The Incredible Hulk - Jesse Hogan

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

On 5/1/2016 at 9:30 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

Twice in 5 games isn't "time to time" though, it's 40% of games. Not saying things won't improve but that's how things are as they stand. 

compared to the 100% of games the Dockers have been [censored] in, plus they have to spend hours on a plane just to get belted. 

[Nasher 33,047]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Twice in 5 games isn't "time to time" though, it's 40% of games. Not saying things won't improve but that's how things are as they stand. 

I may be stating the obvious, but there are 8 teams in the competition who have the same or worse win/loss record as us at the moment.  If we reckon this loss to St Kilda was any worse than most of the losses that have occurred to any team this season, then I think we're getting carried away with the emotion/disappointment of losing a bit too much.

The Essendon one I accept was definitely a bad one.  

[Binmans PA 26,076]

10 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

I saw riewoldt kick 8 against us in a losing side in the early 2000s... When everyone knew he'd be a star but he was not quite there yet. We won, but somehow knew we wouldn't be winning a flag that year... And the saints left with big smiles on their faces. Fast forward almost 15 years and they're still smiling. Not as much as me though. The tables have turned. Just a mater of time now. And a matter of whether or not we can keep him in free agent era footy.

Riewoldt kicked 9 that day and we won by something like 8 or 9 goals. He's always played well against us and Hogan appears to like playing St Kilda. Nice post.

[dazzledavey36 48,751]

r

 

Follow

 

Jacqui Reed

 

✔ ‎@JacquiReed10

Jesse Hogan has turned up for scans on his finger. Pictures on @TenSportMelb tonight.

9:09 AM - 2 May 2016

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

15 hours ago, Nasher said:

All teams lose sometimes. If he leaves because we don't play at our best from time to time, he's in for a very frustrating and unfulfilling career.

Lose sometimes?

It would have absolutely nothing to do with losing sometimes. 

It would have a lot to do with the downfalls of periods of these games that are the reason we end up losing.

These are trends and are inherent problems that still exist within our current group and are visible to outsiders watching.

Why do you think during that third quarter capitulation, people say it's the 'same old Melbourne again'? Where does that come from? And what does that mean to people?

I can't understand these reductionist posts. 

Whilst Saturday's resulting 'loss' this early in the season is hardly worth crying about, it is the same patterns and trends that continue to concern. Why do so many seem to miss that? Quite obviously it's got nothing to do with 'one loss'.

I find it hard to believe that any supporter wouldn't think that Jesse wouldn't have those things on his mind in regards to how far this club can go and how far he can take his footy with this club. Especially given what he's endured since arriving and what he would be able to see on game day in regards to old habits and new.

Again, supporters are kidding themselves if they believe a Saturday's loss can be reduced simply to 'inexperience' or 'losing a stat count' ad nauseam. 

Here's one small example: Having two of your most senior and experienced defenders in Lynden Dunn and Colin Garland playing as if they are first or second year recruits. Neither can find consistent form. Both have played VFL this year. Neither provide inspiration nor instill confidence within the back six because of this reason.

Tom McDonald. Our second start up KD. Clearly has more time on his side however a trend emerges here also. Inconsistency in his performance. He has some elite attributes for a defender and when he is playing well he is clearly a really vital part of our defence. But when he's not, his more valuable to the opposition given his inherent skill and decision making problems. Turnovers resulting in goals, leaving his man to make an ineffective spoil resulting in goals etc. I would go as far to say that I think Tom McDonald's weaknesses are as bad or worse than any other key defenders in the competition. His best attributes are up there with the best. His worst are horribly bad. 

I'm giving examples of three players whose gameday output is hugely influential to how we defend, instruct and move the ball out of defence with confidence. This is one area of the ground. Dunn and McDonald were incredibly poor on the weekend and Dunn not only rarely contributed positively to our side, he gave away free kicks, a 50 metre penalty and he turned the ball over. 

No doubt there were other players on the weekend who not only were off but were simply horribly underperforming. Pederson, Frost, Vince, Tyson, Gawn whilst a host of younger players were also well down on output and touch (more forgivable). But I am talking about trends and habits that I continue to see that are the main reason behind such dramatic dips in form.

Jesse would without a doubt identify these kinds of problems that remain at the club and wonder how and when it will change. 

And ultimately, unless things like what I just pointed out actually CHANGE, I honestly don't think he'll want to hang around.

 

[Scipio 5,868]

13 hours ago, Nasher said:

I may be stating the obvious, but there are 8 teams in the competition who have the same or worse win/loss record as us at the moment.  If we reckon this loss to St Kilda was any worse than most of the losses that have occurred to any team this season, then I think we're getting carried away with the emotion/disappointment of losing a bit too much.

The Essendon one I accept was definitely a bad one.  

Essendon was unforgivable, but there were reasons for this loss. The short turn around, our inability to play Etihad and the way the Saints match up on us all played a part.

Frustrating, but I can understand it. We will beat the Suns this week.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

50 minutes ago, Django said:

Essendon was unforgivable, but there were reasons for this loss. The short turn around, our inability to play Etihad and the way the Saints match up on us all played a part.

Frustrating, but I can understand it. We will beat the Suns this week.

While I don't think we are as mentally fragile, in terms of the previous state in which the legacy of past regimes left us, I think we have moved on to another stage.  A list that is still young and has a tendency to get ahead of itself, in terms of the the reality of the progress it has actually made.  I also think when they get a bit of positive media coverage, as they did after winning 2 in a row - WOW - they start to believe their own publicity.  This is the next challenge in our evolution into becoming a truly good football team.

[What 18,810]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

r

 

Follow

 

Jacqui Reed

 

✔ ‎@JacquiReed10

Jesse Hogan has turned up for scans on his finger. Pictures on @TenSportMelb tonight.

9:09 AM - 2 May 2016

Oh for [censored] sake

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

15 hours ago, Peter Griffen said:

compared to the 100% of games the Dockers have been [censored] in, plus they have to spend hours on a plane just to get belted. 

This year, yeah - but the last 4 or so years?

15 hours ago, Nasher said:

I may be stating the obvious, but there are 8 teams in the competition who have the same or worse win/loss record as us at the moment.  If we reckon this loss to St Kilda was any worse than most of the losses that have occurred to any team this season, then I think we're getting carried away with the emotion/disappointment of losing a bit too much.

The Essendon one I accept was definitely a bad one.  

Don't disagree with any of that. I was just pointing out that we underperform more frequently than time to time.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

1 hour ago, Django said:

The short turn around, our inability to play Etihad and the way the Saints match up on us all played a part.

Frustrating, but I can understand it. We will beat the Suns this week.

Short turn around - Saints played the same day as us last week.

Inability to play Etihad - this is a flaw, not an excuse

Way the Saints match up on us - they play well against us but don't think its due to match-ups - they play smarter than us

Beat the Suns next week - dunno, you're probably right but it won't prove much in my eyes. We should beat the Suns next week so it won't be some crowning achievement. It should be the expectation.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,188]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Short turn around - Saints played the same day as us last week.

Inability to play Etihad - this is a flaw, not an excuse

Way the Saints match up on us - they play well against us but don't think its due to match-ups - they play smarter than us

Beat the Suns next week - dunno, you're probably right but it won't prove much in my eyes. We should beat the Suns next week so it won't be some crowning achievement. It should be the expectation.

Sounds like you're taking GC for granted?

I don't think we 'should' beat the Suns this week.

Its an absolute 50/50 game played at a venue where the Suns obviously play their best footy at.

i think it would be a fantastic win to beat the Suns on the road.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,415]

18 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Sounds like you're taking GC for granted?

I don't think we 'should' beat the Suns this week.

Its an absolute 50/50 game played at a venue where the Suns obviously play their best footy at.

i think it would be a fantastic win to beat the Suns on the road.

The amount of injuries they've got? If we're serious, I think we should win this game. It's not taking them for granted it's looking at the teams on paper and saying this team should beat that one.

[Little Goffy 12,571]

Lynch-Hogan could be quite the shootout, the way the Suns and ourselves are defending against marking talls lately.

 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

18 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

Riewoldt kicked 9 that day and we won by something like 8 or 9 goals. He's always played well against us and Hogan appears to like playing St Kilda. Nice post.

It was 9? Wow. Yeah.

[Gator 16,893]

6 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Lose sometimes?

It would have absolutely nothing to do with losing sometimes. 

It would have a lot to do with the downfalls of periods of these games that are the reason we end up losing.

These are trends and are inherent problems that still exist within our current group and are visible to outsiders watching.

Why do you think during that third quarter capitulation, people say it's the 'same old Melbourne again'? Where does that come from? And what does that mean to people?

I can't understand these reductionist posts. 

Whilst Saturday's resulting 'loss' this early in the season is hardly worth crying about, it is the same patterns and trends that continue to concern. Why do so many seem to miss that? Quite obviously it's got nothing to do with 'one loss'.

I find it hard to believe that any supporter wouldn't think that Jesse wouldn't have those things on his mind in regards to how far this club can go and how far he can take his footy with this club. Especially given what he's endured since arriving and what he would be able to see on game day in regards to old habits and new.

We were the second youngest team on the weekend and bottom 3 or 4 in games experience. We'll have other days like Saturday.

There were only 7 players that played in the round 1 loss to St.Kilda in 2014.  I'm treating the current group and list as quite separate to the team of even just 3 years ago.  We've turned the list over and this rebuild has to be treated as (virtually) a separate entity.  So I don't see the "trends and inherent problems" quite the same way you do.  I see a 2 win/54% team that 50 games later is a 3/3 102% team.

Brereton made the comment this afternoon that we're heading in the right direction, but any time we're looking at 3 in a row between now and round 22 2017 tip against us, because we're young, inexperienced and still learning our craft.  It takes games and time.

Hogan is smart and has a better handle on the list and its direction than you, me or anyone posting here.  He's also been told by Goodwin that perseverance and endurance = satisfaction.  He'll get much more satisfaction doing the hard yards than bailing to an already strong team.  Goodwin's point being, "who cherished the flag last year more, Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell or James Frawley ?  It's an obvious answer.  Think about what that flag meant to the players that have been on the long journey compared to the fly in.

We have to hope that Hogan wants to be part of the journey.  I'm confident he will be.  He loves the club and especially his mates at the club.  

Edited May 2, 2016 by ProDee

[John Crow Batty 8,255]

Hogan did not much in two very good wins and was awesome in a pathetic team game. So he is not a problem or a saviour ATM.  We should be ruthlessly trying to clean up our peer group of clubs and pushing the big boys as an indicator of real improvement. The way we are going we can win eventually 10 or 12 in 2017 on the back of 8 to 10 this season but  if we continue to pick and chose our efforts the next big step after could be  a big fall. I can picture all the premature high fives and back slaps  celebrating our future success happening if we reach that stage. At the very best we might grind our way to a GF eventually in the next 2 or 3 seasons and  it's a 50/50 we lose by a dozen goals like 1988 and 2000. Then fall in a heap again.  Efforts like against Essendon and Saints are just not acceptable.

Edited May 2, 2016 by america de cali

[dazzledavey36 48,751]

Mark Stevens ‏@Stevo7AFL 44m44 minutes ago

Nothing to worry about at all with Jesse Hogan's finger. He's a lock for this week

[boydie 653]

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mark Stevens ‏@Stevo7AFL 44m44 minutes ago

Nothing to worry about at all with Jesse Hogan's finger. He's a lock for this week

I hope he didn't get that scoop from Mission!

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

On 5/2/2016 at 7:57 PM, dazzledavey36 said:

Mark Stevens ‏@Stevo7AFL 44m44 minutes ago

Nothing to worry about at all with Jesse Hogan's finger. He's a lock for this week

Well, that's curtains on his season.

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,418]

Nothing to worry about, Misson mentioned he just had to spend 4-6 hours away from training....

[Binmans PA 26,076]

6 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

It was 9? Wow. Yeah.

Thought it was 2004. I was correct. I just checked. We actually won by 10 goals. Also noted that there were 54,409 attend a game at the MCG between Melbourne and St Kilda. Funny that.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Just now, AdamFarr said:

Thought it was 2004. I was correct. I just checked. We actually won by 10 goals. Also noted that there were 54,409 attend a game at the MCG between Melbourne and St Kilda. Funny that.

Wow. It didn't feel like that at all.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

On 5/2/2016 at 5:25 PM, ProDee said:

We were the second youngest team on the weekend and bottom 3 or 4 in games experience. We'll have other days like Saturday. 

There were only 7 players that played in the round 1 loss to St.Kilda in 2014.  I'm treating the current group and list as quite separate to the team of even just 3 years ago.  We've turned the list over and this rebuild has to be treated as (virtually) a separate entity.  So I don't see the "trends and inherent problems" quite the same way you do.  I see a 2 win/54% team that 50 games later is a 3/3 102% team.

Brereton made the comment this afternoon that we're heading in the right direction, but any time we're looking at 3 in a row between now and round 22 2017 tip against us, because we're young, inexperienced and still learning our craft.  It takes games and time.

Hogan is smart and has a better handle on the list and its direction than you, me or anyone posting here.  He's also been told by Goodwin that perseverance and endurance = satisfaction.  He'll get much more satisfaction doing the hard yards than bailing to an already strong team.  Goodwin's point being, "who cherished the flag last year more, Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell or James Frawley ?  It's an obvious answer.  Think about what that flag meant to the players that have been on the long journey compared to the fly in.

We have to hope that Hogan wants to be part of the journey.  I'm confident he will be.  He loves the club and especially his mates at the club.  

I don't think anyone is disputing that we had a young side in, as we did the previous two weeks. However I refuse to say the loss came down to 'inexperience'. That's just garbage.

Conceding seven goals with such ease is not solely down to inexperience. Dunn, McDonald and Lumumba have plenty of experience they all had really poor games. Not average. Poor. Pederson had his worst game for the year, Vince refused to play tough footy and Dom Tyson wasn't near it. Sure some of those players are still young and so off days are forgivable. The trend is there. We have players, including senior ones who are far too inconsistent in their output.

The difference between McDonald's best and worst is far too great. The difference in Dunn's best and worst is far too great. The list goes on. It's the number one contributing factor as to why we still have what many supporters would call 'Melbourne moments'. 

We saw it with Frawley, Howe, Jamar, Bail, Grimes etc etc and with Garland who is playing ressies.

Over a career at AFL level, the hope for all clubs is that the players who last the longest on AFL lists are the ones who will be the most consistent performers at their clubs. And if you look all around, you'll see that all other clubs have them. This has been the norm for all AFL clubs excluding ours which is another reason why we've been the laughing stock. 

We have one home grown player who fits the description. One. Nathan Jones.

Jesse is part of a new breed who everyone is hoping will buck this trend at the MFC and I'm sure he'd be excited at the thought of what they could achieve together. However, I also strongly believe that he'd look at guys like Dunn and McDonald on their underperforming days and question whether or not these more senior guys have the ability to help carry the club also. 

As for the satisfaction comment. He is 21. Frawley was 27 when he left I'm pretty sure and went to the flag favourite who had just won back-to-back. Very different. Jesse would have a myriad of clubs to choose from unlike Frawley and lists with just as much talent and much better leaders. 

Jesse will not leave because of a 'loss'. He'd leave because of the perpetual underperforming of senior and experienced figures that have contaminated the club for years.

Edited May 4, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Gator 16,893]

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that we had a young side in, as we did the previous two weeks. However I refuse to say the loss came down to 'inexperience'. That's just garbage.

Conceding seven goals with such ease is not solely down to inexperience. Dunn, McDonald and Lumumba have plenty of experience they all had really poor games. Not average. Poor. Pederson had his worst game for the year, Vince refused to play tough footy and Dom Tyson wasn't near it. Sure some of those players are still young and so off days are forgivable. The trend is there. We have players, including senior ones who are far too inconsistent in their output.

The difference between McDonald's best and worst is far too great. The difference in Dunn's best and worst is far too great. The list goes on. It's the number one contributing factor as to why we still have what many supporters would call 'Melbourne moments'. 

We saw it with Frawley, Howe, Jamar, Bail, Grimes etc etc and with Garland who is playing ressies.

Over a career at AFL level, the hope for all clubs is that the players who last the longest on AFL lists are the ones who will be the most consistent performers at their clubs. And if you look all around, you'll see that all other clubs have them. This has been the norm for all AFL clubs excluding ours which is another reason why we've been the laughing stock. 

We have one home grown player who fits the description. One. Nathan Jones.

Jesse is part of a new breed who everyone is hoping will buck this trend at the MFC and I'm sure he'd be excited at the thought of what they could achieve together. However, I also strongly believe that he'd look at guys like Dunn and McDonald on their underperforming days and question whether or not these more senior guys have the ability to help carry the club also. 

As for the satisfaction comment. He is 21. Frawley was 27 when he left I'm pretty sure and went to the flag favourite who had just won back-to-back. Very different. Jesse would have a myriad of clubs to choose from unlike Frawley and lists with just as much talent and much better leaders. 

Jesse will not leave because of a 'loss'. He'd leave because of the perpetual underperforming of senior and experienced figures that have contaminated the club for years.

No-one said we lost just because of inexperience.  We lost because our midfield was beaten, we were outnumbered around the footy, we were out pressured and we didn't run hard enough defensively.  We also played off our man too much. 

But, as stated, "young sides will have days like these".  Our best and most important players are Hogan 21, Viney 22 and Gawn 24.  Your leaders are usually your best players and the bulk of ours are young. 

I'm treating this group separately to others before the Roos era, because we've turned over 30 players.  You can lump them in with previous regimes if you like.  I  couldn't care less, although I disagree.  

Once the bulk of our young midfield have played 50-60 games these types of results will become rare.

[stuie 7,374]

On 02/05/2016 at 5:25 PM, ProDee said:

We were the second youngest team on the weekend and bottom 3 or 4 in games experience.

As an aside, Melbourne played 10 players with less than 50 games experience..... So did St Kilda. Our average age was 24, there's 25.

Granted I understand your point is our inconsistency, but I don't like to make experience our excuse when up against a team just as inexperienced.