Cloke and Collingwood - to part or not to part?

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

I'd be happy to have a go at Cloke, provided that the wage is in the zone where Harrington is happy.

We clearly are going to play a game where the long kick inside 50 will be a big part, so we need people who can compete under that high ball and give us scoring opportunities. Cloke is one of the best at that, and he pushes up to do the same thing on the wing. To have both Cloke and Clark we'd have a great structure that we can use during periods of success.

Best thing is that we won't have to give up any of our top picks.

Our midfield woes can be solved through the draft. We'll have 3 first round picks, including 2 in the first 5. We should be able to hit 2 good midfielders there, and possibly more. We need a star mid that can take the heat off our lesser mids (like Moloney). We are practically no chance of trading for one, so we'd be best off chasing them with our top 5 picks. We may even have one already with Viney.

[beelzebub 23,379]

So we just have gun forwards hanging around waiting for this Mythical miidfield 'develop' do we. ?

Bit like getting in a cab, meter goes on and we park !!

I as it happens think Trenners will become a very useful mid and a great leader. Jonesy is a go getter ( but withot the polish, might have one day, might not ) Beamer seems better suited elsewhere now. Vineyis the great hope, but will take a while to really get going at the elite level. We cant pin all on him or the others.We need an already developed game able mid to settle and power the midfield. This gives us options whether it be setup or injury etc.

Persoannly Id rather take some of our money to secure the likes of Russian and anyone else worthy of resigning. Take whatever's left in the war chest and go buy a really good mid. A working and potent midfield will feed the likes of Clark, Howe, Jurrah, Garland/Watts. Chuck in the likes of Cook, Green ( though not for much longer one suspects ) Slyvia, Davey, Martin ...Petterd etc and we do have goal kickers....what we dont have is an abundance of supply. Pound the forward 50 with input and the scoreboard WILL tick over.

Loading up the forward line with expensive guns is tantemount to putting the cart before the horse....imho

[Grandson of a gun 276]

Loading up the forward line with expensive guns is tantemount to putting the cart before the horse....imho

Couldn't agree more!

[Ouch! 2,263]

we could offer the same as freo and still get him due to location

... and Neeld, Leigh Brown, and the Head Physio being at the Pies last year can't hurt you wouldn't think.....

Freo have John Anthony I guess

[Yossarian 1,820]

I imagine we'd be getting Cloke as much for his attitude and work ethic as for his ability to take a contested mark. I reckon Neeld's taken a lot from Mick Malthouse's school of thought of players with ambition over players with talent.

This is Malthouse talking about Cloke in an interview with 3AW:

"He wanted that football, he would demand that football, he would run in front of packs and try to mark the football. He was a big guy, he dominated junior football … but we needed to teach him to jump for the football, because he didn’t need to. But the work ethic of Clokey … is unbelievable. He would get on the track and he would be last off. You would have to rope him and drag him off and he wanted to be the best. Give me a player with ambition – he has got a fierceness for the football. Ambition is the greatest thing of all time – if you lack ambition, you take shortcuts."

[rpfc 28,482]

But if you have the cart for the next 5 years, your horses have plenty of time to get going...

I have no issue with the 'get the midfield right' argument - it is the priority. Midfields win flags.

But how often does the second best KP forward in the game become available?

[Ouch! 2,263]

They lost in 2011 didnt they?

I'm not saying he isn't worth it or that they aren't gold. I am saying that midfields are more important.

Cloke and Dawes, Mooney and Hawkins, Reiwoldt and Kozi, fantastic but let's see em kick a winning score and make defenders nervous when the ball is in there only 40 times a game, and delivered poorly on many of those occasions too.

They were all supported by awesome midfields.

Even buddy and roughy were/are although buddy is an absolute freak and is one of the very few who could do it with a lesser midfield.

I'm not saying gorillas aren't valuable, but midfields are more so and we still need far more development there than anywhere else.

Might just be my take on it, (and not disagreeing about needing a good midfield) but 2011 I would suggest that Tom Hawkins dragged them over the line in that second half. He was grabbing everything in site, and could have finished with 3-5 more goals if he didn't have the goal kicking yips, but he was the catalyst for turning that game in Geelongs favour IMO.

[beelzebub 23,379]

Our midfield woes can be solved through the draft. We'll have 3 first round picks, including 2 in the first 5. We should be able to hit 2 good midfielders there, and possibly more. We need a star mid that can take the heat off our lesser mids (like Moloney). We are practically no chance of trading for one, so we'd be best off chasing them with our top 5 picks. We may even have one already with Viney.

How?? We draft a few..its always hit and miss ( for all clubs) as to who really comes on and when. You have the lag effect. it takes 50-75 games to get motors running and tuned ( rare, very rare otherwise ) Yes Viney will help...thats help...not cure.

But lets get Cloke ( great p[layer no doubt ) and have millions tied up in a handful of players having a picnic waiting for the ball!! Brilliant. Nobel stuff...honestly.

The draft and the resulting delivery is a longer term issue. We need to invigorate the midlfiled....like NOW. or nextbest... Next season. Which means trade or buy ( via free agency etc )

Im certainly not saying Cloke is not a very useful player, for he certainly is. Hes just not the solution to OUR particular problem

[Ouch! 2,263]

But if you have the cart for the next 5 years, your horses have plenty of time to get going...

I have no issue with the 'get the midfield right' argument - it is the priority. Midfields win flags.

But how often does the second best KP forward in the game become available?

When they have their father as their manager... I would imagine every time their contract is up. Which I think is another reason why a longer contract for Cloke would be better than a short term one (you don't have to deal with the Dad as often!!)

Personally don't have a problem with the club throwing a big contract at Cloke, It's not going to win us a flag by itself, but it gets us a significant amount closer IMO. I still find it hard to believe he will leave Collingwood though.

[beelzebub 23,379]

But if you have the cart for the next 5 years, your horses have plenty of time to get going...

I have no issue with the 'get the midfield right' argument - it is the priority. Midfields win flags.

But how often does the second best KP forward in the game become available?

Which particular part of cake and eat it too shall i focus on ??

Un;like a cart which you just garage and depreciate whilst doing nothing...Im sure Cloke would want to be paid...and played. Again ...would Clark and Cloke take turns at macrame on the bench whilst the rest of the team catches up.

You agree the mid is the priority...well thats where we go first.

[Geddy Lee 582]

240 goals in 160 games.

Not worth $1mil a season.

Even Pies supporters know this.

[rpfc 28,482]

Which particular part of cake and eat it too shall i focus on ??

Un;like a cart which you just garage and depreciate whilst doing nothing...Im sure Cloke would want to be paid...and played. Again ...would Clark and Cloke take turns at macrame on the bench whilst the rest of the team catches up.

You agree the mid is the priority...well thats where we go first.

But a 'cloke' of a mid isn't available from what I can see.

We can develop our own mids too now. Misson is a step up from bupkiss and that should reap some benefits next year.

We are talking about A grade players here - Cloke is one, I don't know whether there is a A grade mid that can shoulder our midfield out there on the table.

[daisycutter 29,616]

Which particular part of cake and eat it too shall i focus on ??

Un;like a cart which you just garage and depreciate whilst doing nothing...Im sure Cloke would want to be paid...and played. Again ...would Clark and Cloke take turns at macrame on the bench whilst the rest of the team catches up.

You agree the mid is the priority...well thats where we go first.

so, we can't have our cloke and eat it?......................pity

sorry, couldn't help myself

[beelzebub 23,379]

But a 'cloke' of a mid isn't available from what I can see.

We can develop our own mids too now. Misson is a step up from bupkiss and that should reap some benefits next year.

We are talking about A grade players here - Cloke is one, I don't know whether there is a A grade mid that can shoulder our midfield out there on the table.

We only know of Cloke because of his fathers ego. Are we attempting to develop a potent winning team or just a 'collection' of talent ?

This year introduces free agency. There will be a trade period whos like we have never witnessed before. Personally id be making a beeline for Goddard. Theres one we do know will be up for grabs, just by way of example.

Stick Brendon in the guts...put Viney and others around him and watch the scoreboard light up.

I have no doubt other potential goodies will appear as season comes to a close.

[olisik 4,060]

I think we get him, we address the issues of the mids in the draft, mids develop quicker, Viney will be in the mix and there arnt any major midfielders which can be bought from other clubs easily.

Cloke is the biggest name which is available and i am happy to see the Dees go for him. About time the Dees went hard for some talent rather then always 'saving' money for the future players, who never end up ripening because of the culture at the club. With clokes work ethic it will rub off on the other guys at training and they ll come to flourish on there own

[Range Rover 1,935]

Which particular part of cake and eat it too shall i focus on ??

Un;like a cart which you just garage and depreciate whilst doing nothing...Im sure Cloke would want to be paid...and played. Again ...would Clark and Cloke take turns at macrame on the bench whilst the rest of the team catches up.

You agree the mid is the priority...well thats where we go first.

But who is available? All the premos have re-signed. Who is there to get genuinely excited about? Boak? Just doesn't do it for me. He's no Dangerfield.

Cloke's a big risk, yes. But IMO we should be backing in Neeld (premiership midfield coach) and fitness guru Misson to get out our midfield lads playing to another level by 2013. You're limiting what the likes of Trengove, Gysberts, Jones, McKenzie and Grimes can become with your comments BB. They are C grade now. Why can't they become B grade by next year and A grade by 2014? Why limit them? This is not to even mention the fact that they will be joined by Viney and two top mids from this year's draft.

This A + B + C + D = finals and flag outlook won't work in an 18 team comp. You've got to take bigger risks than that.

Trav Cloke is that bigger risk.

[rpfc 28,482]

We only know of Cloke because of his fathers ego. Are we attempting to develop a potent winning team or just a 'collection' of talent ?

This year introduces free agency. There will be a trade period whos like we have never witnessed before. Personally id be making a beeline for Goddard. Theres one we do know will be up for grabs, just by way of example.

Stick Brendon in the guts...put Viney and others around him and watch the scoreboard light up.

I have no doubt other potential goodies will appear as season comes to a close.

Goddard is a great player but is he a dynamic mid that can shoulder the midfield?

I don't think he is. In fact, I think he would be suited to doing what Watts is doing rather than get 6 clearances and 15 contested possies that Judd averages. Goddard is 2.5 and 8 this year. For example Jones is everpresent in the clinches and he 5 and 10.

Love to get a few 6 and 15 type players but Goddard isn't one, I would even say that Viney is more likely to be that player than Goddard

[Ouch! 2,263]

Love to get a few 6 and 15 type players but Goddard isn't one, I would even say that Viney is more likely to be that player than Goddard

Lets try and lure G Ablett back to Victoria!! Apparently 53 possies isn't doing their development any good up at the GC!!!

Edited June 7, 2012 by Oucher

[stuie 7,374]

Jonesy is a go getter ( but withot the polish, might have one day, might not )

Haven't watched much footy this year have you.....

[PaulRB 6,372]

If we can get Cloak with cash.

Attracting a 22-24 yr quality mid (Boak or ...) becomes easier because the MFC would have demonstrated (via a Cloke deal) that we are seriously striving to win flag asap, and we have good draft picks to use in any trade. In addition, it would also provide a reason for Jamar and Moloney to stick around because we'd have just brought the window forward a year or two.

[rjay 24,939]

I don't overly rate Essendon, but they're top two with just two A grade mids and I'd argue that neither are "stars". West Coast are rock solid these days and sit a top the ladder; and while I acknowledge the contributions of Priddis, Kerr, Shuey, Gaff, Rosa, etc, I'd also argue that none of that group are bona fide stars. Some will put Cox in as a midfielder, which is fair enough and Kerr was once a star, but you get my drift. West Coast are an even side across the field and their game-plan is now second nature. They don't have any weak links.

I think you might be under rating Priddis quite a bit. He is one of the top mids in the game now and Kerr on his day really gives them a lift, we don't have anyone anywhere near that level. I agree with you that they are a vey even side.

[beelzebub 23,379]

Haven't watched much footy this year have you.....

Hes gone from stone to gem...but hes not comensurately polished.

[olisik 4,060]

i think we should get Kerr as well. I think we can get a decent deal for the guy. 2 year contract on a few hund k

Give a bit of extra drive

[DemonWA 3,934]

i think we should get Kerr as well. I think we can get a decent deal for the guy. 2 year contract on a few hund k

Give a bit of extra drive

he's still hard but doesnt impact games like he once did.

pass

[dee-luded 2,959]

Gorilla forwards. Or forwards that are any good. Geelong had two very average forwards in 2007 (Mooney and Ablett). In 2009 they had Mooney and Hawkins. Again they were hardly superstar players then either. And Hawkins played half a game in 2011. West Coast had Lynch but he was hardly a superstar.

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes. St Kilda lost with Reiwoldt and Koschitzke. Port Adelaide kept getting done with Tredrea.

The pertinent question is actually whether you can name any team of the last 15 years that won a flag with anything less than an outstanding midfield unit in the premiership year.

The simple answer is that you cannot.

For the time being, Mitch Clark fulfils one of the big key forward roles. We can continue to develop Cook, McDonald, Sheahan, Fitzpatrick, Gawn, Spencer etc whilst we build midfield strenght. If they start seeing the ball 70 times a game like the Geelong, Collingwood teams of recent times, watch how good our forwards will look then!

I agree. Geelong couldn't win a flag with 9 goal match from GAblett snr.

You need many avenues to goal.

But supply is the critical element.

Mooney effective. McClure was effective. Schwartz was effective.

But running goal kickers is imperative to break open play.