responsible for elements of the game plan related to ball movement and has been since he arrived. Last year he took a lot of the training sessions and it would appear this year has taken the bulk of them.

The only real differences so far this year is that they are implementing a more aggressive ball movement (which has been characterized as Goodwin's game plan when in reality is no doubt a collective call) and he took the reins in the NAB games. 

In terms of communication i can't see anything changing this year at all and i'm not sure what you mean by Roos becoming the main communicator. Goodwin will continue to communicate his strategic messages at training and in reality there is little communication from the head coach to players during a game other than brief motivational speeches (which Roos is a master of) and reinforcing areas to focus on. The rest of the time the line coaches (including Goodwin) are communicating with the players.

I vehemently disagree that Goodwin should take over on game day (as i've said i think you'll find Goodwin has already largely taken over training). Roos is the head coach, and should  be the game day coach with Goodwin as his head assistant. Yes Roos is focused on defense however i think you - and for that matter King - do him a grave disservice to suggest he is beyond adapting his approach to a modern strategy. 

I don't mind commentators criticizing the demons but King is paid to analyse football and his suggestion Roos should step down and hand over the reigns is, in my view typical of his simplistic and surprisingly ill informed analysis. 

 

Bingo. Perfectly sums up my thought Binman

[rpfc 28,381]

1 hour ago, AdamFarr said:

I agree with a lot of this, but why do people keep taking it for granted that Roos will be in the box? I think he'll be on the boundary line ala his final year at the Swans and th NAB Challenge.

Further, I'd argue being the calmest isn't the most important traits in a modern day coach. I've got a good mate who has worked at Hawthorn for the past decade and he says Clarkson loses his nut. We've also seen this multiple times on TV. I don't think there is a particular style that will work for every team. It's a horses for courses type deal. Happily, the Roos/Goodwin arrangement seems to be working for us.

I was using 'back in the box' as a euphemism for The Head Coach.

 

If Roos didn't give Goodwin 'the reigns' in the NAB Challenge and we still played the way we did - would anyone be calling for the change to Goodwin to be hastened?

[Willmoy1947 4,085]

Plus that Kingy wants Goodwin, who just maybe has got "the attacking game plan", to take over from one of the "Blues Bros" when North don't get anywhere this year either.

I reckon if you asked around the traps you would find that Goodwin is highly regarded in his short stint at the top end so far.

[Adam The God 30,218]

25 minutes ago, rpfc said:

If Roos didn't give Goodwin 'the reigns' in the NAB Challenge and we still played the way we did - would anyone be calling for the change to Goodwin to be hastened?

I think it's quite likely if it didn't appear that Goodwin had taken more of a front and centre role (something Roos and the FD have been clear to underline), the media and supporters alike may well have been making ugly noises about switching from Roos to Goodwin, just as things appear to be clicking with the former.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

On 17/03/2016 at 7:20 PM, Deecisive said:

injuries will still play a part on which sides are going to go up and who goes down, as usual.  The tigers suffered quite a few injuries in the NAB cup match a couple more will really hurt their chances.  While collingwood has looked reasonable, I still think they may have trouble kicking goals, the dogs were killing them until the just stopped and collingwood ran over the top. I think we can score 10+ wins and thankfully we have a bit more depth than in previous years, but injuries to some of our key players could keep our wins down.  Last year we through games away that we could have won and won games that no one gave a chance to win.  This year we should be able to show that we have turned the corner and will be a threat in future years.

I dont think Collingwood will have trouble scoring but their defence will leak heaps of goals, of any team to win at least 1 win in the nab challenge they had the worst defence.

[What 18,810]

Terry Wallace season preview for the MFC   

 

[SaberFang 7,151]

Pretty fair assessment. I think it'll take until next year to play finals as well. The team needs a solid season together to build cohesion as a unit. Petracca hasn't even played a game.

[Deecisive 1,709]

Agreed wallaces assessment was pretty good. I could not find too much to argue with. We will do well this year, but this is still the start of a journey for our young team, next few years should see us play finals.
 

[Skuit 10,031]

Most semantic thread ever. i think everyone is practically in agreement. Let in unfold as it is.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

4 hours ago, binman said:

No disrespect Bob but i think you're a bit wide of the mark here as is David King.

Look, I'll have one more go and call it quits.  I'm worried about the change in the communicator.  I don't give a stuff who is responsible for ball movement, game plan, defence.  I want the players to get the message they've been getting all preseason.  I want consistency.  It's not a criticism of Roos, it's praise for our future coach Goodwin.

And I've no issue with people disagreeing with me on these sort of issues, that's what forums are for.  I copped it when I questioned Neeld in his first few weeks and I copped it for months and perhaps years when I questioned Schwab, McLardy, Stynes and others.

I just think so many have this blind love of Roos anything that questions any aspect of him is rejected, not based on the merit of the argument but because most just want Roos to be coach.  I get that.  But I think King raises a very valid question.  Each to their own.

[Chook 15,012]

17 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Look, I'll have one more go and call it quits.  I'm worried about the change in the communicator.  I don't give a stuff who is responsible for ball movement, game plan, defence.  I want the players to get the message they've been getting all preseason.  I want consistency.  It's not a criticism of Roos, it's praise for our future coach Goodwin.

And I've no issue with people disagreeing with me on these sort of issues, that's what forums are for.  I copped it when I questioned Neeld in his first few weeks and I copped it for months and perhaps years when I questioned Schwab, McLardy, Stynes and others.

I just think so many have this blind love of Roos anything that questions any aspect of him is rejected, not based on the merit of the argument but because most just want Roos to be coach.  I get that.  But I think King raises a very valid question.  Each to their own.

Let's just say you're due to be wrong then.

[dazzledavey36 54,844]

Terry Wallace is actually a Melbourne supporter today.. Spoke to him when was up here for holidays and he rates us and the talent that Roosy and co have brought in. He watches TAC footy and he has seen the likes of Hogan Brayshaw Oliver Petracca so he knows what the club is in for.

Got huge respect for Plough. If anyone saw his list analysis against St Kilda last year he will know he was absolutely spot on and he chose us over the saints as the best young talent.

[binman 42,884]

26 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Look, I'll have one more go and call it quits.  I'm worried about the change in the communicator.  I don't give a stuff who is responsible for ball movement, game plan, defence.  I want the players to get the message they've been getting all preseason.  I want consistency.  It's not a criticism of Roos, it's praise for our future coach Goodwin.

And I've no issue with people disagreeing with me on these sort of issues, that's what forums are for.  I copped it when I questioned Neeld in his first few weeks and I copped it for months and perhaps years when I questioned Schwab, McLardy, Stynes and others.

I just think so many have this blind love of Roos anything that questions any aspect of him is rejected, not based on the merit of the argument but because most just want Roos to be coach.  I get that.  But I think King raises a very valid question.  Each to their own.

Alright Bob, i'll also have one more go and call it quits.

My point was there is no change in the communicator. The players will continue getting exactly the same message they have been getting for the last 18 months. There is complete consistency in the message. To think otherwise suggests a somewhat limited and unsophisticated view on what is occurring at the MFC. I think King has this view - i wouldn't have thought you would share this perspective but i guess i could be wrong on that.

[What 18,810]

For this interested in fantasy Footy

 

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2016-03-17/fantasy-preview-melbourne

[Tessaract 66]

A house divided... Time to close ranks, we are after all looking for the same result which is to win on Saturday and every week thereafter. Diversity of opinion makes us strong and equally has the capacity to confound us all to no good end. This week I'm  going to focus on the thorough  planning, superb management, desperate hard work and vastly improving culture of this brilliant organization Mfc.  We  can win and I anticipate  a red hot crack and I can't wait...only 6 more sleeps. We are family.

[Gator 17,332]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Alright Bob, i'll also have one more go and call it quits.

My point was there is no change in the communicator. The players will continue getting exactly the same message they have been getting for the last 18 months. There is complete consistency in the message. To think otherwise suggests a somewhat limited and unsophisticated view on what is occurring at the MFC. I think King has this view - i wouldn't have thought you would share this perspective but i guess i could be wrong on that.

My Nephew knocks around with a number of Melbourne players.  They respect Roos, but love Goodwin.  They relate to Goodwin's communication skills more than any coach they've had. 

I love what Roos has done for this club, but can't wait for Goodwin to be in charge.  It will be a fantastic handover and I hope Roos takes a more managerial role and allows Goodwin to keep being the main voice they hear. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by ProDee

[Skuit 10,031]

Godwin is like a relief teacher. Good cop bad cop. Let's keep it up.

[ChaserJ 5,083]

On 18/03/2016 at 1:38 PM, Peter Griffen said:

The biggest difference between us and the Saints in my opinion is they're still relying on the older blokes, Roo, Joey, Steven, Armatidge, fisher and Dempster to really be the core of the team, ours has kind of been handed on the most part over to our young guys, Viney, Hogan, Tyson, Mcdonaly, Gawn, Brayshaw and co, with Jones and Vince this year playing an important but less vital role, so i think we are about two years ahead of where they are in terms of chasing a flag. 

having said that i don't think 2016 will be a year where we see a heap more wins and play finals, i still think we lack a quality partner for Jesse, some outside class and speed and our delivery out of the back line is still a bit to shaking to consistently beat good teams just yet. but i see us as an 8-12 win team, depending on how things go, but the big improvement i think will be close we get in our losses, i think we are now a team that won't be blown away and will put up a real fight every week regardless of who we play and where we play.

I also don't think the Saints have recruited all that well, Billings is a gun, but Dunstan i see as being solid but nothing special, McCartin is going to take some time and the jury is out, same with Goddard,

in terms of the young talent

 

• Tyson
• Viney
• Brayshaw
• Petracca
• Hogan
• Gawn
• Mcdonald
• Kent
• Salem
• Oliver
• Weiderman
• Trengove
• Stretch
• Harmes

 

 

• Billings
• Mcartin
• Bruce
• Goddard
• Hickey
• Dunstan 
• Gresham
• Lonie

Not sure i fi am missing any, but on exposed form i think our young players are miles better and will take the club forwrd, i am not convinced the saints have anything like the group to do that, still rely on the old blokes, 

 

Bruce and Billings are the only two on that list i believe would be certains in their next finals team, maybe lonie

Pretty much agree with your assessment. I'd add to that Saints list Dan McKenzie, Blake Acres and maybe Nathan Freeman. Jack Sinclair looked a decent find too, but not sure how high his ceiling is. Not available this year, but Carlisle is the same age as Gawn & Trengove, so he probably should be there for Saints too.