THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[Dees2014 2,377]

That's bollocks BB. WADA's decision to appeal does not negate the accuracy of reds comments about the standing of the tribunal members and the fact that is offensive to suggest they were somehow complicit in a corrupt, rigged outcome

I think you're getting ahead of yourself

I don't think anyone is suggesting the Tribunal members were corrupt as such, but it is possible to chose Tribunal members who you know agree with you to ensure the outcome you want ( have a look at the ABBOTT Government - they are expert at it!).

The thing about CAS is for the first time in this whole affair it will be out of the control of the AFL which is the thing that scares them all the most. CAS will purely look at the case on the facts, and make judgements accordingly, without taking into account the wider issues of the interests of the competition as a whole (see my entry #540 on here where I canvass the implications of this at length). It is also the reason I suggest the AFL board are rumoured to be contemplating removing themselves from the WADA protocols -a catastrophe for the AFL and Australian sport in general if ever I have heard it if it happens. I'm sure wiser heads will prevail...

CAS will behave as they are required to do under their charter, ie enforce the WADA code without fear or favour. And that is as it should be. In the long term I have no doubt there will be substantial benefits for the AFL and its clubs by maintaining the integrity of its competition through WADA/CAS. It is just there is a good deal of pain to go through in the meantime.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dees2014

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

another interesting aspect

if they used excel for their spreadsheet, then every time they closed the spreadsheet the new spreadsheet is written as a new temp file, then when completed, original file is deleted, then temp file is renamed to the original file.

therefore, assuming the spreadsheet was updated 1,000s of times (likely) there would be 1000,s of versions of that spreadsehet on disk. i.e. one active and 1000,s deleted

with such a heavily updated file, if you were trying to foil forensics you would keep the file on something like flash memory stick (easily destroyed).

alternatively if kept on the laptop's hard drive you'd need to remove and destroy the hard drive to be perfectly safe or use some easily available heavy duty disk cleansing tools, but just removing hard drive would be quickest and probably cheapest

assuming it was dank's laptop he'd probably have just taken it with him.

if he gave copies to anyone at ess he would be smart enough to keep them off the corporate servers, and probably used flash mem sticks. these could be quickly disappeared.

i'd be very surprised too, if dank hasn't still got a copy for his own use

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,502]

In my view the argument that the AFL chose its Tribunal members to get a particular outcome doesn't stack up. It would have been obvious to the AFL that if the AFL Tribunal was seen to be somehow biased or deliberately chosen to deliver a particular outcome that WADA would appeal. Therefore, the AFL would not have gone down this path. Of all the possible reasons WADA has for appealing the AFL Tribunal decision, I anticipate bias of the Tribunal is not one of them.

[Dees2014 2,377]

In my view the argument that the AFL chose its Tribunal members to get a particular outcome doesn't stack up. It would have been obvious to the AFL that if the AFL Tribunal was seen to be somehow biased or deliberately chosen to deliver a particular outcome that WADA would appeal. Therefore, the AFL would not have gone down this path. Of all the possible reasons WADA has for appealing the AFL Tribunal decision, I anticipate bias of the Tribunal is not one of them.

Not directl bias no - but their view about burden of proof was certainly an issue. For example, as Gerard Whatekey said the other night, if CAS had have adopted the same burden of proof against Lance Armstrong as the AFL Tribunal required of ASADA, then Armstrong would never have been found guilty. If that is bias, then yes they are guilty of bias. For me, I prefer to see it as a particular interpretation of the rules, which I'm am sure the AFL were very much aware they would adopt it when they appointed them, which guaranteed the outcome they were looking for.

Fortunately, it is not CAS's normal burden of proof, and won't be when the international Arbitrators take their place in the coming CAS hearing into the Essendon case.

As whateley also said, "the adults have now arrived, and this is getting serious" . To which I say "here her - at last!"

[monoccular 16,290]

My recollection of the AFL agreeing to be under the WADA code was that federal government funding was at risk, including money to be spent on stadiums.

If the AFL forged ahead without WADA it would be the beginning of the end of the AFL as the number 1 code in Australia.

A League are already becoming increasingly popular: I wonder if the AFL wall has started to crack already? This two year charade, instigated by Vlad and perpetuated by Gil has had a devastating effect on what Vlad used to love referring to as "the integrity of th game"!

I know that I used to love watching Friday night football but will not tomorrow. I just cannot look at those unmitigated cheats strutting the field, especially with the shots of the smug number in the coaching box. Will watch some replays of recent games between fairly competing teams on my laptop.

[sue 8,463]

In my view the argument that the AFL chose its Tribunal members to get a particular outcome doesn't stack up. It would have been obvious to the AFL that if the AFL Tribunal was seen to be somehow biased or deliberately chosen to deliver a particular outcome that WADA would appeal. Therefore, the AFL would not have gone down this path. Of all the possible reasons WADA has for appealing the AFL Tribunal decision, I anticipate bias of the Tribunal is not one of them.

They don't necessarily have to chose Tribunal members for a particular outcome, just chose members who are sympathetic to the AFL generally. And then hope they will deliver the AFL-preferred verdict if there is enough doubt to allow the members to make that decision without looking obviously biased.

But what about David Jones? Am I wrong that he previously showed a tendency to deliver the AFL's preferred outcomes when he let Barry Hall off to play in a final when anyone else, including Hall at any other time, would have got suspended.

ed to add: I agree WADA would not use bias in an appeal. There is no legal evidence of it.

Edited May 14, 2015 by sue

[beelzebub 22,269]

Barry Hall says hi !!

[Chris 2,892]

I don't think anyone is suggesting the Tribunal members were corrupt as such, but it is possible to chose Tribunal members who you know agree with you to ensure the outcome you want ( have a look at the ABBOTT Government - they are expert at it!).

The thing about CAS is for the first time in this whole affair it will be out of the control of the AFL which is the thing that scares them all the most. CAS will purely look at the case on the facts, and make judgements accordingly, without taking into account the wider issues of the interests of the competition as a whole (see my entry #540 on here where I canvass the implications of this at length). It is also the reason I suggest the AFL board are rumoured to be contemplating removing themselves from the WADA protocols -a catastrophe for the AFL and Australian sport in general if ever I have heard it if it happens. I'm sure wiser heads will prevail...

CAS will behave as they are required to do under their charter, ie enforce the WADA code without fear or favour. And that is as it should be. In the long term I have no doubt there will be substantial benefits for the AFL and its clubs by maintaining the integrity of its competition through WADA/CAS. It is just there is a good deal of pain to go through in the meantime.

If the AFL remove itself from the WADA code then the Dees will be getting a very polite letter explaining why they are now in possession of every piece of Demons merch I have, and how I will no longer be following the club or the sport, but thanks for sometimes good memories.

[Chris 2,892]

In my view the argument that the AFL chose its Tribunal members to get a particular outcome doesn't stack up. It would have been obvious to the AFL that if the AFL Tribunal was seen to be somehow biased or deliberately chosen to deliver a particular outcome that WADA would appeal. Therefore, the AFL would not have gone down this path. Of all the possible reasons WADA has for appealing the AFL Tribunal decision, I anticipate bias of the Tribunal is not one of them.

It is not bias of the tribunal that was at play though. It was choosing tribunal members who would by the hardest to convince. It is why they put in Jones as head, he has worked with criminal law for a long time so is very used to dealing with beyond reasonable doubt. I wont accuse him of bias, or not fulfilling his role to the best of his abilities, but he did set the burden of proof very high (and the cynic in me says that is by AFL design), and both WADA and ASADA have said as much, along with many lawyers.

You have to remember, the AFL is very good at being too clever for its own good.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,044]

another interesting aspect

if they used excel for their spreadsheet, then every time they closed the spreadsheet the new spreadsheet is written as a new temp file, then when completed, original file is deleted, then temp file is renamed to the original file.

therefore, assuming the spreadsheet was updated 1,000s of times (likely) there would be 1000,s of versions of that spreadsehet on disk. i.e. one active and 1000,s deleted

with such a heavily updated file, if you were trying to foil forensics you would keep the file on something like flash memory stick (easily destroyed).

alternatively if kept on the laptop's hard drive you'd need to remove and destroy the hard drive to be perfectly safe or use some easily available heavy duty disk cleansing tools, but just removing hard drive would be quickest and probably cheapest

assuming it was dank's laptop he'd probably have just taken it with him.

if he gave copies to anyone at ess he would be smart enough to keep them off the corporate servers, and probably used flash mem sticks. these could be quickly disappeared.

i'd be very surprised too, if dank hasn't still got a copy for his own use

I know no more than anyone else (and probably less ), but I am beginning to wonder whether such records do exist. I agree with various comments in this thread that any sensible person in Dank's or Essendon's position would keep very detailed records. However, it strikes me that maybe Dank thinks himself above such mere bookkeeping, being one who knows exactly what he is doing, and hence doesn't really need to keep accurate records. That would perhaps explain why he says he left all the records at Essenson (and also as a way of focusing heat on them rather than himself). Just a thought ...

[Dees2014 2,377]

If the AFL remove itself from the WADA code then the Dees will be getting a very polite letter explaining why they are now in possession of every piece of Demons merch I have, and how I will no longer be following the club or the sport, but thanks for sometimes good memories.

Chris, Your sentiments are laudable. Any move by the AFL in this direction by the AFL I have no doubt would disillusion many many supporters, let alone the Federal Government. It would be extremely stupid if it happened, but I think it is a measure of the desperation of the AFL they may be even considering it. The whole issue post Evans sacking and Hird's coup, has been handled appallingly by the AFL, and have continuously given in to Hird's grandstanding and propaganda., and it has come back to bite them big time. Unfortunately the competition may be hurt in the meantime, which they have largely brought on themselves. .

None of this reflects well on Gillon McLaughlan who as 2IC of the AFL had charge of this process, and now of course oversees it as CEO. I would not be surprised to see heads roll at the AFL as a result of this debacle, and Gillon should be first in line.

[ManDee 7,091]

Chris, I couldn't agree more. I'm not suggesting I agree with this - in fact very much disagree - but I think it is a measure of the desperation of the AFL that it may have come to this. The whole issue post Evans sacking and Hird's coup, has been handled appallingly by the AFL, and have continuously given in to Hird's grandstanding and propaganda., and it has come back to bite them big time. Unfortunately the competition may be hurt in the meantime, which they have largely brought on themselves. .

None of this reflects well on Gillan Mclaughlan who as 2IC of the AFL had charge of this process, and now of course oversees it as CEO. I would not be surprised to see heads roll at the AFL as a result of this debacle, and Gillan should be first in line.

dees2014 I am confused, (More so than usual)

[beelzebub 22,269]

No one carryying on a program such as this could hope to keep above it all " just in their head"...even one as big as Donks. There's a record...somewhere. Its too valuable for its info to have been binned by the "Scientist". He'd think himself far too sneaky to get caught...hes above such little folk...he's "clever"

[beelzebub 22,269]

dees2014 I am confused, (More so than usual)

its ok ManDee.. we're bound to get dizzy at times in here

[ManDee 7,091]

[beelzebub 22,269]

A League are already becoming increasingly popular: I wonder if the AFL wall has started to crack already? This two year charade, instigated by Vlad and perpetuated by Gil has had a devastating effect on what Vlad used to love referring to as "the integrity of th game"!

I know that I used to love watching Friday night football but will not tomorrow. I just cannot look at those unmitigated cheats strutting the field, especially with the shots of the smug number in the coaching box. Will watch some replays of recent games between fairly competing teams on my laptop.

Now would be a marvelous time to abandon the correct path of ethics by continuing with WADA and instead strike out on ones own with unparalleled integrity !!!

[Chris 2,892]

dees2014 I am confused, (More so than usual)

So am I :/

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,502]

It is not bias of the tribunal that was at play though. It was choosing tribunal members who would by the hardest to convince. It is why they put in Jones as head, he has worked with criminal law for a long time so is very used to dealing with beyond reasonable doubt. I wont accuse him of bias, or not fulfilling his role to the best of his abilities, but he did set the burden of proof very high (and the cynic in me says that is by AFL design), and both WADA and ASADA have said as much, along with many lawyers.

You have to remember, the AFL is very good at being too clever for its own good.

Chris, just after deciding that you'd provided us with the line of the day, along comes Dees2014 with this pearler that knocks you into second place.

Chris, I couldn't agree more. I'm not suggesting I agree with this - in fact very much disagree - but I think it is a measure of the desperation of the AFL that it may have come to this. The whole issue post Evans sacking and Hird's coup, has been handled appallingly by the AFL, and have continuously given in to Hird's grandstanding and propaganda., and it has come back to bite them big time. Unfortunately the competition may be hurt in the meantime, which they have largely brought on themselves. .

None of this reflects well on Gillan Mclaughlan who as 2IC of the AFL had charge of this process, and now of course oversees it as CEO. I would not be surprised to see heads roll at the AFL as a result of this debacle, and Gillan should be first in line.

[daisycutter 28,640]

I know no more than anyone else (and probably less ), but I am beginning to wonder whether such records do exist. I agree with various comments in this thread that any sensible person in Dank's or Essendon's position would keep very detailed records. However, it strikes me that maybe Dank thinks himself above such mere bookkeeping, being one who knows exactly what he is doing, and hence doesn't really need to keep accurate records. That would perhaps explain why he says he left all the records at Essenson (and also as a way of focusing heat on them rather than himself). Just a thought ...

but he would keep records because he was always talking of his "research studies" and was always looking for future "opportunities"

besides, he would need to have records just to know where he was at, at any time during the process

34 players and dozens of s"supplements" at different dosages and cycle gets pretty complicated pretty quickly

no, he would be lost without accurate records

[jazza 1,323]

Hey,no pictures of Biff are allowed to be posted here.

[Willmoy1947 3,808]

There is merit in thinking that 17 other teams can call extraordinary meetings and it could be happening now.

Does someone have an idea of the strength of such a meeting in an AFL context.

What power would they have to say rescind motions that " the AFL might bring the AFL into disrepute"

[ManDee 7,091]

Hey,no pictures of Biff are allowed to be posted here.

Ok how about.

or

Sorry about an earlier gif posted before text popped up.

Edited May 14, 2015 by ManDee

[Lucifers Hero 37,227]

There is merit in thinking that 17 other teams can call extraordinary meetings and it could be happening now.

Does someone have an idea of the strength of such a meeting in an AFL context.

What power would they have to say rescind motions that " the AFL might bring the AFL into disrepute"

Something about 'biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind' so it would never happen.

Not only do AFL determine handouts they also have a huge say in who gets jobs in the football world. Not only is the AFL highly controlled it is also highly nepotistic - job for the boys stuff.

Some clubs might make noises but no-one would go to bat for the admirable principle you raise of" the AFL might bring the AFL into disrepute"

[Dees2014 2,377]

If the AFL remove itself from the WADA code then the Dees will be getting a very polite letter explaining why they are now in possession of every piece of Demons merch I have, and how I will no longer be following the club or the sport, but thanks for sometimes good memories.

Dees2014, on 14 May 2015 - 4:39 PM, said:

Chris, I couldn't agree more. I'm not suggesting I agree with this - in fact very much disagree - but I think it is a measure of the desperation of the AFL that it may have come to this. The whole issue post Evans sacking and Hird's coup, has been handled appallingly by the AFL, and have continuously given in to Hird's grandstanding and propaganda., and it has come back to bite them big time. Unfortunately the competition may be hurt in the meantime, which they have largely brought on themselves. .

None of this reflects well on Gillan Mclaughlan who as 2IC of the AFL had charge of this process, and now of course oversees it as CEO. I would not be surprised to see heads roll at the AFL as a result of this debacle, and Gillan should be first in line.

dees2014 I am confused, (More so than usual)

Sorry, that was an oxymoron special. That is what comes of writing these pieces on my iPad in the tram in the city between meetings!

Let me explain. In a piece I posted I suggested that the whole Essendon saga had been so incompetently handled by the AFL post the Evans resignation and the Hird coup, that the WADA action had painted them into a corner, which is reported to have caused some board members to consider removing themselves from the WADA protocols. To this Chris replied if they do that then I will send all his Dees club gear back and not support the AFL. That was what I was agreeing with.

What I was saying I didn't agree with was that they should be considering this move in the first place.

Sorry to all the demonlanders for the confusion and my red face. I promise to be more vigilant in the future.

The amended post reads the following:

"Chris, Your sentiments are laudable. Any move by the AFL in this direction by the AFL I have no doubt would disillusion many many supporters, let alone the Federal Government. It would be extremely stupid if it happened, but I think it is a measure of the desperation of the AFL they may be even considering it. The whole issue post Evans sacking and Hird's coup, has been handled appallingly by the AFL, and have continuously given in to Hird's grandstanding and propaganda., and it has come back to bite them big time. Unfortunately the competition may be hurt in the meantime, which they have largely brought on themselves. .

None of this reflects well on Gillon Mclaughlan who as 2IC of the AFL had charge of this process, and now of course oversees it as CEO. I would not be surprised to see heads roll at the AFL as a result of this debacle, and Gillon should be first in line"

[CBDees 3,162]

another interesting aspect

if they used excel for their spreadsheet, then every time they closed the spreadsheet the new spreadsheet is written as a new temp file, then when completed, original file is deleted, then temp file is renamed to the original file.

therefore, assuming the spreadsheet was updated 1,000s of times (likely) there would be 1000,s of versions of that spreadsehet on disk. i.e. one active and 1000,s deleted

with such a heavily updated file, if you were trying to foil forensics you would keep the file on something like flash memory stick (easily destroyed).

alternatively if kept on the laptop's hard drive you'd need to remove and destroy the hard drive to be perfectly safe or use some easily available heavy duty disk cleansing tools, but just removing hard drive would be quickest and probably cheapest

assuming it was dank's laptop he'd probably have just taken it with him.

if he gave copies to anyone at ess he would be smart enough to keep them off the corporate servers, and probably used flash mem sticks. these could be quickly disappeared.

i'd be very surprised too, if dank hasn't still got a copy for his own use

You seem to have just written a manual advising them of the way to overcome it.