GWS (U-17's) Mini Draft

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

Other than the lightweight that is Jay Clark, can anyone inform me where the rumors regarding GC wanting to offload pick 2 for the mini draft is coming from?

I am sure Martin will be a great player, but THIS draft is supposed to be the exceptionally strong draft is not not?.

GC have been hammered for 2 years, they need good players now, not next year, I know they get O'Meara, but don't people think that Guy McKenna is going to be under a fair bit of pressure to ensure that the Suns perform next year. Deferring what looks like Pick2 in whats universally accepted as a very strong draft to get someone who can't play until 2014 seems a bit unlikely to me.

Also, they only traded pick 4 last year to get number 1, now people think that they will trade 2 for the same chance?

Question for me is... is Martin a certain top 2 pick for next year? possibly, but I recall a time when Stringer, Darling, even Tom Swift and a few other names were rated as highly at a similar age, an injury can quickly change that.

I posted a similar thing elsewhere, but I also wonder whether GWS might be interested in an established player (with a lower first round pick) as more appealing compensation this time around too... So for example (and it's a poor one) but say Will Minson and pick 6.. which gives them a strong body in the middle who might have 2-3 years to play but a slightly lower pick in a very good draft.

Anyway.... I probably don't know squat, but seeing GWS get handed 1, 2 and 3 for 'potential' in very strong draft. Bloody hope not!

Oucher, I also heard this from an AFL club scout. Gold Coast are huge on him, and I suppose they have enjoyed grooming and developing O'Meara and are keen to do the same with Martin. It is going to be a scary midfield in 4 years with Martin, Bennell, Swallow, O'Meara, Prestia etc.

I don't think this draft is quite as strong as it was touted, and I suppose they see Martin as next years pick 1 and are happy to use pick 2 to get it. Just from the little bits I've seen, Martin also has a lot more tricks than Toumpas and O'Rourke, who are the type of players Gold Coast would be looking at with pick 2 this year.

[rolly 149]

If noone bids then gws dont get to keep the kids and they just have to wait a year to go into the draft with everyone else?

Would love it if 17 clubs had the stones to say 'you've had enough top draft picks we'll wait a year and see how things pan out'

[Ouch! 2,043]

Oucher, I also heard this from an AFL club scout. Gold Coast are huge on him, and I suppose they have enjoyed grooming and developing O'Meara and are keen to do the same with Martin. It is going to be a scary midfield in 4 years with Martin, Bennell, Swallow, O'Meara, Prestia etc.

I don't think this draft is quite as strong as it was touted, and I suppose they see Martin as next years pick 1 and are happy to use pick 2 to get it. Just from the little bits I've seen, Martin also has a lot more tricks than Toumpas and O'Rourke, who are the type of players Gold Coast would be looking at with pick 2 this year.

Cheers for that. I noticed you missed Ablett in the midfield.

I am pretty certain that it is very strong at the top end, but it evens out pretty quickly. I still think pick 4 was a safe enough bet for O'Meara and I am pretty certain most people would feel he is worthy of a top 5 pick in this years crop.... Pick 2, you would want to be bloody sure.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Oucher

[olisik 4,060]

I think Hogan would be a great outcome, secure a KPF young so we wouldnt fall short again. I mean honestly, would we really be able to fit all of Mayes, Toumpas, Vlastuin and Viney in our midfield. Im sure 3 out of those 4 would be enough.

[ChaserJ 4,007]

If noone bids then gws dont get to keep the kids and they just have to wait a year to go into the draft with everyone else?

Would love it if 17 clubs had the stones to say 'you've had enough top draft picks we'll wait a year and see how things pan out'

Mini draft was originally intended for GWS to obtain established stars in exchange for the MD picks. Naturally, high draft picks have trumped any players on offer and GC have had a natural advantage in both years, which goes against the grain of why this was introduced in the first place. GC will have effectively gotten themselves two extra number 1 quality players with picks 4 & 2.

Can't blame clubs for exploiting the system, but ultimately I don't think it's achieved what was really meant to.

Edited August 23, 2012 by ChaserJ

[ChaserJ 4,007]

I think Hogan would be a great outcome, secure a KPF young so we wouldnt fall short again. I mean honestly, would we really be able to fit all of Mayes, Toumpas, Vlastuin and Viney in our midfield. Im sure 3 out of those 4 would be enough.

I REALLY like Martin and have him as my first preference, but Hogan's probably a better structural fit for us down the line. The better functioning forward lines in the comp have three legitimate tall targets, so Hogan alongside Clark and maybe Watts as tall no.3 would really give us some strength up forward. The obvious bonus of the deal mooted in the Herald Sun is Viney getting to our second round pick.

Hopefully we end up keeping pick 12, I can see us getting that 'point of difference' player with pace at this pick. Garlett, Kennedy or Simpson would be good here.

[rjay 24,037]

Other than the lightweight that is Jay Clark, can anyone inform me where the rumors regarding GC wanting to offload pick 2 for the mini draft is coming from?

I am sure Martin will be a great player, but THIS draft is supposed to be the exceptionally strong draft is not not?.

GC have been hammered for 2 years, they need good players now, not next year, I know they get O'Meara, but don't people think that Guy McKenna is going to be under a fair bit of pressure to ensure that the Suns perform next year. Deferring what looks like Pick2 in whats universally accepted as a very strong draft to get someone who can't play until 2014 seems a bit unlikely to me.

Also, they only traded pick 4 last year to get number 1, now people think that they will trade 2 for the same chance?

Question for me is... is Martin a certain top 2 pick for next year? possibly, but I recall a time when Stringer, Darling, even Tom Swift and a few other names were rated as highly at a similar age, an injury can quickly change that.

I posted a similar thing elsewhere, but I also wonder whether GWS might be interested in an established player (with a lower first round pick) as more appealing compensation this time around too... So for example (and it's a poor one) but say Will Minson and pick 6.. which gives them a strong body in the middle who might have 2-3 years to play but a slightly lower pick in a very good draft.

Anyway.... I probably don't know squat, but seeing GWS get handed 1, 2 and 3 for 'potential' in very strong draft. Bloody hope not!

Some good points Oucher and I also wonder what they plan to offer Adelaide for Tippett, it will need to be a first rounder.

[Clark_Kent 315]

After just reading the article on Herald Sun it seems to me that we are happy to get Hogan with pick 3 as it means Viney slips to our 2nd.

I would be very happy with this outcome.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

Im not convinced from what i have read that Hogan would be top 4 in next years draft or this years, which would be my query with giving up pick 3-4 for him. when he is big enough to monster his opponents and apparently struggles kicking for goal for such i highly rated teen.

[PaulRB 6,041]

To pass pick 4 to GWS for Hogan is in part designed to discourage GWS from selecting JW and allowing us to take him 2nd round.

Does not make sense to select a player we need to wait a year for otherwise.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

To pass pick 4 to GWS for Hogan is in part designed to discourage GWS from selecting JW and allowing us to take him 2nd round.

Does not make sense to select a player we need to wait a year for otherwise.

Doubt GWS will risk Whitfield with pick 1, its GC who we need to worry about imo, when they need inside players more than GWS also. harder to deal with GC subtly though

[Hannibal 5,814]

To pass pick 4 to GWS for Hogan is in part designed to discourage GWS from selecting JW and allowing us to take him 2nd round.

Does not make sense to select a player we need to wait a year for otherwise.

Why not ? We're not going to be pressing for finals next year, so we can afford to have a potential gun key forward on our list for 12 months, especially if it means securing Viney with a second rounder.

I really rate Hogan. He's aggressive, imposing, has courage in the air, contests really well, splits packs, loves body contact and when we're starting to make inroads he and Clark will form a formidable forward-line. I can wait a year to get a player like him on our list. He's similar to Hurley, but moves like a midfielder and is a better mark. How many other quality 193cm key forwards of this type can you currently name in the AFL ? They're as rare as hen's teeth. He's a taller version of Jack Darling. An ordinary footballer like Cam Mooney ended up being a valuable contributor in premiership teams and kicked 67 goals one year. He didn't have a quarter of the talent of Hogan. We're desperate for another key forward and Hogan would be a 10 year fixture.

Anyway, I'm keen in case you can't tell.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Demon Disciple 11,108]

One of the main problems with drafting these hulking forwards is that they are playing against small bodies, once they hit the big time it's a different matter.

If we were to get Hogan, he would at least have a year to train on bigger, AFL seasoned bodies and develop in the VFL as well, making the jump to AFL less daunting, he'd be better advanced than if he were to transition from juniors to AFL in the space of 6 months.

Then there is the issue of his kicking. Butcher apparently had these problems, Cloke continues to have these problems as does Franklin, Hawkins is only just starting to shake off his own. 3 of these 4 forwards are considered to be the premier KPF's of the AFL and Butcher is advancing nicely. ipso facto, goal kicking can get sorted out. The ability to take the contested mark or lead successfully, and creating a continual bruising presence is the main need for KPF's.

[Hannibal 5,814]

One of the main problems with drafting these hulking forwards is that they are playing against small bodies, once they hit the big time it's a different matter.

If we were to get Hogan, he would at least have a year to train on bigger, AFL seasoned bodies and develop in the VFL as well, making the jump to AFL less daunting, he'd be better advanced than if he were to transition from juniors to AFL in the space of 6 months.

Then there is the issue of his kicking. Butcher apparently had these problems, Cloke continues to have these problems as does Franklin, Hawkins is only just starting to shake off his own. 3 of these 4 forwards are considered to be the premier KPF's of the AFL and Butcher is advancing nicely. ipso facto, goal kicking can get sorted out. The ability to take the contested mark or lead successfully, and creating a continual bruising presence is the main need for KPF's.

The best key forwards were stars by the time they were 21, so if he's good enough we won't have to wait long for him to adjust to bigger bodies in the AFL. Also, many strong key forwards don't have his athleticism.

There's no doubt that his kicking for goal is presently his biggest challenge, but his action, unlike the Butcher's of this world is fine. He's certainly not an unco kick.

[PaulRB 6,041]

Why not ? We're not going to be pressing for finals next year, so we can afford to have a potential gun key forward on our list for 12 months, especially if it means securing Viney with a second rounder.

I really rate Hogan. He's aggressive, imposing, has courage in the air, contests really well, splits packs, loves body contact and when we're starting to make inroads he and Clark will form a formidable forward-line. I can wait a year to get a player like him on our list. He's similar to Hurley, but moves like a midfielder and is a better mark. He finished top 3 in the Larke Medal as a bottom age player and made AA. How many other quality 193cm key forwards of this type can you currently name in the AFL ? They're as rare as hen's teeth. He's a taller version of Jack Darling. An ordinary footballer like Cam Mooney ended up being a valuable contributor in premiership teams and kicked 67 goals one year. He didn't have a quarter of the talent of Hogan. We're desperate for another key forward and Hogan would be a 10 year fixture.

Anyway, I'm keen in case you can't tell.

I hope you are right, that he is that good, and ready to roll come March 2014.

I remember we picked up a promising Key forward a couple of years back with the first pick in the draft, and he plays as a back flanker these days. Shows promise, but it's taken 3 years...

Similar progress from Hogan takes us to 2017...

[Daz's Dee's 113]

Can anyone please post a link of footage for both Hogan and Martin ?

Edited August 23, 2012 by Daz's Dee's

[cowboy_from_hell 2,390]

Can anyone please post a link of footage for both Hogan and Martin ?

Here is a interview I found with Hogan. Look at the kids arms!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHIooFPGhq0

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

Doubt GWS will risk Whitfield with pick 1, its GC who we need to worry about imo, when they need inside players more than GWS also. harder to deal with GC subtly though

I am starting to feel more confident about getting Viney in the second. Absolutly GWS won't risk Whitfield. And GC will be more concerned about trying to better their list particularly if they want to trade for a MD pick than trying to play silly buggers with us.

It's a good thing for us if they are after Martin.

Also GWS are more likely to go for Grundy than GC so Toumpas is more likely to fall to us at 3 if GWS end up with pick 2.

And why would we give up pick 3 for Hogan when we could give them 4?

Edited August 23, 2012 by s-t-i-n-g-a

[mdemonski2 403]

Exactly stinga no one will beat 4. So if Gc trade 2 for Martin and get whitfield and Grundy for 1 and 2. We get toumpas at 3 and hogan 4. Kennedy hopefully with 12 and viney round 2.

Everyone's a winner

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

Exactly stinga no one will beat 4. So if Gc trade 2 for Martin and get whitfield and Grundy for 1 and 2. We get toumpas at 3 and hogan 4. Kennedy hopefully with 12 and viney round 2.

Everyone's a winner

Would be wrapped with that!

[You're Gawn 26]

Would rather take another skilful midfielder (e.g. Mayes) at pick 4. It's been clear that our development of big forwards hasn't been quite right so why waste such a good pick on another one? We need mids!

[jurrahcane 70]

agree ... we need mids. I would rather have Sam Mayes & Toumpas, then Jesse Hogan and Toumpas.

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

I agree we need mids...but if we were a chance to land Viney, Toumpas and Kennedy in one hit, we'd be doing ok to grab a big competitive forwarded if he was rated worthy of pick 4.

Our midfield depth stands out now without any senior stars but adding Viney, Toumpas and Kennedy to the likes of Trengove, Grimes, McKenzie, Gysberts, Howe, Blease, Tapscott, it should develop a bit.

But if Hogan is not worth it...another mid would be great.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I hope you are right, that he is that good, and ready to roll come March 2014.

I remember we picked up a promising Key forward a couple of years back with the first pick in the draft, and he plays as a back flanker these days. Shows promise, but it's taken 3 years...

Similar progress from Hogan takes us to 2017...

Paul, how do I answer your question without being critical of Watts ?

Let me just say that as key forwards go they're polar opposites. I can go in depth if you want, but I'm not sure others will enjoy my comparison.

[old55 21,611]

And why would we give up pick 3 for Hogan when we could give them 4?

I don't think you understand.

We are going to take Jack Viney at whatever pick required - we need to give THAT pick to GWS - we need to offer them pick 3 and they won't nominate Jack Viney.

Hogan, pick 4, pick 13, Viney - it's a big win for us and a big win for GWS who will have 1, 2 and 3 in the ND. It effectively means we're getting Hogan for a 2nd round pick.