David Hale

[Guest hangon007]

Which would put GC in box seat you'd have thought. And they have plenty of picks to trade.

Yes if he wants to move to the GC ... no if he wants to stay in Melbourne. Hale holds all the cards here ... think North will be limited to dealing with Hales preferential destination.

[dee-luded 2,959]

You should trust your initial instinct on this one.

In my view, PJ's standard of rucking, marking and general aerial ability is so shocking that some of us have been spooked into the idea of taking on any old replacement. I get the feeling that the club's mindset is that incremental improvement (which is what Hale is at best) is good enough and personally I fear that our 2nd pick is on the table here.

The poster you quoted states that Hale only played ruck as a 21/22 yr old (and for some reason had to mention twice that he was still developing). That should ring alarm bells because at 26 (if the cliche stands) Hale should be coming into it as ruckmen apparently take time yet he's been over taken by a 22 yr old (who by the poster's logic is still developing).

Hale is slow, an ordinary tap ruckman for his height, extra weight doesn't seem to be a biproduct of extra strength and I see other comments about his ability that are none too complimentary regarding defensive pressure and agility. He's had quite some time to prove and improve on his rucking ability and as you put it so eloquently earlier he is a spud.

If we had both Hale and PJ on our list yes I would play Hale before PJ but there isn't much in it and what Hale may offer up forward (which IMO isn't that much) PJ at least makes up for in run and chase - both are spuds at the stopages or in the packs so if we give away our 2nd pick for him then North have done very well.

I think it seems that we're looking for a Key Tall who plays Tall.... Doesn't have to be the best mark around, but needs to use the body to position to help our crumbers, & needs to be a tall target to attract both the ball in his direction & also the focus of the opposition defenders. This would be a temp position until the tall kids demand the spot from him.

I think Fraser could be a better option in these considerations, but maybe he's being convinced by GCSuns. I wasn't on the Fraser band wagon 'til now.

[agent_orange 0]

I think it seems that we're looking for a Key Tall who plays Tall.... Doesn't have to be the best mark around, but needs to use the body to position to help our crumbers, & needs to be a tall target to attract both the ball in his direction & also the focus of the opposition defenders. This would be a temp position until the tall kids demand the spot from him.

I think Fraser could be a better option in these considerations, but maybe he's being convinced by GCSuns. I wasn't on the Fraser band wagon 'til now.

Should have made a play for mumford last year. I reckon Fitzpatrick will be a better option. Just needs to bulk up. Both would probably have the same impact - just one is younger with room to improve.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Should have made a play for mumford last year. I reckon Fitzpatrick will be a better option. Just needs to bulk up. Both would probably have the same impact - just one is younger with room to improve.

That goes without saying! That fitzpatrick was recruited for that role, is without question, but he needs time to grow, learn at his own level, & get experience & confidence.

We need a tough old work ute to do the dirty jobs Now. To develop the "Team" from next year, 'to start the winning culture'.

Our young Talls will have a role already developed for them to step into when their ready.

[Mono 455]

Yes if he wants to move to the GC ... no if he wants to stay in Melbourne. Hale holds all the cards here ... think North will be limited to dealing with Hales preferential destination.

I don't think so. Depends on how much north want to move him on. Hale is contracted to them for 2(?) more years.

At this stage, it is Hale who is exploring, it is he who wants out. North can play hard ball if it wants.

It's what happens when you get a 4 yr contract, but are playing in the 2s after 2 yrs.

That said, I bet north are currently paying him over the odds, so would be happy to move him on if they don't need him, and can negate the final 2 yrs of the contract.

[Jaded No More 68,903]

No team is full of world beaters.

Role players are required. The FD would like a resting ruckman capable of taking some pressure off Jurrah and Watts, and give Jamar the occasional rest.

I think some of you want to fill the 22 with dead-set stars of the game. And it won't happen, and nor will you fit them under the cap.

He's younger than Jamar, he has proven himself to be a better goalkicker than Jamar, and he can pitch-hit in the ruck.

If the price is right, and Jesse White and Mitch Clark aren't available, why not?

Agreed. It also gives Gawn and Fitzpatrick more time to develop, and allows us to rid ourselves of the current crop of secondary ruckmen on our list who we know are never going to make it.

There are plenty of ordinary players who play a vital role in a side, even in a premiership side. FFS, Zac Dawson might be a premiership FB next week.

At the end of the day we cannot move onto next season with PJ and Spencer as our only backup options, and we certainly can't shorten Jamar's career by burning him out with 22 consecutive games of 100% ground time.

It's foolish of supporters to be so narrow minded about these things. We're not about to trade Scully for Hale, and we're not about to miss out on a gun kid because we've given up a draft pick to get him. If he helps us ensure that Jamar is still alive and kicking when we're ready to contend for a flag, while also providing some physical protection for Watts/Jurrah, than what have we got to lose?

[e25 5]

How in the hell did Hale manage to get a 4 year contract??!?

[Demons 32 235]

Hale played 12 games this past season.... Which was his worst season so far..... He kicked 17 goals in those 12 games.

So by my calculations he is a better player than PJ will ever be.

He is a better option at this current moment than Spencer who may never make it, Gawn who is very young, very injured and very raw, Martin who won't make it and Fitzpatrick who was pick 50 and while developing has shown no sign that he will be even close to best 22 next year.

David Hale would be a great option for us.

[bing181 9,218]

So by my calculations he is a better player than PJ will ever be.

He is a better option at this current moment than Spencer who may never make it, Gawn who is very young, very injured and very raw, Martin who won't make it and Fitzpatrick who was pick 50 and while developing has shown no sign that he will be even close to best 22 next year.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but I thought that the main reason Fitzpatrick went at 50 were because of questions about his health and ability to manage an ongoing condition.

[pm24 451]

I'm in favour of this move on the pure basis that it helps give our young rucks time to develop, avoiding a scenario where we bring them in too early, only to hurt their longevity in the game (look at what happened to Josh Fraser).

It does give us a decent stop-gap forward/ruck option who would be one of the better 2nd ruckmen in the league. We're not looking for a Jamar upgrade here, just someone who can provide some decent tap work and be effective enough up forward when not in the middle. He would be better than a number of no.2 ruckmen in the league.

Some other no.2's int he league are: Skipper (hawks), Minson/Roughead (Dogs- though roughead is a great young prospect), Jacobs/Hampson (Carlton), Moran/Griffin (Adelaide), Brown/Fraser/Wood (Collingwood), Bellchambers (Essendon), Blake/West (Geelong), Browne/Vickery (Richmond).

That's just some, but where a team doesn't have a young developing ruckmen in the 21-25yo age range coming through, most other no.2 ruckmen appear to be below Hale's standard.

I'd rather see Fitzpatrick and Gawn and Spencer get their bodies right, dominate in the VFL then have the chance to move into the seniors rather than potentially being rushed in to cover injuries.

He may not be part of our next premiership but i think we're at least 3 years away from challenging for that anyway, so who cares if he's here for two years to help fill some gaps. We're NOT going to win a premiership in the next seasons so I think we think of this move as a chance to help the development of our younger rucks, rather than focus on this hindering their development.

[GRUN DEE 69]

He is only 26!

Who says he cannot be part of our next premiership?

Of course he can...

I am in favour of trading for him only if we dont give up too much. A late pick! Warnock & Jones out of bounds for him.

[Guest hangon007]

I don't think so. Depends on how much north want to move him on. Hale is contracted to them for 2(?) more years.

At this stage, it is Hale who is exploring, it is he who wants out. North can play hard ball if it wants.

It's what happens when you get a 4 yr contract, but are playing in the 2s after 2 yrs.

That said, I bet north are currently paying him over the odds, so would be happy to move him on if they don't need him, and can negate the final 2 yrs of the contract.

Yes & No. North can "want" to move him on all they want ... but he has a contract so Hale must agree. Hale would only agree to the club/s of his choice ... hence North have only limited trading partners. If North do want to move him on they have to deal with one of those club/s.

In theory you could have a situation where

1/ Richmond offer a 2nd Round pick ... yet Hale doesn't want to go there - No Deal

2/ We offer a 3rd Round pick ... yet Hale want to go there - then the ball is in Norths court

& visa - versa.

All power is with the player! And contrary to what many think .. clubs dont like paying for players that dont want to play for them. Hale obviously feels he has limited opportunities with North - hence him "exploring" around. Norths only bargaining chip might be offering to pay part of his contract to improve the pick.

The contract merely protects the club from getting "nothing" but it does not entitle them to play "hard ball" that would be madness for player club relationships.

[Red and Blue Flame 186]

Hale played 12 games this past season.... Which was his worst season so far..... He kicked 17 goals in those 12 games.

So by my calculations he is a better player than PJ will ever be.

He is a better option at this current moment than Spencer who may never make it, Gawn who is very young, very injured and very raw, Martin who won't make it and Fitzpatrick who was pick 50 and while developing has shown no sign that he will be even close to best 22 next year.

David Hale would be a great option for us.

Agree

Spencer will be kept. Gawn will be developed and get a full year at Casey touch wood, Fitzpatrick the same. PJ will be delisted.

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

If Hale's opportunities are rare and i see no reason why this would change next year it's really in his best interests to get a longer deal at another club. If he stays at Nth for the final year of his contract and once again fails to make an impression or even worse suffers a major injury he'll be lost to the AFL forever.

That being the case I think convincing Hale to leave North will be easy, convincing him to choose Melbourne over other clubs will prove more difficult.

Appeasing Nth with fair and equitable compensation might also prove difficult. We'll see.

[hoopla 418]

Agree

Spencer will be kept. Gawn will be developed and get a full year at Casey touch wood, Fitzpatrick the same. PJ will be delisted.

I think I'm right in saying that Spencer cannot remain on the rookie list for another (4th) year. The only way to safely retain him would be to promote him to the senior list. Otherwise we'd have to send him to the draft (and/or rookie draft)and take our chances in line with the other clubs.

To me his value is highly questionable - and I'd be reluctant to give him a position on the senior list without fully exploring all our ruck options.

[Pinball Wizard 313]

As far as I'm concerned Hale would be of more value to us if he were put on the Gold Coast list.

However, former Hawk Robert Campbell might be worth a look in the rookie draft. He's recovered from his knee problems and could be good value as a back up ruck and fill in either in defence or attack.

[pm24 451]

He is only 26!

Who says he cannot be part of our next premiership?

Of course he can...

I am in favour of trading for him only if we dont give up too much. A late pick! Warnock & Jones out of bounds for him.

Read my statement again. I said that he MAY not be apart of our next premiership, and then went on to say that I believe we're about 3 years away from challenging. This means that he would be 29-30 if we held onto him, and by that time Gawn and Fitzpatrick would be 22-23, and I would seriously hope that they would have surpassed Hale by that time.

If Gawn and Fitzpatrick come along as well as hoped there'll be no need for Hale in 3-4 years time.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Demons chase Hale

We might have to pay over the odds with GC interested.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

This i a hard one, i think that people are getting carried away with what we want Hale/ a second ruckman for. I agree that Jamar will at this stage aslways be our number 1 ruckman, but Bailey also likes playing him up forward because his body is soso big.

I think that Hale will be targeted to unleash the Big Russian up forward more so than for Hales own ruck or Forward capabilities. Also Jamar cannot solo ruck for the rest of his career, just not possible, it will shorten his career and his effectivness, we have the second best ruck in the comp lets not destroy him.

Hale wont be a great player, but he will be good, can do some ruckwork, Stand tall as a FF taking a player from Green, Pettard, Jurrah, and watts, even Dunn.... this will be where he can help us. and he can take a mark and kick goals during games, even if it is one or two.

I think Bailey is big on reducing the load on Jamar and allowing him that time up forward where he can still be effective, instead of running himself into the ground then to the bench everygame....

The sticking point is Hales price, 3rd rounder would be great but as other have said goldcoast are in the market and have an ubundance of draft picks to potentially throw around. Hale might want to stay in melbourne? could be a helping factor

[Hannabal 4]

This i a hard one, i think that people are getting carried away with what we want Hale/ a second ruckman for. I agree that Jamar will at this stage aslways be our number 1 ruckman, but Bailey also likes playing him up forward because his body is soso big.

I think that Hale will be targeted to unleash the Big Russian up forward more so than for Hales own ruck or Forward capabilities. Also Jamar cannot solo ruck for the rest of his career, just not possible, it will shorten his career and his effectivness, we have the second best ruck in the comp lets not destroy him.

Hale wont be a great player, but he will be good, can do some ruckwork, Stand tall as a FF taking a player from Green, Pettard, Jurrah, and watts, even Dunn.... this will be where he can help us. and he can take a mark and kick goals during games, even if it is one or two.

I think Bailey is big on reducing the load on Jamar and allowing him that time up forward where he can still be effective, instead of running himself into the ground then to the bench everygame....

The sticking point is Hales price, 3rd rounder would be great but as other have said goldcoast are in the market and have an ubundance of draft picks to potentially throw around. Hale might want to stay in melbourne? could be a helping factor

Good summation.

[GRUN DEE 69]

This i a hard one, i think that people are getting carried away with what we want Hale/ a second ruckman for. I agree that Jamar will at this stage aslways be our number 1 ruckman, but Bailey also likes playing him up forward because his body is soso big.

I think that Hale will be targeted to unleash the Big Russian up forward more so than for Hales own ruck or Forward capabilities. Also Jamar cannot solo ruck for the rest of his career, just not possible, it will shorten his career and his effectivness, we have the second best ruck in the comp lets not destroy him.

Hale wont be a great player, but he will be good, can do some ruckwork, Stand tall as a FF taking a player from Green, Pettard, Jurrah, and watts, even Dunn.... this will be where he can help us. and he can take a mark and kick goals during games, even if it is one or two.

I think Bailey is big on reducing the load on Jamar and allowing him that time up forward where he can still be effective, instead of running himself into the ground then to the bench everygame....

The sticking point is Hales price, 3rd rounder would be great but as other have said goldcoast are in the market and have an ubundance of draft picks to potentially throw around. Hale might want to stay in melbourne? could be a helping factor

Exactly!

[Axis of Bob 11,788]

It's been said before, but there are two different types of players in the ruck. There's the typical first ruckman, like Jamar, who does the majority of the rucking. Then there is the forward/ruck. An example is Leigh Brown. Now Brown isn't much of a ruckman, but he is able to hold his spot in the side as a forward/utility, but just happens to be able to ruck for 30 minutes a game.

We would be looking at Hale as a forward who is able to offer 30 minutes of ruck relief a game to Jamar. We currently only have Fitzpatrick (still some time off) and maybe Juice Newton who can play the role Hale would, which is as a key marking forward to sit under the slow, high ball who is able to provide ruck relief for small periods of the game.

It seems that everyone is too worried about what Hale could bring as a ruckman, rather than what he could bring as a key forward.

The reason he is a different prospect to what we have is that he is a tall, strong forward to compete for the high, slow ball. We have a lot of running tall players (Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, Dunn etc) who find space well and have great speed and skills. When the game is open and we are on the counter attack then we are supremely dangerous. But when the play slows down and the opposition gets numbers back then we don't have anyone except Jamar to be able to kick the ball to in order to make a contest and give our forwards an opportunity to score.

He will be a low possession player, but he will provide something we don't have and improve our forward flexibility to play against different styles of opponent.

[TheoX 1,222]

Sorry if it's been said already but apparently Hale is on 400K a year for the next 2 years, if we picked him up I'd be hoping that North would pay a fair bit of that to make it fair.

[Jaded No More 68,903]

The reason he is a different prospect to what we have is that he is a tall, strong forward to compete for the high, slow ball. We have a lot of running tall players (Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, Dunn etc) who find space well and have great speed and skills. When the game is open and we are on the counter attack then we are supremely dangerous. But when the play slows down and the opposition gets numbers back then we don't have anyone except Jamar to be able to kick the ball to in order to make a contest and give our forwards an opportunity to score.

He will be a low possession player, but he will provide something we don't have and improve our forward flexibility to play against different styles of opponent.

Absolutely, and look how many forward entries on Saturday were the long kick under pressure to a pack!

As long as he isn't completely useless at creating a contest when the ball is in the air, he'll provide us with 3-4 extra goals a game just by giving us more crumbing opportunities, even if he only kicks 1 or 2 goals himself.

[jayceebee31 760]

Absolutely, and look how many forward entries on Saturday were the long kick under pressure to a pack!

As long as he isn't completely useless at creating a contest when the ball is in the air, he'll provide us with 3-4 extra goals a game just by giving us more crumbing opportunities, even if he only kicks 1 or 2 goals himself.

Good points you raise and furthermore allowing Jamar to rest at full forward would also greatly impact on the opposing defense.It would also be enhanced if Martin could play in a key defensive role say as a back pocket and take some ruckwork in that area.If we don't pick him up- I like Laycock from Essendon as a worthwhile punt.

Edited September 27, 2010 by jayceebee31