Jolly shown the door

[DeeVoted 583]

Who cares about Jolly. Not me. Nice to hear the filth are in turmoil, or so it seems.

Jolly did get a raw deal when at Melbourne and Daniher was coach. White was dominating, but there were times Jolly should have been given more game time.

I was diasppointed to see him leave, and I understood his reasons. But as soon as he was the opposition then any feelings i had after were the same as any I feel for anyone that is playing against us. Some get moved on, and I wish them well, others I hated with a passion.

His used by date is up. I couldnt care less. My concerns are focused on our club.

[Guest]

Collingwood have just delisted 6: Jolly, Didak, Krakouer, Hartley, Richmond and Russell

[DeeSpencer 25,516]

Collingwood have just delisted 6: Jolly, Didak, Krakouer, Hartley, Richmond and Russell

Don't know much about the 2 rookies, but Didak, Krak and Russell are done at AFL level and Jolly doesn't make any sense for us already having Jamar. Which is the entire reason he left in the first place.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,083]

Buckley master stroke that one was.

Ha

Yes, Yoda ...

[DeeVoted 583]

Why does there have to be such a long break between seasons.

I recall that comment last year. after round 3 the season couldn't end quick enough

Warnock was borderline at best. But there is no excuse for players not being pulled aside and be told what areas he needs to work harder on. I know some players are treated differently, some just left to their own devices at times. We wonder why our player development leaves a lot to be desired. I liked that Roos said, he wants to turn the players into the best they can be. And the playing list,playing well, makes the coach look better.

Perhaps we can fast track pre-season and put the opening game on hold, until Roos gets them all up to speed. It may save a lot of heartaches.

But I cant wait to see what he does with the existing players, and the new recruits they bring in.

[P-man 13,366]

Next.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

I do not understand how the media ignore the issues the CFC are experiencing since Buckley has taken over. How can a club win a premiership in 2010 with a very young list of stars under Malthouse, followed by a grand final the following year. In the Bucley years Collingwood fell into 4th place with twice as Many loses from the previous year, and ended up 8th this year.

Buttifant has left, Geoff Walsh has left, they got rid of Dawes for Lynch which is a massive failure. Dawes may have had a poor year himself but injury has been his issue. Jolly didn't get along with Bucks (apparently). But the biggest issue under bucks is the lack of forward and defensive run through the midfield. The Brat Pack are not conforming under Bucks as they did Malthouse.

After 2010, the Pies should have had a dynasty era as their list was full of class and younger players than their rivals such as Hwathorn and Geelong.

Mc Chins wanted to romanticise with a club champion taking over the coaching role and its cost the club at least one premiership. Bucks has been a failure.

[DeeSpencer 25,516]

There's a few important issues here:

1. The handover from MM to Buckley was arranged prior to the 2010 premiership. You can argue it drove Malthouse and the players to win the flag.

2. Doesn't matter that Jolly didn't get along with Bucks, he's finished. Grundy is past him and Witts is developing as well.

3. Buttifant is just one of a number of quality fitness directors in the league, who say he'll be a real loss.

4. Pies under Malthouse spend first round picks on Jolly, Tarrant and Krak and a decent pick on Ball. That might be why they are dropping down a bit.

5. Dawes was traded for a top of second round pick. Lynch was free. So it wasn't a direct trade.

6. The brat pack issues are overrated I think. The only contentious one is Shaw and his struggles are due to the team struggles I believe. If he really is not complying he should be traded.

All in all I think Collingwood's 2010 premiership hit a snag pretty early in that they weren't as strong on for depth on the list as people thought. They had a lot of veterans leave post 2010 and not a bunch to replace them with.

Immediately they needed a second ruck/forward and couldn't find one, Dawes was never the man for that job. They shipped off Wellingham and that's not looking like a bad deal so far. Ball hasn't been as good since and did another knee. O'Brien, Didak, Ben Johnson haven't been as good since. Daisy missed the whole of this year, Toovey as well, Beams the first 2/3rds.

I think next year they get Toovey back. Send Reid back to CHB. Along with Brown, Shaw, Maxwell, Marley Williams, Seedsman they can still get a seriously good backline. The forward line will have talent. It's just a question of whether a second ruck can be found and Grundy can hold up at such a young age, that's the first question mark. The second one I agree will be how good the midfield will be in terms of work rate and talent. They'll still have a top class top 4: Swan, Pendles, Beams, Sidebottom, it's whether Daisy stays and others like Ball, Blair, Josh Thomas, Maccaffer, Kennedy, Dwyer and Kyle Martin are up to it. That's a pretty good list to work from in my opinion.

Collingwood's post 2010 drop off might be similar to Hawthorn post 2008. Where the premiership teams were build more on the guys who had career best years or left (for Hawthorn see Croad, Crawford, Bateman, Ellis, Young, Mark Williams, Dew, Ladson and co) than people realised and that a mini rebuild to replace them is needed.

[dpositive 1,663]

Wow Master that is a fantastic appraisal of the pies

It does match your usually considered opinions on other threads

thanks for the detail.

hope it makes them continue where they are going and we can pass them as we go up and they go down.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

All very good points Master, but I differ as I see Buckley and Mc Chins as being the core of a big problem at the club atm.The hand over to Bucks was made purely from a romantic point of view. It was obvious that Malthouse was building a dynasty and had the cattle to have a successful team for at least a 5 year period. bucks has taken over and from a potential point of view he has taken the club backward. The results don't lie.

How can a midfield of Swan, Pendles, Beams, Ball,, Johnson, Blair, Ball, Thomas, Sidebottm and Sinclair not dominate all clubs. Add McCaffer and Goldsack as very good taggers

How can a forward line of Cloke, Fasola, Krackouer, Elliot, Dawes (if kept as a forward only not a ruck/forward), Lynch (failure) not win games against top teams considering the midfielders rotating thru and delivering the ball to them

The back line had Brown, Ried, Maxwell (I don't rate tho), Shaw, Toovey and O Brien to compliment the midfield and stop top forwards.

The CFC have the goods but are coached badly. Yet media love how Bucks presents in interviews. His coaching tho ain't the best in the league and a great list is suffering.

When a club looses the best fitness guy in the comp, a top football administrator, makes poor list managent decisions, and is moving south in the ladder, there is a problem. I see Bucks central to the issues. There is smoke with key figures leaving a club. And I'm predicting a fire is burning

[Demonsterative 3,020]

On another issues Master, I was nt talking about trades for Dawes and Lynch, I was talking about list management and list direction. The brat pack included Swan being suspended by the club for drinking and was banned by the club. Butterford or Buttifant is seen as a leader in sports science. Geoff Walsh is another power brocker who left. The smoke is blinding IMO

If a club tries harder to win a premiership as the coach is leaving, there in itself is a problem. Every player plays to win a premiership. Even minnows like the MFC.

Every club has injuries and the good clubs can work beyond this. The difference to the Pies brining in youth is they can be given a role as their core stars (and here are many) can take up the slack. At the MFC the youth are expected to play roles that are beyond them. Collingwood has very good depth. Players like Williams excel as they have Pendles, Swan, Beam, Ball ect allowing him to play with confidence and freedom.

The CFC are under performing and are dis integrating under FIGJAM

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

There's a few important issues here:

1. The handover from MM to Buckley was arranged prior to the 2010 premiership. You can argue it drove Malthouse and the players to win the flag.

2. Doesn't matter that Jolly didn't get along with Bucks, he's finished. Grundy is past him and Witts is developing as well.

3. Buttifant is just one of a number of quality fitness directors in the league, who say he'll be a real loss.

4. Pies under Malthouse spend first round picks on Jolly, Tarrant and Krak and a decent pick on Ball. That might be why they are dropping down a bit.

5. Dawes was traded for a top of second round pick. Lynch was free. So it wasn't a direct trade.

6. The brat pack issues are overrated I think. The only contentious one is Shaw and his struggles are due to the team struggles I believe. If he really is not complying he should be traded.

All in all I think Collingwood's 2010 premiership hit a snag pretty early in that they weren't as strong on for depth on the list as people thought. They had a lot of veterans leave post 2010 and not a bunch to replace them with.

Immediately they needed a second ruck/forward and couldn't find one, Dawes was never the man for that job. They shipped off Wellingham and that's not looking like a bad deal so far. Ball hasn't been as good since and did another knee. O'Brien, Didak, Ben Johnson haven't been as good since. Daisy missed the whole of this year, Toovey as well, Beams the first 2/3rds.

I think next year they get Toovey back. Send Reid back to CHB. Along with Brown, Shaw, Maxwell, Marley Williams, Seedsman they can still get a seriously good backline. The forward line will have talent. It's just a question of whether a second ruck can be found and Grundy can hold up at such a young age, that's the first question mark. The second one I agree will be how good the midfield will be in terms of work rate and talent. They'll still have a top class top 4: Swan, Pendles, Beams, Sidebottom, it's whether Daisy stays and others like Ball, Blair, Josh Thomas, Maccaffer, Kennedy, Dwyer and Kyle Martin are up to it. That's a pretty good list to work from in my opinion.

Collingwood's post 2010 drop off might be similar to Hawthorn post 2008. Where the premiership teams were build more on the guys who had career best years or left (for Hawthorn see Croad, Crawford, Bateman, Ellis, Young, Mark Williams, Dew, Ladson and co) than people realised and that a mini rebuild to replace them is needed.

Good analysis Master and you did well to deal with the hyperbole put forward by others.

However, I think point 1 is a stretch at best. MM had the team in its premiership window in 2010 with addition of Jolley and Ball.

A number of key players from 2010 are either injured, aged or finished. 2013 Pies have left too much to too few.

The Collingwood side is a good key forward/ defender short at either end of the ground. The absence of Ball and injuries to key players like Beams, Thomas and Jolly have robbed them of class in the midfield.

From a list management perspective Collingwood have jettisoned 6 players and depending how they view next years standing (after the 1,2,4 and 7 ladder positions) then others will go.

And I can't work how Lynch is a "massive fail" considering they moved on Lynch and traded out the underperforming and underwhelming Dawes. They gained pick 20 and 45 and gave up 58 and 60. Lynch was a disappointment but no greater than what Dawes had been for them in 2012. Lynch has not solved a problem that was a problem in 2012.

[Akum 2,660]

Yep, Pies have it all under control.

[DeeSpencer 25,516]

Good analysis Master and you did well to deal with the hyperbole put forward by others.

However, I think point 1 is a stretch at best. MM had the team in its premiership window in 2010 with addition of Jolley and Ball.

A number of key players from 2010 are either injured, aged or finished. 2013 Pies have left too much to too few.

The Collingwood side is a good key forward/ defender short at either end of the ground. The absence of Ball and injuries to key players like Beams, Thomas and Jolly have robbed them of class in the midfield.

From a list management perspective Collingwood have jettisoned 6 players and depending how they view next years standing (after the 1,2,4 and 7 ladder positions) then others will go.

And I can't work how Lynch is a "massive fail" considering they moved on Lynch and traded out the underperforming and underwhelming Dawes. They gained pick 20 and 45 and gave up 58 and 60. Lynch was a disappointment but no greater than what Dawes had been for them in 2012. Lynch has not solved a problem that was a problem in 2012.

Point 1 is definitely a stretch. But any talk of the handover being a complete failure must recognise they've won a flag since it happened and also take into account that at some stage Malthouse would have to go as well. The Malthouse to Buckley is still going much better than Sheedy (Via Knights) to Hird!

Yep I agree Lynch was worth a try. It hasn't worked. They now go one of 3 ways to fix the problem:

1. Hope Grundy and Witts can play together

2. Develop Keffe as the back up ruck (my preference)

3. Trade for a suitable player - Jesse White?

I'd say though with whoever replaces Lynch likely to be close to 200cm and not that mobile in addition to Cloke then you'd want your 3rd tall forward to be more maneuverable than Dawes. That's why Dawes, even if he plays very well for us (unless he gets to AA quality) will be a reasonable trade for Collingwood.

I'm not a pies defender, I just think everyone is a bit quick to whack Bucks when as Melbourne fans we should see how hard it is to make a top 4, yet alone win a flag.

Also I will say that it's not a bad idea for Eddie to follow some of his own advice and organise a succession plan for the Presidency.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Fair points raised.

And the key to a good sporting club presidency is the development of a capable succession plan! I would hate to follow Eddie in the role. I can't see him ever letting go.

[Gorgoroth 12,925]

Don't want Jolly, been there, done that, we will spend more time injured than not and take ime away from our young rucks.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

Rhino

Dawes worked best next to Cloke with a Forward//Ruckman playing a role next to him. Brown played that role. Dawes had very good seasons in 2010 and 2011. This is considering he was inexperienced during those years too!

Buckley tried to turn Dawes into a second ruck man and forward despite him having little to no experience in the ruck. Was it bad play by Dawes? Or bad coaching from FIGJam. No need to answer as I have no respect for your opinion as you only rear you head when there is drama. I'm not interested in your drama or insults!!!

On Lynch, he has had much less impact at the pies than he had at WC. I'm very confident Buckley was hoping he could emulate his output at Collingwood as he did WC. Fail IMO. Dawes circa 2010 and 2011 ( forget 2012 as he was badly coached) was a better player

Dawes has had a poor 2013, but he has struggled with injury. IMO (agree or not I do not care) Dawes playing next to Clake and Hogan is a much greater force that being the lone KF. Dawes understands the forward line and structure very well and will sacrifice goals by leading his opponent away from the play as he did for Cloke.

In regards to Buckley. He has taken a premiership team To a top 4 side then to an 8th placed team this year. Brown and Tarrant are two players who have left the Pies, I can't think of others that have left of any significance. Dawes is another absentee for a side that focuses on team structure. Another reason Lynch has failed as he hasn't contributed to the structure well enough.

No matter how you look at it, replacing Malthouse when he has taken a team to the summit, for a coach who had little experience (Malthouse did not have Buckley as senior assistant due to personality clashes, and Mick gave him the bull crap role as opposition analasist) was wrong.

Hyperbole. Not really, could not even be bothered with getting over emotional with a club I do not like. Just an opinion. I like that Buckley has taken the Pies backward.

To your credit Rhino, since your Mod power has been taken away from you, you behaviour has improved a lot. No more bullying behaviours. I'm liking you more as a result. I

[DeeZee 7,364]

Please god.....i hope he doesnt come back to us.

He said some nasty things about the Dees when he left, and ive not liked the bloke ever since.

Too old anyway.

Rather Maxy, pencil and Fitzy anyday.

[Ted Lasso 19,356]

Surely we wouldn't....

[Demonsterative 3,020]

I'd take Jolly as a part time ruck coach. Roos loves ruckman and I imagine Roos will be employing a ruck coach.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Grundy is more of a steal at pick 18 than Darling was for WCE at 27 (or whatever it was).

Edit: I can tell you are intrigued, Ron, by the look on your avatar face!

I am continually intrigued by the irony of things ...

[jnrmac 20,055]

Don't worry about Jolly. He has two flags to his name. He's done alright.

[wattsup 470]

Jolly has a meeting with roosy today not sure if its for a spot next year or a playing/coach role I will report back when I get more info

[DemonFrog 1,354]

No more Jolly for the MFC as we only want success!

[binman 42,721]

I wonder why the pies simply axed Jolly rather than trying to trade him. Surely they would have got something?