Training - Monday 19th December, 2011

[btdemon 482]

I'm not sure why we all think Aaron Davey has or even (ever) had good endurance. The bloke is lightning fast. He goes well for 1 maybe 2 sprints then blows up. Has done his entire career. Hence the reason he got to us as a rookie as a 20/21 year old (as well as being stick thin then), the spent the next 2-3 years as a permanent FP. While onball he has more sideline breaks than Dane Swan, he should have built up a better tank over the past few years but will never be elite in this area, perhaps a good reason why he can't break a tag. Ideally he should concentrate on being quick in bursts, be our elusively quick FP again and leave the midfield for those with a tank

It wasn't Davey's decision to go into the midfield, it was ND and then Bailey, who incidentally, stated in '08 that he wished he had "three or four Aaron Daveys". His lack of tank is not his fault. As you can see by all of the reports about pre-season training, it is tightly controlled by the fitness staff. They determine, to a large extent, the fitness profile of the player.

[hoopla 418]

If you can run one way you can run back.

Poor form if you cant, i dont see how running forward tires you anymore than backwards on the field!

I think what he means is that we weren't fit enough to turn around and run back hard the other way!

This logic of Davey having been a midfielder for several years therefore he should be a strong endurance runner doesn't wash with me. Davey and Blease would surely be the quickest two at the club over 5 metres or so; seems like a big coincidence that these two also happen to be struggling with the endurance as well.

This thread is in desperate need of someone who knows what they're talking about chiming in, because there's a lot of guesswork going on right here that is leading to some nasty conclusions.

You are right. Davey has been nursing injuries for a long time - and he might be under strict instructions not to risk a recurrence by pushing himself to the limit.

Blease might be on a program designed to improve his strength and power rather than his endurance. The fact that he may not yet have the aerobic capacity of others doesn't necessarily mean that he is not working hard enough.

To the extent that we don't have inside information on things like that - I'd prefer to give the players the benefit of the doubt.

It wasn't Davey's decision to go into the midfield, it was ND and then Bailey, who incidentally, stated in '08 that he wished he had "three or four Aaron Daveys". His lack of tank is not his fault. As you can see by all of the reports about pre-season training, it is tightly controlled by the fitness staff. They determine, to a large extent, the fitness profile of the player.

Correct. I'd like to think that he is doing exactly what the fitness staff have told him to do. Neeld and co may have decided that he is not a natural mid-fielder and that - given his history with injury - modified his program accordingly.

Some will jump all over this .. "Bullsh - he's just soft!".... but we don't actually know.

[nutbean 8,838]

I dont like to spend too much time looking backwards - beside learnings there is little that can be changed retrospectively - to be productive we should spend most of our time looking forward. So the bottom line is that some of the boys have never done a preseason like we are doing now.

There are two parts to a Blease/Davey equation - one which know is having blistering pace. The second part is what is missing - be blistering in both directions and still be blistering at the 30 minute mark of Q4.

The staff we have now is obviously addressing the second part of the equation. So I will cut everyone slack as this preseason should be seen as the new dawn.

[Nasher 33,616]

I'd prefer to give the players the benefit of the doubt.

Precisely, hoopla. Too many people are willing put players in a guillotine on information that is at best a stretch, and at worst plain made up.

The best training reports are the ones that just report the facts and spare us the uneducated editorialisation.

[bjDee 1,249]

and spare us the uneducated editorialisation.

That's gotta get the award for the most syllables that can be packed into 2 words in today's posts.

[Webber 10,468]

This logic of Davey having been a midfielder for several years therefore he should be a strong endurance runner doesn't wash with me. Davey and Blease would surely be the quickest two at the club over 5 metres or so; seems like a big coincidence that these two also happen to be struggling with the endurance as well.

This thread is in desperate need of someone who knows what they're talking about chiming in, because there's a lot of guesswork going on right here that is leading to some nasty conclusions.

Well said......there is a huge difference between footballers in their physiological profiles. The fact that Aaron Davey and Sam Blease struggle as soon as the endurance requirements build will have almost everything to do with their specific characteristics. Basically at either end of the spectrum you have pure sprinters, whose muscles have the highest percentage of 'fast twitch' fibres, at the exclusion of 'slow twitch' fibres (think Gary Ablett snr.), and pure endurance athletes, where the fibre typing is the reverse (marathon runners, the Schleck brothers of Tour de France fame). There is any variation in between these extremes, and numerous other factors come into play, such as height and limb lever lengths, which will affect specific abilities. As a rough generality, heavily muscled physiques (Moloney) will tend to have fast twitch predominance, as those fibres have a greater capacity for hypertrophy (growth), and skinny guys (Morton) the opposite. There is a misconception that skinny cultural types such as indigenous australians, are naturally endurance favoured, but I would suggest the vast majority of AFL indigenous players are fast twitch, 'burst' athletes, and given that they are represented in the AFL at 8 times their representation in the Australian population, they enjoy quite an extreme physiology.

Every body has a percentage of fibres that can be influenced or trained either way, and a fast twitch athlete can improve their endurance, and slow twitch can improve their strength/power capabilities, but to a varying degree. Endurance abilitites naturally improve through the 20's and 30's, then slowly drop through middle age, which is why you see experienced players able to go longer through a game, and another reason why maturity is essential in your playing group (look at Geelong this year). Of course mental experience is also essential, but it is still largely physiological. This is basically related to an individual's 'VO2 max', that is, their body's ability to take in and use oxygen efficiently, and their 'lactate threshold', which is the point at which the body starts to rapidly develop lactic acid which will curtail muscle performance. We all have a genetically determined base level, and the rest is training and time. For example, Cadel Evans has the highest VO2 max ever tested at the AIS, and he was still a mountain biker at the time. He was born extreme.

The fitness and coaching staff will be COMPLETELY aware of the characteristics of each player on the list, and their goal will be to maximise and make use of their extreme abilities (Davey and Blease for their burst speed), and improve their other end (ability to go all game) as best they can without risking compromise to their more unique talent. The fact that Davey and Blease couldn't stay with Leigh Williams merely tells me that Williams is probably more an 'all rounder' and will lack the special talent of either end. Thankfully, football requires a whole bunch of other abilities.

As an illustrative anecdote, and one which I loved at the time, I was cycling a leg of the Tour de France in 2006 (organised for hacks like me every year, to see how the big boys suffer), and on the first 15 km climb of a 190km stretch, when I casually wheeled past Sir Chris Hoy, (he was just 'Chris' at the time) the Gold medal winner in the Cycling Sprint at Beijing 2 years later!!!. He had the biggest thighs I'd ever seen, but they were seriously struggling. He was interviewed after the event, quoting that it was the hardest day he'd ever had physically. I finished an hour faster than him, and am myself burdened by athletic mediocrity.......... horses for courses.

On the topic of physical extremes, a colleague was consulting big Max Gawn a couple of days ago, the morning after his ACL repair and getting him upright for the first time, and wasn't quite prepared for his height (apparently he is smaller lying down!), to the point where she let out an exclamatory ''F*** you're big!" . Anyway, he's on the road back, good luck Maxy.

[Guest Thomo]

Thanks Webber, good read.

[waynewussell 5,748]

Webber... most enlightening and credible post of this nature that I have read for some time. I look forward to more...

[monoccular 17,431]

Webber -- a refreshing post from someone who sounds as if they know a bit.

Well said....horses for courses, but also do the best to add a bit for the other courses without killing the primary asset.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

You can believe all the scientific mumbo jumbo you like, but Aaron Davey was miles behind Bennell and Nicholson, who are probably just as quick as he is these days. Also whilst Davey isn't training for the tour de france he certainly isn't training for the Olympic 100m sprint, he's training for the AFL and regardless of position must be very fit. Misson wouldn't send him out there for repeat 3 minute runs if he didn't want him to do well at them.

I don't understand why people continue to make excuses for Davey who is meant to be a leader for us but played like a sook for most of 2011. I bet you will be the same people who come on here half way through next year and complain that he's giving us nothing.

[Nasher 33,616]

That's gotta get the award for the most syllables that can be packed into 2 words in today's posts.

Heh, yeah, sorry about that. I had to look up "editorialisation" to make sure it was actually a word - it sounded real in my head

Webber - thanks for the contribution. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for when I said "someone who knows what they're talking about".

[Nasher 33,616]

You can believe all the scientific mumbo jumbo you like, but Aaron Davey was miles behind Bennell and Nicholson, who are probably just as quick as he is these days. Also whilst Davey isn't training for the tour de france he certainly isn't training for the Olympic 100m sprint, he's training for the AFL and regardless of position must be very fit. Misson wouldn't send him out there for repeat 3 minute runs if he didn't want him to do well at them.

I love a good "screw the science, *I* know best" post. Always good for a laugh.

[Brayshaws' Helmet 143]

You can believe all the scientific mumbo jumbo you like, but Aaron Davey was miles behind Bennell and Nicholson

God damn science! They took our Jobs!

As long as you saw and you know that you're right Master, that's all that really matters

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I love a good "screw the science, *I* know best" post. Always good for a laugh.

You are in fine form in the lead up to Christmas atm

Keep this up and there would have to be an opening for you in the Boxing Day Test!!!

[demon-4-life 467]

@Webber, 100% agree with your post.

And while fast twitch fibres are inherited, I was under the impression that slow twitch fibres could be developed. Thus meaning that the types of Blease and Davey could still keep their fast twitch fibres, but develop their slow twitch ones(endurance).

Or are you saying that if they develop their slow twitch muscle types, their fast twitch ones may suffer and they lose their "x-factor"?

[Nascent 9,215]

Great summation Webber.

To further add to his post, endurance training leads to a greater density of mitochondria in slow twitch fibres (type I). The mitochondria are factories in all cells that metabolise glucose into usable energy (Adenosine tri-phosphate or ATP) via oxidation. The greater the number of mitochondria allows a greater production of ATP to be supplied to the working muscles (as well as other organs). This of course is not the only factor that contributes to endurance capabilities. Some others include myoglobin (oxygen carrying structure in muscle cells) and capillary density surrounding each fibre. In resistance training, hypertrophy of muscle fibres and increased fluid in the fibre results in a reduction of mitochondrial, myoglobin and capillary density.

Interestingly, some evidence suggests that resistance training can improve endurance performance. The hypothesis being that resistance training improves running economy via improved efficiency of motor units recruitment and increased tendon stiffness.

Type 2B fibres have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy, at least in the early stages of training. Type 2B fibres characteristically have less myoglobin and mitochondria, but larger stores of ATP enzymes to produce fast contractions. As a consequence, they can produce fast powerful contractions but fatigue quickly with the absence of adequate oxygen supply resulting in lactic acid production. However, studies have shown that type 2B fibres are converted to type 2A fibres following resistance training. Type 2A fibres are more energy efficient and have a greater endurance capacity compared to type 2B.

Another thing to remember is that while the percentage of fast and slow twitch fibres vary from person to person, it also varies from muscle to muscle.

Praise be to science.

[Webber 10,468]

Great summation Webber.

To further add to his post, endurance training leads to a greater density of mitochondria in slow twitch fibres (type I). The mitochondria are factories in all cells that metabolise glucose into usable energy (Adenosine tri-phosphate or ATP) via oxidation. The greater the number of mitochondria allows a greater production of ATP to be supplied to the working muscles (as well as other organs). This of course is not the only factor that contributes to endurance capabilities. Some others include myoglobin (oxygen carrying structure in muscle cells) and capillary density surrounding each fibre. In resistance training, hypertrophy of muscle fibres and increased fluid in the fibre results in a reduction of mitochondrial, myoglobin and capillary density.

Interestingly, some evidence suggests that resistance training can improve endurance performance. The hypothesis being that resistance training improves running economy via improved efficiency of motor units recruitment and increased tendon stiffness.

Type 2B fibres have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy, at least in the early stages of training. Type 2B fibres characteristically have less myoglobin and mitochondria, but larger stores of ATP enzymes to produce fast contractions. As a consequence, they can produce fast powerful contractions but fatigue quickly with the absence of adequate oxygen supply resulting in lactic acid production. However, studies have shown that type 2B fibres are converted to type 2A fibres following resistance training. Type 2A fibres are more energy efficient and have a greater endurance capacity compared to type 2B.

Another thing to remember is that while the percentage of fast and slow twitch fibres vary from person to person, it also varies from muscle to muscle.

Praise be to science.

Praise indeed! Although mumbo jumbo to some apparently . Now if we could just get our ruckmen to maximise their quantum jumping!!! The 2B/2A stuff is really interesting, and highlights the degree to which tissue type and its transformative quality has a plasticity and potential which we've only just begun to really discover. I guess stem cell science is the bones of this, and is certainly becoming rapidly popular as a regenerative therapy (mostly tendons at this stage). I have little doubt this will be used/abused to alter muscle characteristics in elite sport.

Really what all supporters want to see is their players trained to their potential, be it physical, emotional or intellectual (football related of course), but some on here are having trouble distinguishing physical determinants from mental determinants. All the athletic attributes in the universe aren't worth much without the right head game.......

[Bossdog 2,002]

Praise indeed! Although mumbo jumbo to some apparently . Now if we could just get our ruckmen to maximise their quantum jumping!!! The 2B/2A stuff is really interesting, and highlights the degree to which tissue type and its transformative quality has a plasticity and potential which we've only just begun to really discover. I guess stem cell science is the bones of this, and is certainly becoming rapidly popular as a regenerative therapy (mostly tendons at this stage). I have little doubt this will be used/abused to alter muscle characteristics in elite sport.

Really what all supporters want to see is their players trained to their potential, be it physical, emotional or intellectual (football related of course), but some on here are having trouble distinguishing physical determinants from mental determinants. All the athletic attributes in the universe aren't worth much without the right head game.......

I think all my twitch fibres have deserted me

[old dee 23,792]

I think all my twitch fibres have deserted me

Mine too mate especially in my right leg.

Jokes aside I do not take too much notice of pre Christmas training.

It is the games in April That I watch closely.

Over a long period of time at a number of clubs I have noticed that a lot of the best players are ordinary looking Pre Christmas.

when the going gets tough the tough get going.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

Yay more mumbo jumbo, isn't it great.

You are over complicating things - Aaron Davey finished about half a lap down in the last 3 minute run on every other player who was running, before slowly walking back in to the huddle. That is all you need to know. Don't get confused with fast twitch and slow twitch and oxygen and all this crap. I'm not doubting your science, I'm just doubting your application of it. All you need to know is that Aaron Davey is among the worst runners at the club at the moment. Now if you can justify that in terms of science that's great. If you can excuse that because of recovery from injury then that's even better. But to me the logic is in believing that it's those excuses and justifications that have led to us not winning a flag since the 60's.

[Bossdog 2,002]

Lets not panic too much It's not even Christmas yet

[Nasher 33,616]

But to me the logic is in believing that it's those excuses and justifications that have led to us not winning a flag since the 60's.

I reckon Aaron Davey's lack of fitness definitely cost us a few flags in the 70s.

Ok, I'll stop now.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

I reckon Aaron Davey's lack of fitness definitely cost us a few flags in the 70s.

Ok, I'll stop now.

Why do you think we haven't won a flag since 64? Or why the last two times we've made a GF we've been belted? Or why haven't we played finals for 5 years now? I'd say a fair bit of it would be because we've had too many people from the supporters up who tolerate mediocrity.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Webber & Nascent great reads, I learned a lot of new words I hadn't heard before.

But that aside I thought Football was about Get the ball thats "A" then kick the ball through the goals, thts "B".

So the only thing we want them to know is how to get from A to B more than the opposition, or is that too simple.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yay more mumbo jumbo, isn't it great.

...

But to me the logic is in believing that it's those excuses and justifications that have led to us not winning a flag since the 60's.

I'll join Nasher in having a chuckle.