Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[ManDee 7,093]

leave him alone.

he has to have his afternoon nap and teeth put back in before he posts again.

Do you have any proof that he needs to put his teeth in to type or is that simply your opinion?

[jazza 1,323]

Do you have any proof that he needs to put his teeth in to type or is that simply your opinion?

opinion,

well biff told that and im spreading it.

[beelzebub 22,308]

Im fine with OD stance..its just that...a stance..

I have a different one...and as Old suggest we'll know all...at some point...well certainly more than we do presently.

But Im also of the view it would be a strange mob indeed ( and maybe thats the out lol ) that would embark on such a thing higgledy piggledy..

EFC are far too arrogant an outfit and far too conceited not to have some plan and audit procedure.

What we can all , surely, agree to is that the records ( real or otherwise ) have not surfaced. Quite frankly I find that amazing. Electronically there's nearly always a trail. it stems from the ignorance of many ( not always their own fault ) that when files are deleted they are deleted...often its far from that its just they cease to be readily 'there'...but they are.

From the outset their ( EFC ) stance has been they have done no wrong , therefore its reasonable , again, to summise they kept tabs on what they were doing.

Did EFC , knowing they were 'pushing' things keep all and sundry 'off-site' ? This would certainly seem to the the case.

It just all strikes me as a little bit too much "they doth protest ( their innocence) too much "

[monoccular 16,391]

recent statements and developments suggest to me that the dons are ready for pain.

the president and coaching staff are hoping it wont be bad ,but they know its going to come by the end of next month.

never been a betting man,but im willing to put 35c on an eviction from the house.

the big fella will make sure the dons will survive,but pain is coming.

So will they be needing Morphine, and / or antidepressants? By injection or by mouth?

Do they still deserve to be in the ANZAC day match??? Is this a club that embodies the ANZAC spirit of honesty bravery and self sacrifice?? Did the diggers do 'What ever it takes" or did they operate within moral boundaries and a sense of honour?

Take ANZAC day off this club, the have brought the game int direpute and dont deserve it.

....well they in all probability were not told what drugs they were being given, and I dare say records may have been rudimentary, and probably many were lost, so maybe the analogy is apt?

[sue 8,477]

Im fine with OD stance..its just that...a stance..

I have a different one...and as Old suggest we'll know all...at some point...well certainly more than we do presently.

But Im also of the view it would be a strange mob indeed ( and maybe thats the out lol ) that would embark on such a thing higgledy piggledy..

EFC are far too arrogant an outfit and far too conceited not to have some plan and audit procedure.

What we can all , surely, agree to is that the records ( real or otherwise ) have not surfaced. Quite frankly I find that amazing. Electronically there's nearly always a trail. it stems from the ignorance of many ( not always their own fault ) that when files are deleted they are deleted...often its far from that its just they cease to be readily 'there'...but they are.

From the outset their ( EFC ) stance has been they have done no wrong , therefore its reasonable , again, to summise they kept tabs on what they were doing.

Did EFC , knowing they were 'pushing' things keep all and sundry 'off-site' ? This would certainly seem to the the case.

It just all strikes me as a little bit too much "they doth protest ( their innocence) too much "

Generally I agree, but the bolded statement doesn't hold water. Their public stance is they have done no wrong, but that doesn't mean they believed they were doing no wrong and thus wouldn't feel guilty about keeping records.

[ManDee 7,093]

Im fine with OD stance..its just that...a stance..

I have a different one...and as Old suggest we'll know all...at some point...well certainly more than we do presently.

But Im also of the view it would be a strange mob indeed ( and maybe thats the out lol ) that would embark on such a thing higgledy piggledy..

EFC are far too arrogant an outfit and far too conceited not to have some plan and audit procedure.

What we can all , surely, agree to is that the records ( real or otherwise ) have not surfaced. Quite frankly I find that amazing. Electronically there's nearly always a trail. it stems from the ignorance of many ( not always their own fault ) that when files are deleted they are deleted...often its far from that its just they cease to be readily 'there'...but they are.

From the outset their ( EFC ) stance has been they have done no wrong , therefore its reasonable , again, to summise they kept tabs on what they were doing.

Did EFC , knowing they were 'pushing' things keep all and sundry 'off-site' ? This would certainly seem to the the case.

It just all strikes me as a little bit too much "they doth protest ( their innocence) too much "

You can't have it all ways.

1 Records not kept is wrong.

2 Records lost or destroyed is wrong.

Did they keep records or not?

Either way they have done wrong.

[ManDee 7,093]

This all reminds me of the US government in pursuit of the gangster Al Capone.

The authorities could not get him for any of his nefarious activities. In the end he went to jail for tax evasion.

Maybe the EFC will get theirs in some unexpected way? We can only hope.

[beelzebub 22,308]

You can't have it all ways.

1 Records not kept is wrong.

2 Records lost or destroyed is wrong.

Did they keep records or not?

Either way they have done wrong.

I agree..

what Im saying is it reasonable to assume they did , because they maintained they were doing nothing untoward.

If they have no records (claimed ) , surely Worksafe would have them in their sights on that alone.

I agree , there is really no way they can work this rort without essentially admitting guilt to something.

[daisycutter 28,684]

where's rangey? we need a poll - LOL

[ManDee 7,093]

I agree..

what Im saying is it reasonable to assume they did , because they maintained they were doing nothing untoward.

If they have no records (claimed ) , surely Worksafe would have them in their sights on that alone.

I agree , there is really no way they can work this rort without essentially admitting guilt to something.

I concur,

IMO they have chosen the path leading to the smallest penalty. In so doing they have opened the door to potentially massive claims from the players & Worksafe. Time will tell. One thing I am certain of, they are going to cop a whack at some time.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ManDee

[Flying Cloud 152]

It is quite simple...You cannot have an 18 month supplement program without keeping Data recorded on each person involved.

However dodgy the chemical compounds may be..

One thing I have wondered about is the official Doc Reid records. Many players would have seen the Doc for various issues over the year. When ever I see a doctor they ask are you taking anything else, or are you on any medication, and they type it into their computer.

So surely somewhere in Doc Reid's computer records for the players there would be some reference to what was taken. If not, why not?

[Cards13 9,117]

One thing I have wondered about is the official Doc Reid records. Many players would have seen the Doc for various issues over the year. When ever I see a doctor they ask are you taking anything else, or are you on any medication, and they type it into their computer.

So surely somewhere in Doc Reid's computer records for the players there would be some reference to what was taken. If not, why not?

The "poor old Doc Reid" theme is the biggest hoax of the whole charade! Edited March 6, 2014 by Cards13

[beelzebub 22,308]

Reid ought not be pitied, he ought to be condemned for his actions

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Im fine with OD stance..its just that...a stance..

EFC are far too arrogant an outfit and far too conceited not to have some plan and audit procedure.

From the outset their ( EFC ) stance has been they have done no wrong , therefore its reasonable , again, to summise they kept tabs on what they were doing.

Its no more a stance than your claims. And you have little substantive to back it up.

As far as EFC's plan and audit procedures is concerned its already been established through the Ziggy report and the ASADA interim report that there has been a systemic failure of governance at the club. Poor or absent reporting lines, unclear roles and responsibilities with no line of sight of operations with no formalised reporting up the chain with inadequate record keeping. EFC's failings are symbolic of what has happened in a number of major corporate governance disasters especially in the financial services industry. In short its clear they did not keep tabs and as a result elements within the club have been extremely reckless.

And EFC have not adopted as stance they have done no wrong. They have mea culpaed on a number of issues as stated but have not accepted that they deliberately and intentionally exposed the players to a doping program. And the lack of governance framework at the club has meant that individuals like Hird and Reid were not formally responsible. Their position does not wash with anyone who is not a fanatical Essendon supporter.

Generally I agree, but the bolded statement doesn't hold water. Their public stance is they have done no wrong, but that doesn't mean they believed they were doing no wrong and thus wouldn't feel guilty about keeping records.

Essendon realise there have been substantial failings on their behalf. They just dont accept that the outcomes were a deliberate plan to run a doping system.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You can't have it all ways.

1 Records not kept is wrong.

2 Records lost or destroyed is wrong.

Did they keep records or not?

Either way they have done wrong.

I dont think that is in dispute at all....by anyone including EFC.

However EFC would acknowledge the first point but not the second point. And there is no evidence to validate the second point. Its not clear we will know more once ASADA reports

If the 2nd point were to be proven as fact then the implications of this whole scandal become far far more serious.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

One thing I have wondered about is the official Doc Reid records. Many players would have seen the Doc for various issues over the year. When ever I see a doctor they ask are you taking anything else, or are you on any medication, and they type it into their computer.

So surely somewhere in Doc Reid's computer records for the players there would be some reference to what was taken. If not, why not?

The "poor old Doc Reid" theme is the biggest hoax of the whole charade!

Reid ought not be pitied, he ought to be condemned for his actions

Reid was aware but not in charge of the supplements program.

His awareness of the program and failure to push his visionary concerns about the program are appalling.

He should have resigned when he was not being heard but instead he went silent.

Pathetic.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I concur,

IMO they have chosen the path leading to the smallest penalty. In so doing they have opened the door to potentially massive claims from the players & Worksafe. Time will tell. One thing I am certain of, they are going to cop a whack at some time.

Well you would think any entity in their situation would do the same, whether you agree with their stance.

I would have thought that this approach would have mitigated somewhat the risk of massive claims and Worksafe. If they had come out and fallen on their sword and taken full responsibility and accountability for their sins then the lawyers would be lining up to sue them.

They wont and havent escaped censure. However to date it could have been far worse. But there is still more to come and they will have little influence over that.

[sue 8,477]

As far as EFC's plan and audit procedures is concerned its already been established through the Ziggy report and the ASADA interim report that there has been a systemic failure of governance at the club. Poor or absent reporting lines, unclear roles and responsibilities with no line of sight of operations with no formalised reporting up the chain with inadequate record keeping. EFC's failings are symbolic of what has happened in a number of major corporate governance disasters especially in the financial services industry. In short its clear they did not keep tabs and as a result elements within the club have been extremely reckless.

This is all true. However I wouldn't conclude that this general lack of governance means they kept no records of the actual program.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

This is all true. However I wouldn't conclude that this general lack of governance means they kept no records of the actual program.

I am not claiming nor concluding that at all. Given what we do know about the governance failings at EFC it is plausible that record keeping was poor slapdash and not performed at all in some cases.

Despite the incessant chestbeating of some posters that there were records and they must have been destroyed, we are still yet to estanlish that. Its certainly still a possibility but as I said before the discovery of such practices would put this investigation on a far more serious path.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

I bet Dank kept records of what he was doing though. Even if they were seperate.

[CHAMP 347]

I bet Dank kept records of what he was doing though. Even if they were seperate.

A Witch Doctor might not bother with record-keeping but a somewhat-qualified Sports Scientist hopefully would.

It is hardly credible that data relating to an extensive injection regime was not recorded in specific individual detail.

It would be most-unprofessional and heading towards the criminal not to do so.

[Sir Why You Little 34,855]

Dank would also keep his own records purely so he knew what stock he needed to purchase.

However primative those records maybe.

[ManDee 7,093]

Well you would think any entity in their situation would do the same, whether you agree with their stance.

I would have thought that this approach would have mitigated somewhat the risk of massive claims and Worksafe. If they had come out and fallen on their sword and taken full responsibility and accountability for their sins then the lawyers would be lining up to sue them.

They wont and havent escaped censure. However to date it could have been far worse. But there is still more to come and they will have little influence over that.

With no records kept and and the acceptance that substances were administered, what defense do the EFC have to future claims from players claiming problems as a result of the unknown substances? The EFC can hardly say we did not give you x y or z. Or at the dosage you had you could not possible have that side effect. Pandora and her box will open.

I cannot see this mitigating the risk for EFC I think it will exaggerate the risk.

What possible defense could they mount. We don't know what they were administered or how much and based on our complete lack of records......woops.......

The year is 2053 the son of player X I'll call him Goter, he finds that he is infertile as a possible result of a sperm defect from his father who played for EFC he is seeking damages. It could happen.

[jnrmac 19,314]

Its no more a stance than your claims. And you have little substantive to back it up.

As far as EFC's plan and audit procedures is concerned its already been established through the Ziggy report and the ASADA interim report that there has been a systemic failure of governance at the club. Poor or absent reporting lines, unclear roles and responsibilities with no line of sight of operations with no formalised reporting up the chain with inadequate record keeping. EFC's failings are symbolic of what has happened in a number of major corporate governance disasters especially in the financial services industry. In short its clear they did not keep tabs and as a result elements within the club have been extremely reckless.

And EFC have not adopted as stance they have done no wrong. They have mea culpaed on a number of issues as stated but have not accepted that they deliberately and intentionally exposed the players to a doping program. And the lack of governance framework at the club has meant that individuals like Hird and Reid were not formally responsible. Their position does not wash with anyone who is not a fanatical Essendon supporter.

Essendon realise there have been substantial failings on their behalf. They just dont accept that the outcomes were a deliberate plan to run a doping system.

Of course they do. They wanting a cutting edge program. I don't think anyone suggests they deliberately sought to go over the line (wherever that line is) but make no mistake they were pushing hard to ensure they had an edge on the competition.

Sometimes when you walk on a line you cross over it. They clearly did. The 'oops we didn't mean to go over it' doesn't wash. Even Ziggy (their guy) said it was an 'experiment'. They set out to push the boundary and failed...

Throw the book at them....

[Whispering_Jack 28,089]

On the question of whether Essendon/Dank kept records of thousands of injections of players under their drugs programme, the words of the S & G song come to mind:-

"All lies and jests

Still a man hears what he wants to hear

And disregards the rest "