Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[dee-luded 2,959]

Remaining Essendon players plus 1 50 + game player from each of the other clubs. Remember Ted Fidge? I would offer Byrnes. NOTE:-This is pure speculation.

geez, your generous

maybe dunn could captain them.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Maybe the Don's penalty should be to play 8 games in Tassie for ten years, and a name change to the "Tassie Bombers" with a logo of a bomber dropping it's load on the map of tasmania!

Maybe they're punishment should be to Lose the ANZAC day fixture.

..... which should go Into a Rotational policy,,, for last seasons 3rd & 4th finishing teams.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Oh i heard all this stuff before Ad';s retirement announcement. I think the Essendon situation has hastened his exit but that is all. AD in my view still is trying to sort through all this in the best interests of the Game. It is Hird (egged-on by his lawyer wife) who has made this outcome so much worse than it need be, not least for Hird himself. She may be a good lawyer, but she has no idea of how to play the political game, and no idea about how to get the best outcome for her husband. By her actions, she has condemned him to obscurity. He will never work again in the AFL industry.

maybe she'll destroy his afl reputation, then get unhappy & leave him; in tatters

# re Vlad I think this announcement would have been planned for months. to be announced now before the season kickoff,,, before those against him & for the 'hird camp' have a chance to make loud noises calling for him to be removed.

its gonna get dirty from here & I sense the gloves coming off,,,, bring it on !!! love a good fight.

Edited March 5, 2014 by dee-luded

[beelzebub 23,238]

I dont really care if Essendon disappear...its called evolution Thoughout the history of the league, teams come and go.

Another team can come in...and the grass will still be green, posts still white...game will go on

[old dee 23,506]

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

I said haphazad and incompetent dc.

Isn't that what you describe above.

Can you show me where anyone in authority has said they destroyed records?

Now they may have but not one has said that.

If someone can find among the reams written on this saga a commnet that they believe the records were destroyed then I will retract.

But right now I don't believe that comment has been made.

[old dee 23,506]

Remaining Essendon players plus 1 50 + game player from each of the other clubs. Remember Ted Fidge? I would offer Byrnes. NOTE:-This is pure speculation.

Plus we will pay his salary for the balance of 2014 and add $50k for the 2015 season.

[bing181 9,083]

Thanks for the clarification, has any sporting body not adopted the penalties? Then what?

The Kazakstan cycling federation gave Vinokourov a token ban (1 year) for a blood-doping infringement. UCI then came in over the top, and appealed to CAS, who imposed the standard 2 year ban. Similar in the Shoaib Akhtar case, but CAS wouldn't take on the WADA appeal, as the Pakistani Cricket Board hadn't signed up to the WADA code.

There are other examples, though none of late to my knowledge. The message seems to be getting through.

[daisycutter 29,416]

I said haphazad and incompetent dc.

Isn't that what you describe above.

Can you show me where anyone in authority has said they destroyed records?

Now they may have but not one has said that.

If someone can find among the reams written on this saga a commnet that they believe the records were destroyed then I will retract.

But right now I don't believe that comment has been made.

you know well why no-one has or would actually say records were destroyed

i'm not saying they have been destroyed or waylaid either, just saying they must have existed in order to execute the program and now they are not available and there aren't too many other explanations

it is also seems that essendon has been un-cooperative and obstructive in other ways as well as being in denial of some very basic facts

"the players health was not put at risk at any time and no we don't actually know what the players were injected with but it was all legal"

"sorry we can't find any records of who, what, when or where but it was all handled very professionally and the players welfare was always uppermost"

(paraphrasing)

anyway believe what you want, each to his own. we are only sitting on the outside looking in. the media are not too helpful

[old dee 23,506]

The Kazakstan cycling federation gave Vinokourov a token ban (1 year) for a blood-doping infringement. UCI then came in over the top, and appealed to CAS, who imposed the standard 2 year ban. Similar in the Shoaib Akhtar case, but CAS wouldn't take on the WADA appeal, as the Pakistani Cricket Board hadn't signed up to the WADA code.

There are other examples, though none of late to my knowledge. The message seems to be getting through.

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

[daisycutter 29,416]

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

we've covered this before od in previous threads

wada can bring a lot of pressure on the afl through various means if they need to

[bing181 9,083]

My understanding is that as far as possible they only want infraction notices issued that are as iron clad as possible.

I will be surprised if the notices go ahead.

Perhaps. But the other body with an active interest here is WADA, who review all cases whether notices are issued or not. If they feel that notices should have been issued and weren't for whatever reason, there'll be some explaining to do, and appeals if necessary (from WADA).

[bing181 9,083]

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

It goes much further than that, they can start banning Australian athletes and teams from participating in other competitions.

[old dee 23,506]

you know well why no-one has or would actually say records were destroyed

i'm not saying they have been destroyed or waylaid either, just saying they must have existed in order to execute the program and now they are not available and there aren't too many other explanations

it is also seems that essendon has been un-cooperative and obstructive in other ways as well as being in denial of some very basic facts

"the players health was not put at risk at any time and no we don't actually know what the players were injected with but it was all legal"

"sorry we can't find any records of who, what, when or where but it was all handled very professionally and the players welfare was always uppermost"

(paraphrasing)

anyway believe what you want, each to his own. we are only sitting on the outside looking in. the media are not too helpful

dc I am not trying to defend the EFC in any way.

What I am saying just because it would be the correct thing to record information to determine if and what got results does not mean it happened.

I get the feeling that this was not done correctly from the start. IMO they were reckless, incompetent, cavalier and endangered the health of their players.

Until proven otherwise I don't believe they destroyed records because I don't believe any of substance existed in the first place.

It is not a case IMO of me believing whatever I want I just see no evidence or comment at this stage that they destroyed records.

Lets hope we find out close to the truth in the next few months.

[old dee 23,506]

It goes much further than that, they can start banning Australian athletes and teams from participating in other competitions.

That threat hold some water bing

[old dee 23,506]

Perhaps. But the other body with an active interest here is WADA, who review all cases whether notices are issued or not. If they feel that notices should have been issued and weren't for whatever reason, there'll be some explaining to do, and appeals if necessary (from WADA).

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

[daisycutter 29,416]

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

i don't understand this "solid" bull-tish

they always have to be solid. there is nothing special or different here for essendon

asada is full of legal experts without this new judge so i'd expect whatever they have come up with to be professionally prepared

remember too under wada code which signatories sign up to, the burden of proof is less rigorous for asada than normal courts

[beelzebub 23,238]

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

somehow I get the notion part of the delay goes to the idea of double dotting and double crossing....to be sure to be sure.

Little and Hird are about to experience something anew....abject failure

[Cards13 9,117]

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

I'm sure I have seen text's or statements from Dank who said while it was happening how much the injections were working. Rhino would I be wrong to assume these people would have been

measuring the doses and who was taking what so they could keep the cycles going to keep the improvements going?

[Deeman 1,479]

Hail James, the exalted leader of everything great in this hemisphere -

[sue 9,039]

OldDee, of course none of us can say definitely the records existed and were definitely destroyed. But many of us feel that on the balance of probabilities they were kept, and if they no longer exist, were deliberately destroyed.

The only thing that would make me seriously doubt the latter is: If a lot of people were involved in maintaining the records and/or their destruction, then perhaps by now someone would have squealed. Maybe they have. We will have to wait and see.

Edited March 5, 2014 by sue

[John Crow Batty 8,812]

Hail James, the exalted leader of everything great in this hemisphere -

I protest, that should be Paul Roos there.

[Redleg 40,313]

OldDee, of course none of us can say definitely the records existed and were definitely destroyed. But many of us feel that on the balance of probabilities they were kept, and if they no longer exist, were deliberately destroyed.

The only thing that would make me seriously doubt the latter is: If a lot of people were involved in maintaining the records and/or their destruction, then perhaps by now someone would have squealed. Maybe they have. We will have to wait and see.

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

[beelzebub 23,238]

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

yep... stands to reason

as obvious as balls on bull.

Theres no other conclusion that holds water

[Red and Bluebeard 2,080]

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

[Satan 2,857]

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

They were given to Bill Valhos for safe keeping in his ute