Steph Martin & Mitch Clark...

[rpfc 28,541]

No I wouldn't like to do that. Too time consuming.

Well then, maybe have a think about it at some point, hmm?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2011&rt=LA&st=HO

Here is a list when you have time.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Well then, maybe have a think about it at some point, hmm?

http://www.footywire...011&rt=LA&st=HO

Here is a list when you have time.

Wow, stats of average hit outs. Ground breaking stuff RPFC.

While you have access to these stats, why don't you also give me a list of average marks, goals, taps to advantage, kicking efficiency handballs and any other variables you find so I can come to a more accurate conclusion of which second ruckmen I would have over Stef Martin.

Cheers.

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Well then, maybe have a think about it at some point, hmm?

http://www.footywire...011&rt=LA&st=HO

Here is a list when you have time.

But from that amazing list of average hit-outs per game the second ruckmen above Stef are as follows:

Zac Smith

Trent West

Brent Renouf

Max Bailey

Shaun Hampson

Tom Bellchambers

Andrew Browne

Cameron Wood

Jonothan Griffen

That's nine big one's.

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[demon-4-life 467]

I'd suspect its russian and stef rotating ruck and fwd. With clark and either of russian/clark always down there, leaves jurrah, howe, sylvia to do their thing.

Watts and Bate will be lead ups at CHF, mark, quick swing around and kick into forward line quickly. With marking ability of jurrah, howe, sylvia, russian, clark, stef....going to hard to match up on.

That would be my game plan.

[furious d 469]

Martin could get progressively better to the point where he is a real weapon. He also could plateau and may not get better than he showed in 2011. I agree with stevethemanjordan, we were all excited about Martin's 2011 because of the low expectations, not because he became a gamebreaker. That's not to say it wasn't impressive but we shouldn't get caught up in thinking that he is going to be the next dominant big man of the comp. It is for this reason I suggested a couple of months ago he be trade bait as his value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get.

You'd seriously trade a bloke because his "value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get". So you'd trade every late pick gem and anyone over 27 as soon as they are in form. Seriously, that is not a reason to trade someone. Loyalty is a 2 way street, players would desert in droves if you treated them with such contempt.

[The Chazz 4,077]

You'd seriously trade a bloke because his "value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get". So you'd trade every late pick gem and anyone over 27 as soon as they are in form. Seriously, that is not a reason to trade someone. Loyalty is a 2 way street, players would desert in droves if you treated them with such contempt.

People have been so obsessed with youth/draft picks Furious, that they have forgotten what team stability is. You don't get rid of a player, like Jamar, when he is 27, and has 4-5 years of top footy left in him. We want a team full of top players that will be strong for a decade, not get them to their potential then wave them goodbye!

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I actually think Rivers is the one that will be phased out, eventually due to the acquisition of Clark. All our other talls are mobile, solid kicks of the football. Rivers is neither and is regularly shown up for pace. Perhaps he could play the Maxwell role as sweeper? But apart from that he's the one that'll get left behind.

Maybe everyone should check out Rivers disposal efficiency....83+ percent number one in our team for all the haters out there!

Stats are stats but you cant be that bad at disposing the ball when you do it at 83% i understand this includes handballs as well but so does everybodies

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/2011%20stats/tabid/7429/default.aspx

Edited October 18, 2011 by Jordie_tackles

[rpfc 28,541]

Wow, stats of average hit outs. Ground breaking stuff RPFC.

While you have access to these stats, why don't you also give me a list of average marks, goals, taps to advantage, kicking efficiency handballs and any other variables you find so I can come to a more accurate conclusion of which second ruckmen I would have over Stef Martin.

Cheers.

But from that amazing list of average hit-outs per game the second ruckmen above Stef are as follows:

Zac Smith

Trent West

Brent Renouf

Max Bailey

Shaun Hampson

Tom Bellchambers

Andrew Browne

Cameron Wood

Jonothan Griffen

That's nine big one's.

I was just looking for a quick list of ruckmen STMJ...

And I would rate Martin as equal or better than all you mentioned.

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

If we're looking at tall forward lines, I think a good one to look at is West Coast's. They have heaps of tall forwards/ruck and are able to play them in the same team.

Their forward line for their final against Collingwood was:

HF: Nicoski Kennedy Le Cras

FF: Darling Lynch Naitanui

Can we get a similar forward line with talls?

HF: defensive small forward (?) Watts goalkicking small forward (Jurrah?)

FF: Howe Clark Martin

Also, Gawn is the replacement for Jamar when he retires or when Gawn overtakes him. There's no way we'll trade Gawn. They'll trade/retire Jamar before they think about trading Gawn.

[Dr. Mubutu 855]

He kicked 5 a couple of years ago playing forward against Carlton.

If you're trying to talk up Jamar's usefulness as a forward, I wouldn't be bringing up that particular game.

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

If you're trying to talk up Jamar's usefulness as a forward, I wouldn't be bringing up that particular game.

Hahaha! Yes a perfect night to prove that stats can indeed lie....

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,602]

Stef Martin is about the only person who had the composure in 2011 to reliably stand back and kick set shots. I like him in the forward line and I think Watts would offer more on the wing or in the backline. Personally I think Mitch will play forward, with stef martin rotating in the forward 50 as well.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Norm Smith's Curse

[Viney Vidi Vici 148]

My name's Stefan, and I've never understood how people still spell it Stephan even after seeing it in writing a thousand times...

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

1 ruck, 1 backup ruck/utility, + 1 200cm ruck/forward + 1 195cm KP forward/HBF, plus Jurrah/Petterd/Howe to all fit inside the fifty...? No... I'd say get rid of at least one of the big boys.

But if you ask if there's room for Jamar, Martin, Clark and Watts as well as all the mid sized forwards... then yes, I'd say there is room. For two reasons: Firstly because every one of those players have spent the majority of their careers OUTSIDE the cramped forward fifty. They're all very flexible players, as are all the mid sized forwards. Secondly, because... well... all four big men have all proven they can play, to varying degrees.

It's worth playing all of them. 4 talls with huge flexibility, intuitively coached, could be the next step.

[Chook 15,013]

My name's Stefan, and I've never understood how people still spell it Stephan even after seeing it in writing a thousand times...

It's easy. They're idiots.

[H_T 3,049]

My name's Stefan, and I've never understood how people still spell it Stephan even after seeing it in writing a thousand times...

Same goes for the "Maloney" and "Clarke" culprits.

* Moloney

* Clark

[Webber 10,476]

Steve, am I right in saying that you see the deficiencies in Jamar's game as being less of a problem than Martin's deficiencies?

Jamar is by no means the "ideal" all-round ruckmen, he's just one of the best in the business at stoppages. But he gives us little around the ground, and nothing forward or back. Or do you think that what he gives us at stoppages outweighs his shortcomings?

And which is more likely to improve - Martin's work at stoppages, or Jamar's work around the ground?

Completely agree......Martin is simply a better footballer than Mark Jamar, and has his best 4 to 5 years in front of him.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

You'd seriously trade a bloke because his "value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get". So you'd trade every late pick gem and anyone over 27 as soon as they are in form. Seriously, that is not a reason to trade someone. Loyalty is a 2 way street, players would desert in droves if you treated them with such contempt.

I wouldn't trade out a player just because he had a good season, you have to weigh these things up.

Martin had a very good year in 2011. However I think the perception was greater than the reality, that is it maybe wasn't as good as everyone is talking it up to be. This is true not just of people within the club but around the league.

Now I've seen players have good seasons like this before and people think they will go on to become superstars. Case in point players like Brad Miller, Cam Bruce etc. The truth is most of the time these players do not improve beyond their "breakout" years and in fact have reached their potential. If I had to make a considered decision I'd probably say Martin will be similar to this. He may not be and I hope he continues to improve but if I had to guess I'd say he'll probably plateau rather than continue an exponential improvement.

Another consideration is we do have Jamar as first ruck, Gawn as a developing ruck, Spencer as a back up and now Mitch Clark. Given this it could be seen that Martin may be expendable. You wouldn't delist him or give him away for nothing, but if another club is interested and we are able to nab a decent midfielder or crumbing forward for example then you'd have to weigh up your options.

By no means should you throw the baby out with the bathwater, but had we decided to shop guys like Miller or Bruce around earlier in their careers rather than right at the end we probably could have got something decent in return and something probably above their real value.

But we have decided to keep Martin on and I am not unhappy with this decision. I hope he continues to improve and think he could play a role. I just won't be disappointed if he doesn't go on to become as good as Naitanui who some people here seem to be comparing him to.

EDIT: I also agree with you about the loyalty part which is why these decisions have to be weighed up.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Dr. Gonzo

[baysidedave 246]

Interesting talk earlier tonight on SEN Mark Fine's programme.

Now we have Mitch Clark can we play Steph Martin, Mark Jamar and Max Gawn in the same side??

Is it Steph at CHF and Clark at FF or vice Versa??

What does everyone think the coach has in mind??

I think Steph could work at CHF myself Watts on the Flank and Half Back...But it sure changes our dynamic this trade..

Thoughts....?

Gawn is around till Jamar is finished which could be in next 2 years, Martin will hopefully be second big forward and 2nd ruckman, Clark will stay up front

[baysidedave 246]

Gawn is around till Jamar is finished which could be in next 2 years, Martin will hopefully be second big forward and 2nd ruckman, Clark will stay up front

Watts will play floating HFF and wingman

[old55 23,625]

As posted in the other thread I'd definitely play Jamar, Martin and Clark (as permanent tall forward) together - otherwise you don't get enough tall forward. I think that Gawn and Spencer can only replace Jamar in that set because they lack Martin's mobility and Clark's tall forward capability. I think that makes Martin a good retainer - the back-up/threat to him is Fitzpatrick.

IMO its Jamar, Gawn and Spencer as 1st ruck alternatives and Martin as 2nd ruck with Clark and Fitzpatrick as forward/ruck if necessary.

It's going to get tricky at the end of next year - Jamar is out of contract and 29, Spencer is out of contract and Gawn has a year to run. If we give Jamar 2 years, which he'll deserve then Spencer is very tradeable - I rate him and don't agree with those who don't. We'll need to convince Gawn that succeeding Jamar in 2015 as an acceptable outcome so we can recontract him at the end of 2013 - that could seem a long way away to him at that time - he will no doubt get offers to be 1st ruck elsewhere in 2014.

Edited October 18, 2011 by old55

[Adam The God 30,286]

Maybe everyone should check out Rivers disposal efficiency....83+ percent number one in our team for all the haters out there!

Stats are stats but you cant be that bad at disposing the ball when you do it at 83% i understand this includes handballs as well but so does everybodies

http://www.melbourne...29/default.aspx

I'm no a hater at all. Love Rivers' work, but this year he was shown up for pace. That is undeniable. His kicking at times can be superb, while on other occasions it leaves a lot to be desired. He's not the only one, I guess. So let's just concentrate on the pace issue. Definitely is one. He still reads the play superbly, but does struggle to get to some contests as a result of his pace.

[Viney Vidi Vici 148]

Fitzpatrick- will struggle for a game this season I believe, unless there are injuries. unfortunate.

Clark- will definately stay forward

Martin- his place in the side I see to be linked directly with how the midfielders are playing. if they are strong, we can play him, if they are struggling, Martin may miss out for another runner.

Spencer- Won't get a game, probably tradebait next year.

Gawn- Hopefully get him a few games, get more used to AFL, as I definately think he will be number 1 ruck in the future.

Jamar- no#1 ruck, but possibly see being put up for trade next year if theres any currency in him, if Gawn has an outstanding season. By end of 2013, may be too alte, or he may be retiring, for all we know.

Gawn is the ruck future, and unfortunately we may have to move Jamar on a year earlier than we want to keep Gawn with us past 2013. Four years by that stage, and if he still has limited opportunities, he would definately look elsewhere.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I was just looking for a quick list of ruckmen STMJ...

And I would rate Martin as equal or better than all you mentioned.

Well rather than trying to be the smartarse that you are, next time 'take the time' to have a read up on

the information you're providing you goose.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

If you're trying to talk up Jamar's usefulness as a forward, I wouldn't be bringing up that particular game.

Read the post again.

I said he has the ability to go forward and kick goals and I used that game as evidence. He kicked 5.

And yes that game we were beaten convincingly so doesn't that say something?