STEPPING BACK - Practice Match Report v Eagles

[Demonland 72,170]

STEPPING BACK by The Oracle

If last week's narrow loss to Adelaide represented a step forward for the Melbourne Football Club then yesterday's 38-point defeat at the hands of West Coast at Casey Fields amounted to two giant steps backward.

Not only did the Demons suffer a major injury blow with the loss of yet another leading player in Colin Sylvia who will be out for several weeks with a broken jaw but the team was clearly exposed for its midfield impotence, its lack of forward power and a missing play book as it floundered without a sense of purpose in the second half against the dominant Eagles line up.

Melbourne started off brightly enough but, as it did a fortnight ago against Essendon, it wasted many eay opportunities in front of goal. On the other hand, West Coast capitalised on the Demons' skill errors to score goals, often against the run of play. The home side overdid its handball and compounded this sin with sloppy execution and decision making.

As the game progressed, the Melbourne game became excruciatingly more difficult to watch as the ball was often handballed at the feet of stationary players or kicked wide of teammates who were thereby constantly put under pressure. They would do well to take a look at the tape of last night's NAB Cup Grand Final to see how the Western Bulldogs dispose of the ball by hand and by foot.

Melbourne's youthful enthusiasm kept it in the game till the main break and it momentarily hit the lead early in the third quarter but it then conceded seven unanswered goals in the face of a whithering West Coast attack. The Demons' confidence was shattered and it was game over at the final break.

Melbourne would be happy with the first up performance of Cameron Bruce but Aaron Davey was again quiet and appeared out of sorts. The Demons relied far too much on their few experienced players and missed the drive given by some of the younger players which almost helped them across the line against the Crows.

In stark contrast to Melbourne, West Coast opened up several avenues to goal with ruckman Nick Naitanui booting two early majors and tall defender Nathan Brown going forward and booting a couple. The Demons often went wide and found themselves boxed in around the flanks and pockets.

Brad Miller was the only target in attack but the team badly lacked big man strength up forward and the Eagles easily repelled many forward moves. It was left to a few individual efforts and in the end the Demons simply fell too short. On this effort, the club faces yet another bleak season.

To make matters worse, forward Austin Wonaeamirri suffered a recurrence of a hamstring injury playing for the Casey Scorpions in the curtain raiser and he faces another stint on the sidelines.

Melbourne 4.6.30 7.9.51 9.10.64 12.14.86

West Coast 5.2.32 9.5.59 12.13.85 18.16.124

Goals

Melbourne B Miller 3 C Bruce N Jones M Bate 2 M Jamar B Green R Petterd

West Coast A Hansen M LeCras 3 M Brown N Natanui A Embley 2 D Cox M Nicoski J Kennedy A Selwood K Stevens M Priddis

Best

Melbourne C Bruce B Miller J McDonald B Green N Jones

West Coast A Selwood S Butler M LeCras A Hansen M Brown A Embley

Injuries

Melbourne Colin Sylvia (broken jaw)

West Coast Nil

Crowd 5,000 (approx) at Casey Fields

KC from Casey reports that draftee Jordan Gysberts and rookie Rhys Healey were both in excellent early form as the Casey Scorpions easily accounted for VFL neighbour Frankston in the curtain raiser after kicking their first ten goals straight with the first blemish coming in the third quarter.

Scorpion stalwarts Kyle Matthews and James Wall were in rare early form for Casey which looks to have unearthed a likely forward prospect in Luke McDonald.

Colin Garland made it through the first half but Austin Wonaeamirri was not so fortunate limping off with a recurrence of his hamstring injury after a quiet start. Michael Newton kicked two goals in the first quarter but missed a few opportunities later in the game while 200cm beanpole Jack Fitzpatrick attacked his game with enthusiasm and was rewarded with two goals.

Seniors

Casey Scorpions 5.0.30 7.0.42 13.6.84 16.10.106

Frankston 1.2.8 4.6.30 4.7.31 6.9.45

Reserves

Casey Scorpions 5.2.32 6.8.44 7.9.51 11.11.77

Frankston 0.2.3 1.3.9 3.6.24 4.6.30

[jayceebee31 760]

It must be so tough to write a report like this one and state the truth as it is. We are really at the bottom of the barrell and need to be open and honest as state it as it is. Well done Oracle- you write very similar to WJ. Many thanks.we may have to get WJ to assist Bails or C.C.

[MO FINE 166]

STEPPING BACK by The Oracle

They would do well to take a look at the tape of last night's NAB Cup Grand Final to see how the Western Bulldogs dispose of the ball by hand and by foot.

I was thinking much the same thing myself but it should be remembered that the Bulldogs have been playing together much longer than most of our present group.

However, it's very clear that the Doggies are very precise with their handball and know when to give it off by hand or whether to dispose by kicking. We just have to get much better at this.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Not only did the Demons suffer a major injury blow with the loss of yet another leading player in Colin Sylvia who will be out for several weeks with a broken jaw but the team was clearly exposed for its midfield impotence, its lack of forward power and a missing play book as it floundered without a sense of purpose in the second half against the dominant Eagles line up.

...

As the game progressed, the Melbourne game became excruciatingly more difficult to watch as the ball was often handballed at the feet of stationary players or kicked wide of teammates who were thereby constantly put under pressure. They would do well to take a look at the tape of last night's NAB Cup Grand Final to see how the Western Bulldogs dispose of the ball by hand and by foot.

Melbourne's youthful enthusiasm kept it in the game till the main break and it momentarily hit the lead early in the third quarter but it then conceded seven unanswered goals in the face of a whithering West Coast attack. The Demons' confidence was shattered and it was game over at the final break.

Thanks Oracle, some common sense.

We better hope the coaches can take from this game similarly, and discover and thrash into the players' heads that "missing play book" before we get humiliated by the injury-hit Hawks.

Of course these young players can't exceute like Geelong or even the Bulldogs last night. So we need to play accordingly. Basic footy, adding as our skills and confidence grow. Confidence won't come from performances like yesterday's.

Bulldogs of course have a potent forward now, which we won't for awhile (lucky we have possibly the best in a few years' time waiting in the wings).

I agree with whoever said about our poor kick-ins, no excuse not to have this worked out & drummed into their heads. And some form of forward structure that fits with the personnel we currently have available.

I have no doubt Bailey is an excellent skills teacher for our current young group. Hope against hope that the older ones can still learn too... because they're important for the confidence of our younger players.

[Guest watts04]

Good review, appreciated.

Lets hope 2010 brings us a few good stories to follow as I don't think we will win too many games.

ie - Watts, Scully, Trengove showing us why they went so high

* Garland, Sylvia, Grimes becoming regular strong contributors

* wipe off debt

etc etc etc

Need some good news stores in 2010. Agree on confidence, once the guys become bigger, stronger and more confident, its amazing how good the game plan will look and how much better the skills will be.

[titan_uranus 25,014]

I've decided to post some of my thoughts on the game in here. Apologies if this is the wrong place to do that.

The clear standouts yesterday were Bennell and Jamar. Bennell was really, really good along half back. Showed poise and skill, as well as a determination for the contest I didn't see from him last year. Impressed me from the start to the end. If he wasn't a certainty to play Round 1, he sure would be now. Jamar was also dominant in the ruck. I felt in the first half that when we moved him out of the ruck the Eagles got on top.

Some other thoughts on other players:

Bail - looked OK in parts but lost at other times. Probably not ready yet

Bate - looked slow, but it was his first game back

Bruce - started well but didn't do so much late, again probably because he had come back from injury

Cheney - still shows more hunger and aggression than a lot of other players, and never shirks a contest, but his skills let him down. I still think he has a future though

Davey - a nothing game from him

Dunn - appalling IMO (but I think I'm in the minority). He just gets lost in the midfield, and when he does get the ball he isn't reliable with it. Should be playing forward, if at all

Frawley - held LeCras when he was on him. LeCras only came into the game when Frawley was moved

Green - only had a few good patches. Missed a sitter of a goal that he should be kicking 100 times out of 100, but the goal he did kick was beautifully executed.

Jamar - dominates in the ruck and took some good marks.

Jones - hardly noticed him, but that's not to say he wasn't any good.

Maric - showed a bit more strength and agility than I've seen before, but I don't think he did enough to warrant selection in Round 1. He plays better closer to goal IMO

Martin - once again was shunted all over the park. This guy can't seem to get settled in one position, and it's hurting him. Needs to play a whole game as a forward I think.

McDonald - played really well, much better than I was expecting from him this year

McNamara - did a few good things, and he can definitely kick, but he was played as a KPP in defence to cover Rivers, and he struggled for size and height. Has talent, but still doesn't have the body. Maybe should be tried forward

Miller - his kicking for goal is woeful (missed one from 15 metres he should never miss as a CHF), and he frustrated me and those around me by marking on the 50 and handballing straight away. Kicked 2 goals, which helps, and until we get Jurrah and Watts back he's going to stay in the team

Moloney - seems to be over his OP, his kicking was pretty good yesterday (in terms of length, that is). Didn't stand out though

Petterd - needs to hang as close to goal as possible I reckon. He is a strong marker and a good lead-up player.

Scully - runs hard, but seems to be trying to do too much at the moment. Will be so much better with a year of experience at this level

Strauss - he can kick, and showed it a few times, but also turned it over a few times. Has the potential to be a high-quality HB but needs more time and probably isn't ready for AFL just yet

Sylvia - injured. Poo

Trengove - just looks so classy out there. Looks equally adept at playing outside as inside

Warnock - had a poor game by his standards. Beaten numerous times.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

I thought there were 11,500 at Casey yesterday?

[RalphiusMaximus 6,048]

Best thing about that report was the Casey games. Garland playing well and no injury. Fitzpatrick getting a couple of goals. Gysberts having a good game. These are all real positives from an otherwise woeful day. Also, just how good a prospect is this Luke McDonald. Given how bad our forwards are atm, he could this be someone to look at in the rookie or PSD this year?

[titan_uranus 25,014]

I thought there were 11,500 at Casey yesterday?

Whatever it was, it made for some tedious waiting to get out of the carpark.

Surely the crowd was well over estimations: the place was packed!

[Whispering_Jack 30,036]

Whatever it was, it made for some tedious waiting to get out of the carpark.

Surely the crowd was well over estimations: the place was packed!

Speaking at the club's family day today, Jim Stynes said there were 8,000 at Casey yesterday.

When the players were introduced to those in attendance, you got to see and feel how many walking wounded we have on our books ATM. I had noticed James Frawley's absence in the latter part of the game yesterday. Today, I saw the reason. He was limping noticeably and had his right calf bandaged. At a guess, I'd say it's not all that serious but I never went to medical school. Liam Jurrah and Daniel Bell had their arms in a brace and Cale Morton was getting around on crutches. Naturally, Colin Sylvia wasn't there and nor was Aussie. Most of the players who were rested yesterday e.g Bartram, Grimes, Rivers and Joel Macdonald all looked as if they would make it to round 1. I think Col Garland would have to play a full game for Casey to get a gig. That gives us up to 5 players to come in for the Hawthorn game and 8 plus Colin Sylvia to go out. At least that gives us many more possibilities for the season opener and less reason for doom and gloom than what we're seeing from some quarters.

And on the Casey game, don't get carried away with Jack Fitzpatrick's two goals. The first was a gimme when it was delivered to him while alone in the goalsquare, the second came after a strong mark and a 50 metre penalty. He worked hard, has good pace but needs to put on bulk and is a long way from playing AFL. On the other hand, Jordan Gysberts played a terrific game and shouldn't be too far away. Garland played well down back and I hope he pulled up well and plays a full game next week. As I said earlier, he's an outside chance for round 1 but he will be an aquisition when he finally gets back in the side because he's a class player.

[Disco Demons 92]

thanks for the report guys,,,good to see some positives

[Whispering_Jack 30,036]

I also wanted to comment on the one step forward, two steps back theme. I believe this is just one of the things that happens when you're dealing with young teams. There will be inconsistencies from week to week and from player to player. I'm sure we will win games this year and next that are beyond our wildest expectations today and we will have some tough days at the office as well. I haven't written us off for the opening game against Hawthorn either - we just need the stars to align and no more injuries ... please!

[rusty_kingswood 0]

I would prefer I garland played a couple of weeks out at casey, instead of rushing him back for a chance of a sneaky win for R1.

I have had quite enough of these injuries!

[demonglory 70]

I also wanted to comment on the one step forward, two steps back theme. I believe this is just one of the things that happens when you're dealing with young teams. There will be inconsistencies from week to week and from player to player. I'm sure we will win games this year and next that are beyond our wildest expectations today and we will have some tough days at the office as well. I haven't written us off for the opening game against Hawthorn either - we just need the stars to align and no more injuries ... please!

Whispering Jack I agree with your sentiment in terms of what happens with young teams

Look at the amount of games half our team has played and it makes you see just how many inexperienced players we fielded against West Coast and most likely throughout this year as well

Scully - no AFL games

Strauss - no AFL Games

Trengove - no AFL games

Hughes - rookie - no AFL games

Bail - barely 1 game

McKenzie - rookie - 3 AFL games

McNamara - 3 AFL games

Spencer - 6 games

Maric - 11 games

Cheney - 12 games

Bennell - 16 games

Martin - 27 games

Petterd - 29 games

Warnock - 38 games- less than 2 yrs of senior experience

Frawley - 40 games

Dunn 52 games

Jones - 70 games

Jamar - 73 games

Moloney - 90 games

Miller - 127 games

Green - 198 games

McDonald - 235 games

Sylvia - out in the first quarter - was good up to that point

Bate - 1st game since Christmas

Bruce - 1st game back since Xmas

Davey - still has abductor soreness

[jnrmac 20,060]

Jones - hardly noticed him, but that's not to say he wasn't any good.

Jones was one of our best 4 quarter players. He's not that hard to notice with his new tat

[DirtyDees DDC 176]

STEPPING BACK by The Oracle

As the game progressed, the Melbourne game became excruciatingly more difficult to watch as the ball was often handballed at the feet of stationary players or kicked wide of teammates who were thereby constantly put under pressure. They would do well to take a look at the tape of last night's NAB Cup Grand Final to see how the Western Bulldogs dispose of the ball by hand and by foot.

Totally agree with the poor handball. We didn't seem to have enough options when we had the ball, and we didn't hit them when we tried. Too many times we stuffed up the first couples of handpasses out of the pack. At other times we would string 8 or 9 handpasses together to free up a player (similar to Geelong). This should improve as the players get to know each other, but i hope the club has a major focus on handballing under pressure in the next 2 weeks.

A couple of other observations:

It took us 1 hour to get from cheltenham to the ground. Big traffic jams outside the ground. That road needs to be 2 lanes each way near the entrance.

The crowd was very quiet. not much noise apart from the section in the stand.

Why were Spencer and Martin in the ruck at the same time in the second half?

[Ungarie boy 233]

Thought I would point out some reasons for our seemingly extended period at the bottom of the table:

First and probably most paramount is that we are now really feeling the pinch of the draft penalties. The result being we don't have the necessary quality core experience (28-32) around to support, guide, develop and assist the plethora of young players we have. Most sides that have had any success at "bottoming out" have had quality experience i.e Harvey, Crawford,

Another very large contributing factor was that Neil Daniher over achived with the list he had (only 1 champion player in Neitz) and a lot of good to average players - making the finals consistently (at least by victorian standards). This meant that when the required rebuild of team took place their was no quality experience around to help. I don't recall to many all australians in these years (particularily multiple all-australians).

It should also be noted that the successful teams have also traded well, it is nearly impossible to draft a premiership team. Think Ottens for Geelong; Hall, Jolly, Bolton for Sydney, Croad, Dew for Hawthorn; Port brought in defenders such as Bishop, Hardwick; West Coast had Stenglien and Chick. Even St Kilda brought in Gerhig and Powel for the first tilt and now have numerous players origanally from other clubs for their second tilt. Bulldogs - Hall. These trades served two purposes to a) address a shortcoming in structure and/or B) to bring in experience and muscle for the development of youth.

I also don't believe any team has truly won a premiership through the "bottoming out" method first that was first instigated by St Kilda. Hawthorn's premiership was more a result of ruthless trading and clever drafting (Croad, McPharlin, Chick, Hay, Thompson). Their bottom out period (Thorp, Dowler, etc) is really yet to take shape. Geelong didn't truly bottom out, as per the St Kilda model (can't think of any number 1 draft picks for Geelong).

Luck: the one year we were in a position to take advantage of the draft whilst our list was still in reasonable shape (so as to quickly build a premiersip side); was just a very very weak draft year. Not to many success stories in the 2003 draft.

Unfortunately the delisting/retirement of experince players such as Robertson, White, Whelan, etc has exasperated the short term pain. Of course the upside, is the long term gain from extra youth developing; which may result in an extended long term period of success.

As for the forward line and ruck problems - Sydney has shown they can be traded in when needed. Also Geelong, West Coast, Port and to a lesser extent Sydney and Brisbane have all shown that you need only 1 quality foward to win a premiership and some may argue the word quality.

This year our side is just to young!!!!!

Edited March 15, 2010 by Ungarie boy

[Felix 92]

nice post

[H_T 3,043]

Look at the amount of games half our team has played and it makes you see just how many inexperienced players we fielded against West Coast and most likely throughout this year as well

Scully - no AFL games

Strauss - no AFL Games

Trengove - no AFL games

Hughes - rookie - no AFL games

Bail - barely 1 game

McKenzie - rookie - 3 AFL games

McNamara - 3 AFL games

Spencer - 6 games

Maric - 11 games

Cheney - 12 games

Bennell - 16 games

Martin - 27 games

Petterd - 29 games

Warnock - 38 games- less than 2 yrs of senior experience

Frawley - 40 games

Dunn 52 games

Jones - 70 games

Jamar - 73 games

Moloney - 90 games

Miller - 127 games

Green - 198 games

McDonald - 235 games

Sylvia - out in the first quarter - was good up to that point

Bate - 1st game since Christmas

Bruce - 1st game back since Xmas

Davey - still has abductor soreness

Think it was McDonald's first game too wasn't it ?

Alot of supporters - no matter how frustrated - overlook this.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

Thought I would point out some reasons for our seemingly extended period at the bottom of the table:

First and probably most paramount is that we are now really feeling the pinch of the draft penalties. The result being we don't have the necessary quality core experience (28-32) around to support, guide, develop and assist the plethora of young players we have. Most sides that have had any success at "bottoming out" have had quality experience i.e Harvey, Crawford,

Another very large contributing factor was that Neil Daniher over achived with the list he had (only 1 champion player in Neitz) and a lot of good to average players - making the finals consistently (at least by victorian standards). This meant that when the required rebuild of team took place their was no quality experience around to help. I don't recall to many all australians in these years (particularily multiple all-australians).

It should also be noted that the successful teams have also traded well, it is nearly impossible to draft a premiership team. Think Ottens for Geelong; Hall, Jolly, Bolton for Sydney, Croad, Dew for Hawthorn; Port brought in defenders such as Bishop, Hardwick; West Coast had Stenglien and Chick. Even St Kilda brought in Gerhig and Powel for the first tilt and now have numerous players origanally from other clubs for their second tilt. Bulldogs - Hall. These trades served two purposes to a) address a shortcoming in structure and/or B) to bring in experience and muscle for the development of youth.

I also don't believe any team has truly won a premiership through the "bottoming out" method first that was first instigated by St Kilda. Hawthorn's premiership was more a result of ruthless trading and clever drafting (Croad, McPharlin, Chick, Hay, Thompson). Their bottom out period (Thorp, Dowler, etc) is really yet to take shape. Geelong didn't truly bottom out, as per the St Kilda model (can't think of any number 1 draft picks for Geelong).

Luck: the one year we were in a position to take advantage of the draft whilst our list was still in reasonable shape (so as to quickly build a premiersip side); was just a very very weak draft year. Not to many success stories in the 2003 draft.

Unfortunately the delisting/retirement of experince players such as Robertson, White, Whelan, etc has exasperated the short term pain. Of course the upside, is the long term gain from extra youth developing; which may result in an extended long term period of success.

As for the forward line and ruck problems - Sydney has shown they can be traded in when needed. Also Geelong, West Coast, Port and to a lesser extent Sydney and Brisbane have all shown that you need only 1 quality foward to win a premiership and some may argue the word quality.

This year our side is just to young!!!!!

a few of your points are totaly wroung,yze was a campion, jeff white a AA yze a all austrailan,jeff framer was at our club during those years,thats three AA player just there, and buddy and roughhead are from the bottom period at hawthron, you only make the points you want to point out and leave out all of the positive, in your points, trading for ready made player will happen from next year.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

Think it was McDonald's first game too wasn't it ?

Alot of supporters - no matter how frustrated - overlook this.

I saw him V's Freo and he played well against Adelaide last week. He only missed the Essendon game in week 2.

[2014-Flag 0]

Speaking at the club's family day today, Jim Stynes said there were 8,000 at Casey yesterday.

When the players were introduced to those in attendance, you got to see and feel how many walking wounded we have on our books ATM. I had noticed James Frawley's absence in the latter part of the game yesterday. Today, I saw the reason. He was limping noticeably and had his right calf bandaged. At a guess, I'd say it's not all that serious but I never went to medical school. Liam Jurrah and Daniel Bell had their arms in a brace and Cale Morton was getting around on crutches. Naturally, Colin Sylvia wasn't there and nor was Aussie. Most of the players who were rested yesterday e.g Bartram, Grimes, Rivers and Joel Macdonald all looked as if they would make it to round 1. I think Col Garland would have to play a full game for Casey to get a gig. That gives us up to 5 players to come in for the Hawthorn game and 8 plus Colin Sylvia to go out. At least that gives us many more possibilities for the season opener and less reason for doom and gloom than what we're seeing from some quarters.

And on the Casey game, don't get carried away with Jack Fitzpatrick's two goals. The first was a gimme when it was delivered to him while alone in the goalsquare, the second came after a strong mark and a 50 metre penalty. He worked hard, has good pace but needs to put on bulk and is a long way from playing AFL. On the other hand, Jordan Gysberts played a terrific game and shouldn't be too far away. Garland played well down back and I hope he pulled up well and plays a full game next week. As I said earlier, he's an outside chance for round 1 but he will be an aquisition when he finally gets back in the side because he's a class player.

I think givenour forward woes, if garland is even half ready, and plays a full game at Casey next Saturday, he should play round 1, and play forward, I would suggest in the pocket next to the resting Russian, or at full forward. His marking and agility is I think just what we need down there

Edited March 15, 2010 by 2014-Flag

[e25 5]

I think givenour forward woes, if garland is even half ready, and plays a full game at Casey next Saturday, he should play round 1, and play forward, I would suggest in the pocket next to the resting Russian, or at full forward. His marking and agility is I think just what we need down there

I think what we definitely don't need is to unnecessarily risk a player coming back from a long injury lay-off for the slim chance of a few early season wins in 2010.

Forward woes or not, we should not be risking underdone players.

My focus is still firmly on 2012 onwards. I'm not trying to cap what the boys can achieve, but I'm trying to be pragmatic.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Enforcer25

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We are really at the bottom of the barrell and need to be open and honest as state it as it is.

No kidding??? The Club knows where the side is at and what is required to turn things around. Its a pity that supporters dont realise it.

I think givenour forward woes, if garland is even half ready, and plays a full game at Casey next Saturday, he should play round 1, and play forward, I would suggest in the pocket next to the resting Russian, or at full forward. His marking and agility is I think just what we need down there

Good idea. Lets throw caution to the wind and put a players rehabilitation from a nasty injury at risk.

a few of your points are totaly wroung,yze was a campion, jeff white a AA yze a all austrailan,jeff framer was at our club during those years,thats three AA player just there, and buddy and roughhead are from the bottom period at hawthron, you only make the points you want to point out and leave out all of the positive, in your points, trading for ready made player will happen from next year.

None of White nor Yze or Farmer was consistent enough over their careers to be classed as champions. Each had their good years but were not at the level that would have taken us the next step passed making up numbers in the 8.

[Ungarie boy 233]

a few of your points are totaly wroung,yze was a campion, jeff white a AA yze a all austrailan,jeff framer was at our club during those years,thats three AA player just there, and buddy and roughhead are from the bottom period at hawthron, you only make the points you want to point out and leave out all of the positive, in your points, trading for ready made player will happen from next year.

Not sure if you could class Yze a champion, but yes a very, very good player over a few years; although Jeff White could be classed as a champion. Farmer left without adequate compensation, as he was reaching his peak.

Still you are reinforcing the point why we are experiencing an extended period at the bottom, compared to other clubs; as we don't have any of these "champion" players to develop and build our young team around.

Buddy and Roughead may have been from Hawthorns first year of bottoming out, but the bulk of the premiership team came from drafts before their bottoming out. Their Bottom out period brought players such as Thorp, Muston, Dowler, Ellis, Birchall, tuck, whitecross, Bailey, Murphy, Renouf, Morton, that skinny red head backman; and of course Franklin, Lewis & Roughhead. Note: haven't had time to reasearch this, it is based on conversations with a fanatical Hawks supporter - who like most of us, openly believes they stole a premiership. Of course this is where luck comes in: the draft with Franklin, Lewis & Roughhead was a beauty - note it also helps having Richmond heavily involved early!!!!!!