THE BOMBERS' SWISS ADVENTURE

[Chris 2,892]

8 hours ago, mo64 said:

In fairness to Heppell, he was a 19yo kid  in his 2nd year of football, so was hardly in a position to question authority. Hal Hunter had the same view at the time that everything was kosher. The real fault lies with the senior players or leadership group. They did raise questions, but chose to accept the BS spun by those overseeing the program rather than seeking external assurances via the AFLPA.

Sorry but that is bull. We expect 12 year old gymnasts to stick to the standards so why not a MAN playing AFL?

[hemingway 7,601]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

Ernest a long time ago my father told me never act in anger. I have seen nothing in the interim to suggest he was wrong.

A very wise father and it has obviously held you in good stead. And you are as usual right 

[bing181 8,226]

7 hours ago, mo64 said:

Easier said than done when you are in a team environment and still trying to find your way. 

I have no issue with Heppell or any other young player copping their full whack from WADA, but it's easy to see how a young player would just tow the line.

Some of the players coming through the under-age comps have commented on this, noting that from early on it's hammered home to them that what goes into your body is your responsibility, and your responsibility alone. Heppell, like all of them, knew what his responsibilities were, irrespective of age or experience.

[mo64 5,260]

49 minutes ago, Chris said:

Sorry but that is bull. We expect 12 year old gymnasts to stick to the standards so why not a MAN playing AFL?

You missed the point. Just as I wouldn't expect a 12 year gymnast to question their coach or trainer, I wouldn't expect a 2nd year AFL player to question the methods of a football dept. They may raise concerns with their senior teammates, and you'd expect them to raise the concerns with the FD. As I said, that shouldn't lessen the penalty. 

[Strapping Young Lad 227]

This whole thing is Essendon's board and coaching staffs fault. This turd of a club owes it to their players embroiled, both past and present to support them in every way possible. Even if it means they close the doors at that sh!te club doing so. And the AFL can go eat a bag of dicks too for not standing for the right ones involved, support the players and punish the idiots who brought in this "cutting edge" sports science [censored]!
I am growing tired of listen to the Bomber fans that I know, droning on and on about the plight of Hird and they are hard done by... The guy is a criminal and failed the team by not protecting them. His selfish behavior about this, is a slap in the face to anyone that want to see justice here.

Essendon is like a giant septic tank, where all the biggest turds float to the top.

Its about time the tank got flushed out.

 

[daisycutter 28,684]

27 minutes ago, hemingway said:

A very wise father and it has obviously held you in good stead. And you are as usual right 

well ernest, lets hope he's not right about him leaving his mortal coil before our next premiership 

[Chris 2,892]

24 minutes ago, mo64 said:

You missed the point. Just as I wouldn't expect a 12 year gymnast to question their coach or trainer, I wouldn't expect a 2nd year AFL player to question the methods of a football dept. They may raise concerns with their senior teammates, and you'd expect them to raise the concerns with the FD. As I said, that shouldn't lessen the penalty. 

But i would expect a 12 year old to question their coach when it comes to medications or suppliments, you are trained to not trust anyone but WADA or the national affiliate. Any sport or organisation that takes this seriously makes sure the athletes do not trust these people with these things. You are trained to even question your doctor and any doctor who knows anything about this makes sure their patient does their own checks. I did that as a teen when not yet an adult, why cant we expect it from these men? That is a rhetorical question as the answer lies in the ancient boys club culture across the entire AFL.

[mo64 5,260]

7 minutes ago, Chris said:

But i would expect a 12 year old to question their coach when it comes to medications or suppliments, you are trained to not trust anyone but WADA or the national affiliate. Any sport or organisation that takes this seriously makes sure the athletes do not trust these people with these things. You are trained to even question your doctor and any doctor who knows anything about this makes sure their patient does their own checks. I did that as a teen when not yet an adult, why cant we expect it from these men? That is a rhetorical question as the answer lies in the ancient boys club culture across the entire AFL.

I agree, but it's easier said than done. Can you imagine an up and coming sportsperson who's part of systemic performance enhancing regime (think East German female sprinters or Bulgarian weightlifters or Essendon FC). They're not interested in the individual athlete, just the end result. If you don't want to be part of it, we'll find someone who will.

The instigators are the real criminals in all this, but the players need to be suspended because they've received the benefits. For a player to say they've done nothing wrong is fanciful, but they have a case to apportion blame for their mistakes.

[old dee 22,982]

30 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

well ernest, lets hope he's not right about him leaving his mortal coil before our next premiership 

I don't have the slightest fear that it is untrue dc.

It is very difficult for the a small club like the MFC to win a GF in the 21st century.

The best I can hope for is for the MFC to play finals into the second week.

[Chris 2,892]

13 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I agree, but it's easier said than done. Can you imagine an up and coming sportsperson who's part of systemic performance enhancing regime (think East German female sprinters or Bulgarian weightlifters or Essendon FC). They're not interested in the individual athlete, just the end result. If you don't want to be part of it, we'll find someone who will.

The instigators are the real criminals in all this, but the players need to be suspended because they've received the benefits. For a player to say they've done nothing wrong is fanciful, but they have a case to apportion blame for their mistakes.

It would be tough in these circumstances but that is the expectation and they are told that. It all comes down to the culture of the sport or organisation to allow and encourage this to happen. The AFL have been sorely lacking in that department.

[beelzebub 22,324]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

Ernest a long time ago my father told me never act in anger. I have seen nothing in the interim to suggest he was wrong.

Don't act in it...but perhaps because of it 

[hemingway 7,601]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

It would be tough in these circumstances but that is the expectation and they are told that. It all comes down to the culture of the sport or organisation to allow and encourage this to happen. The AFL have been sorely lacking in that department.

A really good point Chris. The AFL was asleep on its watch, in particular, a certain gent of Greek heritage. I still remember hearing him on 774 one morning some years back rubbishing cycling and its culture of doping, saying that would never happen in AFL because of cultural differences but alluding to the fact that the difference was also due to AFL governance and management. The inference being that the AFL would not allow it to happen.

[Mazer Rackham 14,970]

49 minutes ago, hemingway said:

The inference being that the AFL would not allow it to happen.

He meant, the AFL would not allow anyone to find out about it if it did happen. That's "governance and management" AFL-style.

[Chris 2,892]

10 hours ago, hemingway said:

A really good point Chris. The AFL was asleep on its watch, in particular, a certain gent of Greek heritage. I still remember hearing him on 774 one morning some years back rubbishing cycling and its culture of doping, saying that would never happen in AFL because of cultural differences but alluding to the fact that the difference was also due to AFL governance and management. The inference being that the AFL would not allow it to happen.

The whole AFL management really has been embarrassing for a long while. The attitude you describe is also not the one needed but I don't think they will ever get it. What they need is for the clubs to pass the onus onto the players and create an environment where they feel responsible and empowered to ensure they are clean. What the AFL want to do is make sure the players are isolated from their responsibilities and try and pass the responsibility off to the clubs and club doctors. Was always a recipe for disaster.

Hopefully this may change a little now but the dinosaurs in AFL land can't seem to reconcile how you could have a one in all in club environment while having personal responsibility. It really is very easy to have both.

[Chris 2,892]

Bomber Thompson has gone on one of the great deluded rants about WADA. Worth a read in the hun just for a laugh. Apparently WADA just twisted a few old things around and didnt know what the players took and they are the ones who treated the players badly. The funniest was him saying WADA don't care about Aussie rules or the players. Hahahahaha. I've got news for you bomber, WADA don't need to care about the sport and they certainly don't care about cheats!

Edited March 23, 2016 by Chris
spelling

[biggestred 4,377]

I would argue that WADA ASADA and CAS are the only ones that actually do care about AFL as they have not only ensured clean sport into the future but also that no other players are ever injected with unknown substances.

[monoccular 16,394]

On 21 March 2016 at 9:21 PM, Wells 11 said:

I missed it..cant get the ABC where I live. Anything new?

 

Does anyone know if ABC publish transcripts any more, as well as ivied?

On 21 March 2016 at 10:04 PM, Delusional demon 82 said:

According to Heppell those that call them drug cheats are "uneducated on the situation "

Generic statements that he feels comfortable with what they were given and that it was 100% above board ... no further details to elaborate on that and why wada have it so wrong 

Delusion has now reached new heights 

Journalistic integrity gone out the window... These guys just let these deluded clowns deny their culpability without holding their denials and lies to some form of accountability . 

 

I have tried to look up the side effects of these poorly defined drugs - was looking to see if "delusional behavior / denial" were listed  

Main problem is that the drugs are not on the human consumption list

On 21 March 2016 at 10:06 PM, george_on_the_outer said:

Nothing really new in the Four Corners report that we don't know already.

It's a pity the revelations made about what the players were probably injected with, is not something that will cause anyone to be charged criminally.

But on the programme:

Ben McDevitt from ASADA claimed peptides were sourced from Mexico, not New Mexico that Dank claims.

A player saw a vial marked with "for equine use only" before being injected.

A cocktail of peptides and vitamins included drugs used in the horse industry in the USA

Players were injected with drugs obtained by a muscular dystrophy patient overseas.

Peptides sourced from a research facility in china.  Approval given "not for human use".

Ziggy Switkowski in his original report to Essendon spoke of a pharmacological experiment.  He was right on that aspect.

 

and a human experiment totally outside the Helsinki Declaration of Human Experimentation   This aspect has never been pursued by any journalist, but I guess that is largely due to the fact that there are no true investigative journalists covering AFL   

On 21 March 2016 at 10:37 AM, hemingway said:

 

Ted your so right and Bub, I think Heppell is not only a pawn in the game but just can't admit to the ugly truth. It's no different from any drug cheat. The strong ones with moral strength can come out and say, yes, I did it, but as we know, there are many more who do not have the moral or psychological strength to come out and admit their wrongdoing.  I think most of the players are only now waking up to the truth and the impact that EFC disgraceful conduct is having on them personally.  My anger comes in waves. 4 corners has awakened my anger towards the EFC and its sheer dishonesty in its dealings together with its total ambivalence to what it was doing and the potential catastrophic health impact on the players. Those who orchestrated the program to those who were in the know stand condemned for ever and a day.  My anger over the injection regime has grown as I have seen the way the club has dealt with it. It's cover up, it's refusal to do the right thing by its players, it's supporters, and by the game. It's telling all the mums and dads out there together with the young boys out there who dream of playing AFL footy that it is okay to take drugs, to cheat, and if caught, to blame others and todeny all wrongdoing. More and more the Presidency of Little, yes, he was a little man in terms of moral rectitude and standards, looks to be a disaster. May the club well rue the day, that David Evans stepped away from his role in the club. But for all those people in the know who stood by and did nothing through misguided loyalty, mate-ship, fear, personal and financial loss, they will forever remain condemned. It is no different in moral terms to the worst atrocities in modern history including this country's actions towards refugees. If people through misguided loyalty or indifference do nothing, we all stand condemned. If MFC ever did what the EFC did, I would walk away from the MFC for ever. Some things cannot be traded or reconciled. The AFLs management if this issue should also be condemned by its total failure to set a clear and unambiguous standard for the future of the game. The silence from all the clubs including our own has also been disappointing to say the least.  Rant over.

And I know of EFC folk who have walked away from EFC, and sine from AFL altogether    

On 22 March 2016 at 8:09 PM, bing181 said:

Some of the players coming through the under-age comps have commented on this, noting that from early on it's hammered home to them that what goes into your body is your responsibility, and your responsibility alone. Heppell, like all of them, knew what his responsibilities were, irrespective of age or experience.

I have known a few TAC and wannabe TAC players, and they are very conscious of this.

I know of an elite sportswoman who after significant surgery would not accept pain or nausea relief without checking specifically with her ASADA contact first

Of course they knew what they were doing was at best, questionable.  Were it not it would not have been done under cover off site.   

[Mazer Rackham 14,970]

Transcript: 4 Corners "Whatever it takes"

It's worth watching however just to see the look on Charter's face as he admits that, um, yeah, they're not meant for human consumption.

But no worries! It's WADA who got it wrong! They don't understand!

[M_9 1,793]

 Essendon supplements saga: Expert reveals possible health breaches
 

"A leading expert on sports supplements has outlined the possible health ramifications the Essendon players involved in the club's 2012 supplements program could face.

 

Bradley Clark, a master of human factors engineering and health science, has produced a risk assessment for players given drugs which form part of the thymosin group.

 

He based the document on the peptide thymomodulin, which isn't banned but could pose major health issues depending on what was in the drug. ...."

 

 

 

[Chris 2,892]

14 hours ago, M_9 said:

 Essendon supplements saga: Expert reveals possible health breaches

"A leading expert on sports supplements has outlined the possible health ramifications the Essendon players involved in the club's 2012 supplements program could face.

 

Bradley Clark, a master of human factors engineering and health science, has produced a risk assessment for players given drugs which form part of the thymosin group.

 

He based the document on the peptide thymomodulin, which isn't banned but could pose major health issues depending on what was in the drug. ...."

From the article

"The positive effects of thymosin beta-4 are cell regeneration and repair, in a manner similar to an anabolic steroid."

And the delusionals still maintain TB4 isn't performance enhancing and is harmless!

[biggestred 4,377]

Clark says the "pertinent questions" the players need to ask are whether they have had a chronic minor cough, mood swings, skin itches and rashes, depression - which he cites former Bomber Jake Carlisle as being liable to - gastro issues or inexplicable diarrhoea or vision issues, as a result of the injecting regime.

Carlisle's lawyers have linked his off-season drug use with the trauma of his last three years at Essendon.

Clark also asks whether the partners of the players had a miscarriage during the program.

Clark has outlined 51 materials which could have made up the drug. He writes that "the chance there was one of these diseases in the thymomodulin [if it came from China] is real".

 

 

 

God help essendon if any of their wags have a miscarriage 

[Lucifers Hero 37,323]

The doomed appeal to Swiss Fed Court has hit another hurdle for the players: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-saga-written-submissions-only-for-swiss-appeal-20160401-gnw7r6.html  According to CAS it is unlikely to get a judgement before the end of August.

The appeal of Australian sport's most highly charged doping case will be judged without an oral hearing following a Swiss court instruction that it will only consider written argument about 34 banned Essendon players...Legal counsel at the AFL Players' Association, which has guided the suspended footballers through a three-year ordeal but now entrusted the appeal execution to Swiss lawyers, had been unaware of the procedural mechanics.

After 3 years of bumbling and poor advice to players AFLPA's legal eagles incompetency continues.  How could they not know the most basic mechanics of the appeal process ie only written hearings.

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[Wells 11 4,873]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

The doomed appeal to Swiss Fed Court has hit another hurdle for the players: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-saga-written-submissions-only-for-swiss-appeal-20160401-gnw7r6.html  According to CAS it is unlikely to get a judgement before the end of August.

The appeal of Australian sport's most highly charged doping case will be judged without an oral hearing following a Swiss court instruction that it will only consider written argument about 34 banned Essendon players...Legal counsel at the AFL Players' Association, which has guided the suspended footballers through a three-year ordeal but now entrusted the appeal execution to Swiss lawyers, had been unaware of the procedural mechanics.

After 3 years of bumbling and poor advice to players AFLPA's legal eagles incompetency continues.  How could they not know the most basic mechanics of the appeal process ie only written hearings.

 

I think it suits the club for it to be dragged out now.....lets them maintain the dignity of "some doubt" . except we all know there was none. Now they can say how hard done they have been all over again. By the time "guilty" comes around again everyone cares a whole lot less and the players have finished there suspension. 

[Lucifers Hero 37,323]

29 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

I think it suits the club for it to be dragged out now.....lets them maintain the dignity of "some doubt" . except we all know there was none. Now they can say how hard done they have been all over again. By the time "guilty" comes around again everyone cares a whole lot less and the players have finished there suspension. 

That is true.

It will all be front page news again when Jobe hands back his Brownlow and some of their best players leave, hopefully as Delisted FA's so EFC get no comp picks for them.

The AFL won't be impressed with an August/September Swiss Court decision - another finals season derailed!   

Jobe handing the Brownlow back may coincide perfectly with the 2016 one being issued.  Sweet irony

[beelzebub 22,324]

Seems the Windy Hill mob forgot to read the fine print.......about the fine print.

They still don't get it. Intnl courts...intnl protocols. 

Not sure the penny is ever going to drop.