Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Crompton's the man 635]

Totally agree. He will have his risk management strategy well and truly worked out. In fact I know some people who are working as consultants in this area for Essendon and the AFL. Whilst they are very discrete, they are also very competent. They are also realists (unlike the money grabbing QCs Hird has hired). I have no doubt (although I am only guessing) Little is taking the stance he is because internally Hird is so popular. There is no point in picking a fight with that lot until the whole position becomes untenable, including the continuous employment of Hird. He will then have an excuse to facilitate a complete clean out of the Club.

I bet also Bomber Thompson is in on this little scheme. There must have been some reason he suddenly changed his mind about coaching. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is well aware Hird's days are numbered and he put himself in the position as his logical successor (with Little's help). From what I know of Little's business career this would be typical of him, and certainly the advisors I know would be well and truly capable of this sort of play.

Machiavelli would have approved, although he tended to favour cessation as the best option, including that of the previous incumbent's offspring.

Mind you, I remain to be convinced that Bomber is that subtle - tho as you write, he's not the one pulling the strings.

[Moonshadow 16,411]

Totally agree. He will have his risk management strategy well and truly worked out. In fact I know some people who are working as consultants in this area for Essendon and the AFL. Whilst they are very discrete, they are also very competent. They are also realists (unlike the money grabbing QCs Hird has hired). I have no doubt (although I am only guessing) Little is taking the stance he is because internally Hird is so popular. There is no point in picking a fight with that lot until the whole position becomes untenable, including the continuous employment of Hird. He will then have an excuse to facilitate a complete clean out of the Club.

I bet also Bomber Thompson is in on this little scheme. There must have been some reason he suddenly changed his mind about coaching. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is well aware Hird's days are numbered and he put himself in the position as his logical successor (with Little's help). From what I know of Little's business career this would be typical of him, and certainly the advisors I know would be well and truly capable of this sort of play.

The word is that Hird and Essendon have, in fact, not signed a contract extension beyond 2014 and that in all likelihood Hird will never coach again. This might fit in with your comments about Bomber Thompson.

[monoccular 16,413]

Totally agree. He will have his risk management strategy well and truly worked out. In fact I know some people who are working as consultants in this area for Essendon and the AFL. Whilst they are very discrete, they are also very competent. They are also realists (unlike the money grabbing QCs Hird has hired). I have no doubt (although I am only guessing) Little is taking the stance he is because internally Hird is so popular. There is no point in picking a fight with that lot until the whole position becomes untenable, including the continuous employment of Hird. He will then have an excuse to facilitate a complete clean out of the Club.

I bet also Bomber Thompson is in on this little scheme. There must have been some reason he suddenly changed his mind about coaching. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is well aware Hird's days are numbered and he put himself in the position as his logical successor (with Little's help). From what I know of Little's business career this would be typical of him, and certainly the advisors I know would be well and truly capable of this sort of play.

Machiavelli would have approved, although he tended to favour cessation as the best option, including that of the previous incumbent's offspring.

Mind you, I remain to be convinced that Bomber is that subtle - tho as you write, he's not the one pulling the strings.

That is quite profound, Froggie. Glad you kicked vital goals better than your commentary :-)))))

[Dees2014 2,377]

Totally agree. He will have his risk management strategy well and truly worked out. In fact I know some people who are working as consultants in this area for Essendon and the AFL. Whilst they are very discrete, they are also very competent. They are also realists (unlike the money grabbing QCs Hird has hired). I have no doubt (although I am only guessing) Little is taking the stance he is because internally Hird is so popular. There is no point in picking a fight with that lot until the whole position becomes untenable, including the continuous employment of Hird. He will then have an excuse to facilitate a complete clean out of the Club.

I bet also Bomber Thompson is in on this little scheme. There must have been some reason he suddenly changed his mind about coaching. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is well aware Hird's days are numbered and he put himself in the position as his logical successor (with Little's help). From what I know of Little's business career this would be typical of him, and certainly the advisors I know would be well and truly capable of this sort of play.

Machiavelli would have approved, although he tended to favour cessation as the best option, including that of the previous incumbent's offspring.

Mind you, I remain to be convinced that Bomber is that subtle - tho as you write, he's not the one pulling the strings.

By the way this was not supposed to be a criticism of Bomber Thompson. You could argue he is the good guy in all this. He allegedly opposed the supplement program internally from the beginning at Essendon in the face of strong Hird backing, and has been impeccably loyal to Hird when he had many reasons not to be. My guess is Little persuaded him to take the job out of loyalty to Essendon and "helping them out in their biggest crisis" - that does not mean though that part of the negotiation would not have been some sort of guarantee that he would eventually get the job in his own right, and a recognition that this is likely to be sooner rather than later. Further, you could not believe that Little would not have had a direct and realistic conversation with Bomber about the likelihood of infraction notices being issued, the fallout from that, and what is their risk management strategy as a result. This no doubt would have included the question of what would happen to Hird and who would be his replacement.

[rjay 24,047]

Do people really think Little is oblivious to the fact that his club is in deep [censored]?

I think he's too clever a businessperson to think that way and I have no doubt that he's working in full damage control for the day when it all hits the fan.

He's telling one story to the members and supporters but it wouldn't surprise me if those inside the club are hearing an entirely different story.

There is a reason that Neil Craig was brought in to the club. He's certainly not there to mentor Thompson.

[jnrmac 19,327]

There is a reason that Neil Craig was brought in to the club. He's certainly not there to mentor Thompson.

Neil Craig has had to deal with his own rumours about supplements over the years. Nice guy but ...

[rjay 24,047]

Neil Craig has had to deal with his own rumours about supplements over the years. Nice guy but ...

He has as anyone involved in cycling would. If infraction notices are served then in Thompson's own words they all (the FD including himself, Hird and the Doc) will have to go. Craig will again be caretaker coach and need to pick up the pieces.

[Whispering_Jack 28,094]

He has as anyone involved in cycling would. If infraction notices are served then in Thompson's own words they all (the FD including himself, Hird and the Doc) will have to go. Craig will again be caretaker coach and need to pick up the pieces.

In that case, Essendon are well and truly redacted.

[mjt 640]

James Hird is a disgusting human being

Think of all the people out there homeless and starving, and this pathetic [censored] just steals a million dollars for doing nothing

Dirty filthy sociopathic nutjob who thinks hes a god because he chased a piece of leather around a grass oval.. Whoopey doo.....

Pathetic [censored] no shame or dignity. Go pump some more kids full of not for human use drugs you dirty dog.

Of course they're going to defend him, the guy was involved in 2 premiership cups something us losers wouldn't know a thing about, once the infraction notices roll in I would say James will be on his own,but until then there going to back there favourite son.

[rjay 24,047]

In that case, Essendon are well and truly redacted.

Certainly are...

[bing181 8,228]

He has as anyone involved in cycling would.

Craig worked in track cycling, where there have been comparatively few doping infringements. Just saying.

[rjay 24,047]

Craig worked in track cycling, where there have been comparatively few doping infringements. Just saying.

Comparatively few caught doping. Just saying.

Also just saying one infringement is more than enough for any sport but cycling has a very bad record. Why Craig has come to attention, fairly or unfairly is his association with cycling.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Comparatively few caught doping. Just saying.

Also just saying one infringement is more than enough for any sport but cycling has a very bad record. Why Craig has come to attention, fairly or unfairly is his association with cycling.

A better question of association would be, who brought the Weapon to Essendon? Where did the Weapon previously work? Who did the AFL charge? Who was coaching when Geelong bulked up so much?

[rjay 24,047]

A better question of association would be, who brought the Weapon to Essendon? Where did the Weapon previously work? Who did the AFL charge? Who was coaching when Geelong bulked up so much?

Different discussion 'PJ' but I think if notices are issued at Essendon then it won't matter who brought who, they'll all be out.

On the subject of bulking up WC were the real big ones back in the day, classic kick sand in the face one year to adonis the next.

[bing181 8,228]

Comparatively few caught doping. Just saying.

Also just saying one infringement is more than enough for any sport but cycling has a very bad record. Why Craig has come to attention, fairly or unfairly is his association with cycling.

"comparatively few caught doping". Too easy. If there are "comparatively few caught doping" that would tend to reinforce my point, not yours.

Outside of (baseless) conjecture in threads like this on forums like these, Craig hasn't come to attention. The Charlie Walsh and AIS programs that Craig was part of have never been part of any doping allegations, yet alone doping infringements.

But this isn't the place … back to Essendon, and this (as a for example):

http://www.insideathletics.com.au/sprints/14088-matt-davies-speaks-out-about-his-doping-ban

"I have been sanctioned for a substance that I had not intentionally or consciously ingested, on the basis (as ASADA described it) of a "possible anti-doping rule violation". Inadvertent use, of an unlisted substance, which had no information to even suspect it would be a concern."

[Whispering_Jack 28,094]

As mentioned in the post above, this athlete's story makes the way ASADA operates sound almost draconian but it also demonstrates what sportsmen are up against in the sporting world's war on doping -Matt Davies speaks out about his doping ban

[Dees2014 2,377]

The fact is if you are going to clean up cheating in sport through gaining an advantage through doping (exactly what Hird was doing, however much his lawyers try to dress it up), then there must be a zero tolerance and NO-BODYgets off no matter how powerful, how well connected, and how much they can afford expensive QCs.

This has been apparent in Olympic sports for about ten years now and I can understand why a number of Olympic athletes are extremely [censored] off by what they see as double standards when it comes to the AFL.

I'm sure they will be caught in the end, but the nonsense which is peddled by the Murdoch press on Hird's behalf would make anyone without a reasonable knowledge of the situation seriously doubt it.

The AFL and Essendon cannot be allowed to escape on this.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Dees2014

[bing181 8,228]

As mentioned in the post above, this athlete's story makes the way ASADA operates sound almost draconian but it also demonstrates what sportsmen are up against in the sporting world's war on doping -Matt Davies speaks out about his doping ban

Though one salient difference is that Matt Davies did test positive for the substance concerned … whatever it was. A bit different to the Essendon case as there are no positives, but whether in the longer term it'll make any difference, we'll have to wait and see.

[rjay 24,047]

"comparatively few caught doping". Too easy. If there are "comparatively few caught doping" that would tend to reinforce my point, not yours.

Outside of (baseless) conjecture in threads like this on forums like these, Craig hasn't come to attention. The Charlie Walsh and AIS programs that Craig was part of have never been part of any doping allegations, yet alone doping infringements.

But this isn't the place … back to Essendon, and this (as a for example):

http://www.insideathletics.com.au/sprints/14088-matt-davies-speaks-out-about-his-doping-ban

"I have been sanctioned for a substance that I had not intentionally or consciously ingested, on the basis (as ASADA described it) of a "possible anti-doping rule violation". Inadvertent use, of an unlisted substance, which had no information to even suspect it would be a concern."

Don't think you even know what point I was making.

I was saying that I think Craig is at Essendon for back up if it all hits the fan. Someone else pointed out he had been the subject to innuendo in the past and I thought it was because of his association with cycling. Pretty simple really, then you get on the defensive about Craig and cycling.

As for few caught it doesn't mean the others weren't doing it.

[Whispering_Jack 28,094]

Though one salient difference is that Matt Davies did test positive for the substance concerned whatever it was. A bit different to the Essendon case as there are no positives, but whether in the longer term it'll make any difference, we'll have to wait and see.

Won't make any difference. If we're to believe Davies' version then all he tested positive to was a substance that isn't on the WADA banned list. His version also raises some questions on how he handled the situation with ASADA but, in any event, his case demonstrates how circumstantial evidence can sustain infraction notices in anti doping cases.

Meanwhile, Chip Le Grand at the Oz is resembling Zoe Barnes (Francis Underwood's media puppet in the US version of the TV series House of Cards) and presents this apologia on behalf of the Bombers - ASADA relied on 'vague' accounts

Most of it is BS and I refer you to Essendon players given banned drugs

Some Essendon players were given WADA-banned substances AOD9604 and Thymosin Beta 4 under the direction of sports scientist Stephen Dank, according to circumstantial evidence detailed in the confidential ASADA report into the AFL club's 2012 supplements program.

...

The circumstantial evidence detailed in the report to build a case that Thymosin Beta 4 was used includes:

■ Witness testimony and documentary evidence, included that provided by fitness adviser and convicted drug offender Shane Charter, regarding his provision of Thymosin Beta 4 to Dank and advice on how to administer it.

■ Player consent forms reflecting Charter's advice to Dank regarding dosages of Thymosin Beta 4.

■ Documents and communications, including invoices, text messages and emails, referring to the use of a Thymosin peptide at Essendon.

Player consent forms, public assertions by Dank, text messages and an admission by Essendon skipper Jobe Watson strongly suggest that AOD9604 was given to players.

Dons told drug was not legal

WADA Statement on substance AOD9604

And here's the published part of Nick McKenzie and Richard Baker's interview with Dank - The science of Stephen Dank

You can draw your own conclusions.

[beelzebub 22,353]

Why is Murdoch protecting Messendon ?

[Dees2014 2,377]

Why is Murdoch protecting Messendon ?

Well I think it is partly the old problem of loyalty of individuals in their system. The point I made yesterday on here is that the AFL is very tribal (e.g. where the Milne case was originally investigated by police officers who were Saints supporters, as I believe the Chief Commissioner was at the time, and the case was slowly shelved. New commissioner, eight years later, case re-opened, new trial)

Robinson is chief football writer at the Herald-Sun, and a mad Essendon supporter, and has been peddling this Hird nonsense from the beginning to the extent apparently News HO is questioning his effectiveness particularly when News got no awards for one of the biggest stories for 2013 Drugs in Sport. As I understand it, Robbo's position is now under threat, and rightly so. He was not alone however. Apparently there is also some key editorial staff that is very close to Essendon at the Hun. On the other hand, Patrick Smith at the Australian (also part of the Murdoch stable) has been almost as feral as Caroline Wilson when it comes to this story, but perhaps because the Australian is not regarded as a major AFL paper he does not get the coverage.

Finally, I understand the Essendon coterie is well connected in the media, particularly to senior Murdoch executives.

There are always wheels within wheels in these things. All I can say is thank god for Fairfax - they are behaving like good news outlets should - go after the crooks and the charlatans without fear or favour. Indeed I think they are making it a key part of their value proposition and I think The Age in particular is a lot better paper because of it.

[biggestred 4,377]

Essendon has forever stained this great game of ours.

They must be punished and punished hard.

[Elwood 3184 1,268]

Why is Murdoch protecting Messendon ?

It helps to have a staunch bomber fan who idolizes James Hird high up on the chain of command at News Limited.

[monoccular 16,413]

Interesting that some here are jumping to the defence of Thompson - did he not oversee the handbag Cats suddenly becoming big and strong? And then he moved to Essendon?

(BTW I will still never forgive the little prjck for his flippant remarks when Jeff White had his face kicked in: a reckless act at the very least. All Jeff's fault, the little trud said at the time, for getting in the way of King's boot. Pity it wasn't his ....... I must shut up).