POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Nothing has changed. This is where the team is at. Predicting how much we will lose by is actually a pretty easy gig which says to me that effort is not an issue. We're a 6 goal worse team than St.Kilda.

Some were furious after the Gold Coast game but the reality is we are a 10 goal worse side than GC who were 5 goals worse than Hawthorn - to whom we lost by 15 goals.

A new coach might be able to find a way of limiting the bleeding short term but personally I don't think there's a motivation problem at all. They're trying, but they simply aren't good enough at this stage.

If we can get a coach who can reduce the goals we give up from turnovers to the same rate as other teams we'll improve out of sight. Against Collingwood they scored 13.11 to our 2.0 from turnovers. That's 77 points and we lost by 83.

I think we gave away another 13 goals today. Fix that and we're a much. much better team.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,090]

Was the best brand of footy we have played in goodness knows how long. Our spread was still rubbish as was our execution but the style was there. Garland, Sylvia, Tmac and Watts were excellent. Byrnes and Pederson appalling. Look forward to seeing us build on it next week.

[Redleg 40,782]

I rekon Trenners is playing with OP

Then he shouldn't play. He is a liability at the moment. Slowest player on the ground.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

Also thought Blease was better today. Gets involved more each week. I still feel he needs to learn when to pass it more, but if he keeps going like this it's going to click sooner or later.

[ThreeOneSix 954]

I couldn't care less about stats, we were right in this game

St Kilda had the luxury of being gifted free kicks inside their 50.

Neil Craig coached arguably our worst side for the year and got within.

But, it will be weeks before we can make a more accurate assessment of Craig's coaching - compared to Neeld's.

[Redleg 40,782]

Was the best brand of footy we have played in goodness knows how long. Our spread was still rubbish as was our execution but the style was there. Garland, Sylvia, Tmac and Watts were excellent. Byrnes and Pederson appalling. Look forward to seeing us build on it next week.

I thought you were generous with Byrnes and Pedersen.

[Adam The God 30,090]

We had far more of the ball, we had more uncontested possessions, the disposal differential was 34 which is much better than the past few weeks. We even went inside 50 more times than St Kilda did.

However, we were appalling in the clearances, we still don't spread hard enough. But our skills are the single biggest thing that is killing us right now. We have so many players who are liabilities with the ball in hand.

Unfortunately, Terlich is one of them. I love him just as much as everyone else here, he reads the play well, he gets involved, he can defend and attack, he's tough, I love it. But he can't kick. Too many of our players can't make simple passes, or fumble the ball, or drop marks, or don't hold tackles, or miss handpasses, or over/under-run the ball when attempting to mark.

They kicked the first 3 goals in about 5 minutes. After that, it was relatively level, especially given it was a 6 goal final margin. I'm sick of us being behind from the first moments. If we are eventually able to get the first goal (we've done that twice this year), and maybe get a lead going, it might just help our boys with confidence.

Thought Watts was good. Made a few mistakes (the missed goals in the second quarter when we had the momentum hurt), but showed a lot. Thought Garland was outstanding. Toumpas is showing why he went at 4 - loved his game, backed up QBD with another good showing. Thought Kent and Clisby also showed promise.

On the flipside, Howe was nowhere to be seen for most of the game, Davey had a shocker, Fitzpatrick didn't make any improvement, Dunn is still crap, Spencer refuses to kick. And the umpiring was disgraceful and killed us at critical moments.

There was enough there today. Viney and Grimes back in the middle, Clark and Hogan (and a fit Dawes) up forward, another few good runners/mids, and things will come together.

RE: the clearances and spread - I thought there were signs that we were trying a lot harder to spread quickly from the contest. It isn't a thing you can fix in one week though, which tells me that Neeld either didn't know how to communicate this or failed to pick up on it at all. That seems staggering to me.

RE: Terlich - as with so many of our players, it's more about the decision making that kills him. Often he's quite a sound kick technically, but he makes the wrong decisions with ball in hand. Admittedly, a lot of our guys have this trouble too, but he also fail to hit targets under little to absolutely no pressure. It's between the ears. Either confidence or experience.

RE: Howe - I maintain he is a liability up forward. He is abhorrently lazy and his work rate is ordinary. For me, he's overrated. Can take a great mark, but lacks the right attitude so often. He's reminding me of a fellow Tasmanian who donned our 24 guernsey.

I think the new coach's biggest test will be fixing and ensuring the basic fundamentals of the game are being executed to an appropriate level. It might be a little more difficult unless a psychologist gets a look at our guys beforehand. A lot of battle scars across this group.

[DemonOX 8,779]

But, it will be weeks before we can make a more accurate assessment of Craig's coaching - compared to Neeld's.

There is NO comparison 316.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

as succinctly as possible

we had no spine and deserved to win

some of the worst umpiring i've seen

[titan_uranus 24,963]

RE: the clearances and spread - I thought there were signs that we were trying a lot harder to spread quickly from the contest. It isn't a thing you can fix in one week though, which tells me that Neeld either didn't know how to communicate this or failed to pick up on it at all. That seems staggering to me.

RE: Terlich - as with so many of our players, it's more about the decision making that kills him. Often he's quite a sound kick technically, but he makes the wrong decisions with ball in hand. Admittedly, a lot of our guys have this trouble too, but he also fail to hit targets under little to absolutely no pressure. It's between the ears. Either confidence or experience.

RE: Howe - I maintain he is a liability up forward. He is abhorrently lazy and his work rate is ordinary. For me, he's overrated. Can take a great mark, but lacks the right attitude so often. He's reminding me of a fellow Tasmanian who donned our 24 guernsey.

I think the new coach's biggest test will be fixing and ensuring the basic fundamentals of the game are being executed to an appropriate level. It might be a little more difficult unless a psychologist gets a look at our guys beforehand. A lot of battle scars across this group.

Agree on the spread, I was more noting that it still stands out as being sub-par. We'll need more than a week to get better at it, that's for sure.

It's a shame with Terlich - he's often the one making space and running to link-up, but when he gets the ball you just have no confidence that he's going to hit a target.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,589]

Interesting comments. Wish id been able to go.

so basically does anyone think our players weren't trying? That was an accusation that got a big run in my area of seating (mainly by pies supporters) on queens bday.

[DemonOX 8,779]

Interesting comments. Wish id been able to go.

so basically does anyone think our players weren't trying? That was an accusation that got a big run in my area of seating (mainly by pies supporters) on queens bday.

No mate they tried for four qrts which was good to c.

Never saw that under the dud one

Edited June 22, 2013 by DemonOX

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I must have had too many at the ground, because when I logged on here I expected to see a wave of appreciation for Watts as a key forward. He only kicked 2, but it could have easily been 5. Put big mitch up there with him and a bit of extra performance from the midfield and JW is a complete weapon

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Jake Spencer looks like Napolean Dynamite.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

I must have had too many at the ground, because when I logged on here I expected to see a wave of appreciation for Watts as a key forward. He only kicked 2, but it could have easily been 5. Put big mitch up there with him and a bit of extra performance from the midfield and JW is a complete weapon

You should know better of Demonland.

It's unfortunate, really.

[Adam The God 30,090]

Agree on the spread, I was more noting that it still stands out as being sub-par. We'll need more than a week to get better at it, that's for sure.

It's a shame with Terlich - he's often the one making space and running to link-up, but when he gets the ball you just have no confidence that he's going to hit a target.

How bad are our attempts to clear the ball from defensive fifty too? The huddle? Still? Easiest play to defend against and has been since the '90s. There's not much you can change in a week, but we are so predictable. From our first kick out, St Kilda pre-empted our setup and were waiting. Sure enough, turn over.

[Deecisive 1,709]

Loved spencers endeavour his chasing was an example of what all of our players should be doing. The fact he chose to handpass usually to jones or someone floating around him just shows common sense they are better (sometimes) at delivering the ball down field.

Toumpas, still needs to learn to chase, he jogs after his opponents far too often, I dont see the hunger in him yet to get the ball.

Davey while he did not get the ball a lot, he always seemed to be in the frame chasing and knocking players over after they disposed of the ball, think it was a good effort. When he gets the ball his disposal is usually pretty good, our problem is we dont help break him free often enough and get him the ball so he can deliver into the forward line.

Fitz didnt do a lot but what he did was reasonable, shows some promise, like all of our players he needs to work on his kicking.

Garland, brilliant game, knew when to run off him man and give others a hand.

McDonald a good game on Nick the *ick, but his kicking needs a lot of work.

Clisby, good first game but needs to work on his delivery.

Blease had a disposal efficiency of 33% ... really needs to work on that big time.

Dunn, sometime I wonder why we bother with him

Terlich tried but his disposal and decision making is pretty poor, is credited with 7 clangers, which in the backline usually results in scoring opportunties for the opposition.

Pederson, needs to really back himself and attack the ball, and pump it long, stop with the silly little handpasses to players standing next to himself.

Dawes outnumbers all day long, so hard to judge.

Jack Watts I liked his effort and chase, just not some of his skills, luck just not going his way at the moment, a bit more time up forward will help.

Jack Trengrove, too slow, there is a problem with him that they club needs to address, we cannot keep playing him in the midfield when he cannot keep up.

Byrnes did not show a lot, but then he is trying to run all over the ground like a rover to get the ball, would be better to spend more time near our forwards crumbing or at least helping out dawes and co.

I thought Rodan was good, he would have been better of spencer could hit the ball to our advantage more often.

Nicholson, i like his endeavour but did two or three dumb things for every one of two good things, needs to work on delivery and decision making. 50% disposal efficiency is just not good enough.

All in all we played a cellar dwelling team and got whipped which shows that why we did seem to put in 4 quarters we still play *hit football.

[Bimbo 940]

Wasn't that excited.

St. Kilda are the second worse team I have seen this year

Never have I seen so many perfect passes to opposition players standing on their own. Both teams must use this tactic at training they were so consistently good at it.

If we were playing an adequate team I think we would have been slaughtered again.

As always some things that will keep me interested when I should have taken up lawn bowls (or even just watching grass grow) years ago.

Have always been a fan of Garland but he is playing the best footy of his career and seems to have reduced those untidy undisciplined tackles.

If Spencer played as well as he did in this and the second St. Kilda match last year we would be very pleased with his progress.

Every time I see Toumpas play he is more involved in the game and in the play. I am very happy with his progress

If everyone gave the same effort as Dawes we would give hawthorn a run. Sadly he was only running on about one and a half cylinders today however.

Tom McDonald was excellent. Great attitude and good to see him return to the form of last year.

Fitzpatrick needs to play a few more games on end. He leads well and is a better than average second ruck. I dont say he will make it but certainly dont discount it.

Seeing that Sylvia had most tackles (thanks for the info Rusty) and was involved all game was pleasing. It is often difficult to pick up those things at the game

Perhaps most exciting was thinking at half time that we were still in with a real chance.

It is a pity that Watts dropped mark will be my strongest memory of his performance (He may well have lost it in the lights as I saw a Saints player do later in the match) as he showed in the first quarter last week and most of tonight glimpses of becoming a very good player.

I wish Kent and Blease would get more of the ball. Their moments of brilliance remind me of all the things I could never do. It is sad they are not more frequently repeated.

I thought Melbourne got a couple of soft free kicks today. It is just a pity Saints got more and in far better positions. There is also the kicks that are missed as well. Still I suppose it is like all competitions, all the best umpires go to the best games.

Next week will be interesting (and I havn't thought that for some time)

Edited June 22, 2013 by Bimbo

[Adam The God 30,090]

I must have had too many at the ground, because when I logged on here I expected to see a wave of appreciation for Watts as a key forward. He only kicked 2, but it could have easily been 5. Put big mitch up there with him and a bit of extra performance from the midfield and JW is a complete weapon

I think he let himself down a couple of times. He dropped that easy mark that Terlich spotted up beautifully and missed two shots he should have and would normally kick.

He's turned a corner though. Still a long way to go, but there was one moment in the last quarter when it was kicked in to him. It was a one-on-one. While the ball was in the air, he was the one that initiated the body contact and would have taken the mark had he not been impinged. If he was wearing the number 12 for St Kilda he would have been awarded the free kick.

He did a lot of good, but unfortunately mistakes stick in the mind more so.

Really liking the move to play him solely as a forward though. Leave him there from now on. He is a forward. Jack, always take the front position. As a forward you're more likely to draw a free kick that way.

[Gorgoroth 12,911]

I thought Byrnes was poor.

One thing I noticed early in his games with us is he would run to the right spots and we would either not kick it too him or butcher it trying to get it too him.

Did he more well off the ball?

[DeeSpencer 25,398]

Terlich just bights off more than he can chew but a lot of that comes from not having reliable hard working team mates around. It seems the more desperate the score board gets the more keen he becomes to dance around 3 and kick into a tight window. The better we are going the more he plays within himself. A half decent CHF (and Dawes was clearly short of a gallop and not one today) would help him out and would a ruckman you could kick it long to down the line. I'm not overly worried about it. His lose ball clean up skills are far and above most of our defenders although Frawley and Grimes also excell at this and Garland is getting better and better about working back to the ball and defusing situations. A natural ball getting with some pace like Clisby along side Terlich helps as well.

Howe frustrates me in that up forward he just doesn't know how or where to get involved. I dispute that he is lazy because he seems to work hard when up the ground or when he's the loose man in the backline. I get the feeling he doesn't understand unrewarded running yet.

Toumpas was a great step up today. Sure a few issues still about getting to that elite level of physicality but he hit the ball hard on the deck a couple of times and was rewarded for it and tackles pretty well. He's certainly a mile above first year Watts at things like that. But his kicking and desire to get involved in play and be an option for team mates was outstanding. After an average start we are now starting to see his talent. He should go head to head with Jackson Macrae next week who was taken two picks after him and it should be a good battle.

[Lordweaver 235]

I must have had too many at the ground, because when I logged on here I expected to see a wave of appreciation for Watts as a key forward. He only kicked 2, but it could have easily been 5. Put big mitch up there with him and a bit of extra performance from the midfield and JW is a complete weapon

Yeah, he dropped some sitters

[Adam The God 30,090]

Terlich just bights off more than he can chew but a lot of that comes from not having reliable hard working team mates around. It seems the more desperate the score board gets the more keen he becomes to dance around 3 and kick into a tight window. The better we are going the more he plays within himself. A half decent CHF (and Dawes was clearly short of a gallop and not one today) would help him out and would a ruckman you could kick it long to down the line. I'm not overly worried about it. His lose ball clean up skills are far and above most of our defenders although Frawley and Grimes also excell at this and Garland is getting better and better about working back to the ball and defusing situations. A natural ball getting with some pace like Clisby along side Terlich helps as well.

Howe frustrates me in that up forward he just doesn't know how or where to get involved. I dispute that he is lazy because he seems to work hard when up the ground or when he's the loose man in the backline. I get the feeling he doesn't understand unrewarded running yet.

Toumpas was a great step up today. Sure a few issues still about getting to that elite level of physicality but he hit the ball hard on the deck a couple of times and was rewarded for it and tackles pretty well. He's certainly a mile above first year Watts at things like that. But his kicking and desire to get involved in play and be an option for team mates was outstanding. After an average start we are now starting to see his talent. He should go head to head with Jackson Macrae next week who was taken two picks after him and it should be a good battle.

I don't think Howe is inherently lazy. I think he is lazy when he plays forward the whole game. Almost as if, 'I'm playing in the forwardline, which means I stay put inside offensive fifty'.

Agree on Toumpas and his impressive ability to provide an option for his team mates.

Edited June 22, 2013 by AdamFarr

[Cards13 9,117]

Loved Spencer today. Best big man effort I've seen at Melbourne for about 3 years.

If he could add a boot to his quiver he'd be dangerous. He does have a go, a go that is above and beyond our current no1 ruckman.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Cards13

[mrtwister 652]

I know not many here have much time for Rodan, and this is probably an indication of how 1 dimensional our midfield is, but he is possibly the only player we have that has the power/strength to get an inside ball and the quickness/agility to run it out into space. He did that quite a bit today.

Also, our tackle count was down because we had much more of the ball than usual.

Lastly, clearance stats are useless for us as 90% of them are undirected disposals. Our opponents always have a target with their clearances but ours are generally a kick or handpass in the direction of our goals. Absolutely no targets at all. So frustrating.