Carlton 2007

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

I know this topic has been talked about on many threads. However, I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefited.

The years before:

2005 - Wooden Spoon

2006 - Wooden Spoon

2007

Premiers - NAB Cup

After round 11 Carlton had a record of 4 wins - 7 losses after back to back wins over the Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide.

Round 16 v Brisbane Lions: Carlton loss by 117 points, Pagan Sacked. Ratten replaces as tempory coach.

Round 22 v Melbourne: A pathetic Melbourne wins its 5th game by beating Carlton by 31 points, in so losing its priority pick. Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

Ratten coaches out the season without a win, losing the last 6 games with an average losing margin of 30 points.

Despite coaching to 0-6, the Blues can't get enough of their new coach and on the 20th August 2007 sign Ratten to a two year contact (very suspect).

Carlton receive pick 1 and 2 in the draft after winning 4 games. Melbourne receives pick 4 after winning 5 games the 5th being Carlton in round 22. Carlton takes Cruzer with pick 1, and use pick 2 in part of a trade for Chris Judd. End result is Carlton pick up the undisputed best player in the competition and the best school aged player in the country.

Melbourne must learn from Carton of 07. With compromised drafts for 5 years this is Melbourne’s chance to take the best two young players in the country, stop other teams getting these players, add to the list with number one pick in PSD and complete phase 2 (list build) of the grand plan.

The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions).

Conclusion: The MFC has a once in a life time opportunity. Adding pick 1 & 2 plus say 19 or 20th pick to an already impressive young list will give us the best chance of breaking our the premiership drought.

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games. We have a great young list and even the mandatory 3 delistings at the end of the season will be difficult let along the likely 6. Young players with potential will have to be cut. Best we give them all a run and make sure we are delisting the right players. We have a great opportunity to play all ready young players, try them in new positions and really give everyone on our list the chance to show us they have the potential to be a premiership player.

Life is too short, the precedent has been set. The draft rules must be changed but while they are what they are we must take advantage of them. Some may look down on this, but Premierships don't just happen. Hawthorn played out 2004 trying out their entire list and they were rewarded with Roughead, Franklin and a premiership. Carlton played out 2007 trying their entire list and they were rewarded with Judd, Cruzer and a soon to be opened premiership window. Melbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

I know this topic has been talked about on many threads. However, I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefited.

The years before:

2005 - Wooden Spoon

2006 - Wooden Spoon

2007

Premiers - NAB Cup

After round 11 Carlton had a record of 4 wins - 7 losses after back to back wins over the Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide.

Round 16 v Brisbane Lions: Carlton loss by 117 points, Pagan Sacked. Ratten replaces as tempory coach.

Round 22 v Melbourne: A pathetic Melbourne wins its 5th game by beating Carlton by 31 points, in so losing its priority pick. Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

Ratten coaches out the season without a win, losing the last 6 games with an average losing margin of 30 points.

Despite coaching to 0-6, the Blues can't get enough of their new coach and on the 20th August 2007 sign Ratten to a two year contact (very suspect).

Carlton receive pick 1 and 2 in the draft after winning 4 games. Melbourne receives pick 4 after winning 5 games the 5th being Carlton in round 22. Carlton takes Cruzer with pick 1, and use pick 2 in part of a trade for Chris Judd. End result is Carlton pick up the undisputed best player in the competition and the best school aged player in the country.

Melbourne must learn from Carton of 07. With compromised drafts for 5 years this is Melbourne’s chance to take the best two young players in the country, stop other teams getting these players, add to the list with number one pick in PSD and complete phase 2 (list build) of the grand plan.

The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions).

Conclusion: The MFC has a once in a life time opportunity. Adding pick 1 & 2 plus say 19 or 20th pick to an already impressive young list will give us the best chance of breaking our the premiership drought.

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games. We have a great young list and even the mandatory 3 delistings at the end of the season will be difficult let along the likely 6. Young players with potential will have to be cut. Best we give them all a run and make sure we are delisting the right players. We have a great opportunity to play all ready young players, try them in new positions and really give everyone on our list the chance to show us they have the potential to be a premiership player.

Life is too short, the precedent has been set. The draft rules must be changed but while they are what they are we must take advantage of them. Some may look down on this, but Premierships don't just happen. Hawthorn played out 2004 trying out their entire list and they were rewarded with Roughead, Franklin and a premiership. Carlton played out 2007 trying their entire list and they were rewarded with Judd, Cruzer and a soon to be opened premiership window. Melbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart.

Yes you are correct, but are you prepared to email this note to Jimmy Stynes? & how do you orchestrate this plan with still 14 weeks of the season to go.

Tea Breaks in the centre square during a Quarter maybe?

It's a lovely idea but it can only be implemented in late july/august.

[Jarka 767]

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games.

You know what? This is such a hoodoo, there's cries of anguish whenever this is even mentioned but I'm more than happy to say. We should actively try to aim to end up with a pp this year, and if that means aiming to not win certain games then that's what we should do.

GNF is absolutely right.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,799]

" I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefitedMelbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart."

What an eloquent and accurate post!!! Well said!!!

That being said, I think it's time we Melbourne supporters kept it under our hat that we don't want to win games. The more supporters who openly discuss the desirability of playing for the draft picks, the more likely the media will start to accuse us of lying down.(though they were amazingly accepting of Carlton's tactics in 2007). They were brilliant the way they let TJ, such a damaging player, run riot in rnd 22 2007. That's the sort of "invisible" tactic we need to use.

And I agree with GNF, we must play the youngsters to see who's worth keeping.

Also we have a golden opportunity to try risky , radical new tactics Any that work should be kept in the "bottom drawer" for 2010. Unsuccessful tactics will help our cause.

Getting 8 or 10 games of experience into an 18 or 19 yr old makes an enormous difference to their prospects in 2010.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

You know what? This is such a hoodoo, there's cries of anguish whenever this is even mentioned but I'm more than happy to say. We should actively try to aim to end up with a pp this year, and if that means aiming to not win certain games then that's what we should do.

I wonder if you're one of the many who referred to Carlton after that infamous match as 'Carltank' (people here still do).

A lot of people on this site would be considered hypocrites to suggest now that tanking is in our best interest when we savaged Carlton over supposedly throwing that game.

[H_T 3,047]

Yes you are correct, but are you prepared to email this note to Jimmy Stynes? & how do you orchestrate this plan with still 14 weeks of the season to go.

Tea Breaks in the centre square during a Quarter maybe?

It's a lovely idea but it can only be implemented in late july/august.

Why not look at this at the mid-season break split round?

Why does it have to be 'only' during july/august?

I agree with GNF.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

" I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefitedMelbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart."

What an eloquent and accurate post!!! Well said!!!

That being said, I think it's time we Melbourne supporters kept it under our hat that we don't want to win games. The more supporters who openly discuss the desirability of playing for the draft picks, the more likely the media will start to accuse us of lying down.(though they were amazingly accepting of Carlton's tactics in 2007). They were brilliant the way they let TJ, such a damaging player, run riot in rnd 22 2007. That's the sort of "invisible" tactic we need to use.

And I agree with GNF, we must play the youngsters to see who's worth keeping.

Also we have a golden opportunity to try risky , radical new tactics Any that work should be kept in the "bottom drawer" for 2010. Unsuccessful tactics will help our cause.

Getting 8 or 10 games of experience into an 18 or 19 yr old makes an enormous difference to their prospects in 2010.

If the Coaching Staff can Pull it off without the players losing their competitive edge i am all for it, I don't know how you tell payers to stay hungry for the contest when the plan is not to win. But the lure of the "Pot of Gold" draft picks at seasons end is certainly a major incentive.

Who cares what the Media says, I don't & neither do they. The AFL made these Rules, we are merely playing them.

(For the Record) I think the team is playing for draft picks now..Against West Coke during the last 5-6 minutes Davey & Nate Jones resting on the Bench...

[ucanchoose 1,816]

Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

So many people wanted us to lose that game. But if we lost this game we wouldn't have one CALE MORTON. I'll take that over two other draft picks thankyou very much

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Why not look at this at the mid-season break split round?

Why does it have to be 'only' during july/august?

I agree with GNF.

I just wonder how it impacts on the players actually out there during a game. Its far easier to get badly injured if you are not totally switched on.

I agree with the post i am just not sure whether it can be implemented for real.

On Paper it is SPOT ON

I have always remembered Carlton beating Port in Round 11 then not winning again. Demetriou wouldn't believe it.

[Guest sticksmorton]

Wait a second, does anyone here believe that we are capable of gaining priority picks without trying to deliberately lose?

We have a tough draw and its likely that we will not win more another 3 games anyway.

Remember that we are an inform team at the moment but we just can't win

I've narrowed it down to seven "danger games" of us actually winning, the rest we can't

they are

collingwood round 11

essendon round 12

west coast round 14

port adel round 15

richmond round 18

north melb round 19

fremantle round 20

and remember out of these we are still allowed to win three of them (assuming we want the picks), other than those games we are not up to winning

against

hawthorn round 9

saints round 10

bris round 13

geel round 16

syd round 17

carlton round 21

saints round 22

[pringle 42]

Im not so sure we really have to try to pull this thing off. Look at it this way. In the next 5 rounds I can't see us winning any games (at best maybe QB, but even that is highly unlikely).

HAWTHORN - MCG

ST KILDA - GC

COLLINGWOOD - MCG

ESSENDON - Etihad

BRISBANE LIONS - Gabba

Let's just say worst case scenarion we actually win one of these, we can then afford nly 2 more wins for the rest of the season. The draw for the rest of the season looks like this:

WEST COAST EAGLES - MCG (chance)

PORT ADELAIDE - MCG (chance but highly unlikely)

GEELONG CATS - Skilled Stadium (pencil in a loss)

SYDNEY SWANS - Manuka (as above)

RICHMOND - MCG (chance but unlikely a 2nd time this year)

NORTH MELBOURNE - Etihad (should have no trouble losing this one)

FREMANTLE - MCG (chance, but "list management" period with plenty of players off for early operations)

CARLTON - Etihad (No chance)

ST KILDA - MCG (Won't beat the eventual GF runner-up)

That's 4 games in which I think we have even a remote chance. Of course we won't winn all of those, and with our inexperience, we could at best hoope to win half the winnable ones. So that should still leave us with 4 wins at best without even having to try very hard to lose.

[DangerousDemon 3]

I know this topic has been talked about on many threads. However, I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefited.

The years before:

2005 - Wooden Spoon

2006 - Wooden Spoon

2007

Premiers - NAB Cup

After round 11 Carlton had a record of 4 wins - 7 losses after back to back wins over the Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide.

Round 16 v Brisbane Lions: Carlton loss by 117 points, Pagan Sacked. Ratten replaces as tempory coach.

Round 22 v Melbourne: A pathetic Melbourne wins its 5th game by beating Carlton by 31 points, in so losing its priority pick. Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

Ratten coaches out the season without a win, losing the last 6 games with an average losing margin of 30 points.

Despite coaching to 0-6, the Blues can't get enough of their new coach and on the 20th August 2007 sign Ratten to a two year contact (very suspect).

Carlton receive pick 1 and 2 in the draft after winning 4 games. Melbourne receives pick 4 after winning 5 games the 5th being Carlton in round 22. Carlton takes Cruzer with pick 1, and use pick 2 in part of a trade for Chris Judd. End result is Carlton pick up the undisputed best player in the competition and the best school aged player in the country.

Melbourne must learn from Carton of 07. With compromised drafts for 5 years this is Melbourne’s chance to take the best two young players in the country, stop other teams getting these players, add to the list with number one pick in PSD and complete phase 2 (list build) of the grand plan.

The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions).

Conclusion: The MFC has a once in a life time opportunity. Adding pick 1 & 2 plus say 19 or 20th pick to an already impressive young list will give us the best chance of breaking our the premiership drought.

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games. We have a great young list and even the mandatory 3 delistings at the end of the season will be difficult let along the likely 6. Young players with potential will have to be cut. Best we give them all a run and make sure we are delisting the right players. We have a great opportunity to play all ready young players, try them in new positions and really give everyone on our list the chance to show us they have the potential to be a premiership player.

Life is too short, the precedent has been set. The draft rules must be changed but while they are what they are we must take advantage of them. Some may look down on this, but Premierships don't just happen. Hawthorn played out 2004 trying out their entire list and they were rewarded with Roughead, Franklin and a premiership. Carlton played out 2007 trying their entire list and they were rewarded with Judd, Cruzer and a soon to be opened premiership window. Melbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart.

Exactly right mate well said however there will be skeptics and pessimists (see above) who would argue that it indeed harms the image of our club by stooping to Carlton's level. However if everyone over the past 10 years had done it why should the mighty Demons not.

[Trisul 664]

... The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions) ...

Good post GNF. Not sure on the quoted, esp bolded, section though.

Up until 2011 season, GC has access to (hope I've summarised accurately):

up to 12 x 17 year-olds

first 5 x 2009 rookies

first 1 x 2010 rookie (alternating with bris for QLD priorites thereafter, how many?)

9 x 2010 first round picks (inc picks 1,2,3)

3 x 2010 first pick per round (excluding 1st round)

10 x post 2010 previously draft nominated or listed players

16 x post 2010 season uncontracted

3 x NT zone players (2010)

5 x QLD zone players (also in 2011 & 2012)

So GC have the opportunity to take 64+ players. They are allowed (in 2011) to have a 48 player list.

They also have TAC listed players, not sure how they're treated (add 30 odd = 94+ to cut to 48?).

Obviously they won't use every pick, even then though they should be trading them (the ones they can).

26 are post 2010 though - but that means space must be freed if utilised.

I reckon the meat market will be in full swing. Really depends though on how clubs align with, or to, GCs interests.

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

Exactly right mate well said however there will be skeptics and pessimists (see above) who would argue that it indeed harms the image of our club by stooping to Carlton's level. However if everyone over the past 10 years had done it why should the mighty Demons not.

When Hawthorn won the premiership last year, were you thinking "those cheats"? Did this even cross your mind? I suggest the answer is no.

In fact praise was given by all for excellent list management and coaching. The fact that they seemed to be playing for draft picks in 2004........ or I meant to say managing and playing their list did not get a mention.

If Carlton win a premiership in the next 5 years as I expect they will, let me assure you that people will not be talking about Carltank. Their 2007 questionable list management will have been forgotten about.

If Melbourne manages their list well in 2009 and receives picks 1 and 2 in the last uncompromised draft for 5 years and then goes on and wins a Premiership in coming years, I assure you the media and public will only have praise for Stynes, Bailey and the entire management of the club.

[H_T 3,047]

Im not so sure we really have to try to pull this thing off. Look at it this way. In the next 5 rounds I can't see us winning any games (at best maybe QB, but even that is highly unlikely).

HAWTHORN - MCG

ST KILDA - GC

COLLINGWOOD - MCG

ESSENDON - Etihad

BRISBANE LIONS - Gabba

Let's just say worst case scenarion we actually win one of these, we can then afford nly 2 more wins for the rest of the season. The draw for the rest of the season looks like this:

WEST COAST EAGLES - MCG (chance)

PORT ADELAIDE - MCG (chance but highly unlikely)

GEELONG CATS - Skilled Stadium (pencil in a loss)

SYDNEY SWANS - Manuka (as above)

RICHMOND - MCG (chance but unlikely a 2nd time this year)

NORTH MELBOURNE - Etihad (should have no trouble losing this one)

FREMANTLE - MCG (chance, but "list management" period with plenty of players off for early operations)

CARLTON - Etihad (No chance)

ST KILDA - MCG (Won't beat the eventual GF runner-up)

That's 4 games in which I think we have even a remote chance. Of course we won't winn all of those, and with our inexperience, we could at best hoope to win half the winnable ones. So that should still leave us with 4 wins at best without even having to try very hard to lose.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

If Carlton win a premiership in the next 5 years as I expect they will, let me assure you that people will not be talking about Carltank. Their 2007 questionable list management will have been forgotten about.

I was not aware that Hawthorn had any of the elite players on the Visy payroll.

Their questionable list management extends through a number of years not just 2007. How they managed to fit Warnock at $400k a year and make a pitch for Ryan O'Keeffe last year beggars belief.

[Jarka 767]

I wonder if you're one of the many who referred to Carlton after that infamous match as 'Carltank' (people here still do).

A lot of people on this site would be considered hypocrites to suggest now that tanking is in our best interest when we savaged Carlton over supposedly throwing that game.

You wonder wrong, I was of the opinion back then that we needed to qualify for a pp pick because I believed that our list needed to be rebuilt. My posts back then will support this.

Another important question is to all the poeple who wanted us to win that game, what impact did that single victory make to our development and culture of winning?

[1858 285]

Im not so sure we really have to try to pull this thing off. Look at it this way. In the next 5 rounds I can't see us winning any games (at best maybe QB, but even that is highly unlikely).

HAWTHORN - MCG

ST KILDA - GC

COLLINGWOOD - MCG

ESSENDON - Etihad

BRISBANE LIONS - Gabba

Agree here ^^^^, 1 win at the most is possible.

______________________________________

But...

Let's just say worst case scenarion we actually win one of these, we can then afford nly 2 more wins for the rest of the season. The draw for the rest of the season looks like this:

The others are questionable though...

WEST COAST EAGLES - MCG (chance) Given how we went in Perth againt them this is almost a lock in win.

PORT ADELAIDE - MCG (chance but highly unlikely)Not highly unlikely at all - they have beaten us only once in Melbourne (by 5 points) in 2007.

GEELONG CATS - Skilled Stadium (pencil in a loss)Agree

SYDNEY SWANS - Manuka (as above)If Sydney have a full team then sure they are obvious favourites but I wouldn't pencil this one in yet.

RICHMOND - MCG (chance but unlikely a 2nd time this year)I don't understand your logic, we will probably be better odds to beat them compared to last time.

NORTH MELBOURNE - Etihad (should have no trouble losing this one)Agree, we won't win this.

FREMANTLE - MCG (chance, but "list management" period with plenty of players off for early operations)What's to say Freo won't be doing the same "list management" at that time of year? - big chance IMO.

CARLTON - Etihad (No chance)Agree

ST KILDA - MCG (Won't beat the eventual GF runner-up)Agree

That's 4 games in which I think we have even a remote chance. Of course we won't winn all of those, and with our inexperience, we could at best hoope to win half the winnable ones. So that should still leave us with 4 wins at best without even having to try very hard to lose. I can't agree, for those of you who hope we win 4 games or less then hold on to your seat, it will be touch and go.

[pitmaster 3,560]

When Hawthorn won the premiership last year, were you thinking "those cheats"? Did this even cross your mind? I suggest the answer is no.

In fact praise was given by all for excellent list management and coaching. The fact that they seemed to be playing for draft picks in 2004........ or I meant to say managing and playing their list did not get a mention.

Hawthron traded for picks rather than tanked - they offloaded KPPs who were not going to be part of their next premiership - like Hay and Thompson.

They were brave in doing so and a class apart from Carlton.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

IMO, these are the games we are a chance in:

HAWTHORN - MCG - No

ST KILDA - GC - No

COLLINGWOOD - MCG - Yes, based on previous years' efforts and Collingwood's crapness in 2009

ESSENDON - Etihad - No, we suck at ES and Essendon is well in front of us this year

BRISBANE LIONS - Gabba - No

WEST COAST EAGLES - MCG - Yes

PORT ADELAIDE - MCG - Yes, PA's only win against us here was by 5 points in a year when they made the GF and we came 14th.

GEELONG CATS - Skilled Stadium - No

SYDNEY SWANS - Manuka - No, we travel poorly

RICHMOND - MCG - Yes

NORTH MELBOURNE - Etihad - Yes, but we do suck a lot at ES

FREMANTLE - MCG - Yes

CARLTON - Etihad - No

ST KILDA - MCG - No

Count those up and I come to the conclusion that we're a chance to win 6 more matches this year. If we win half of those we end up with 4 wins.

[45HG 1,539]

I choose to believe that the Carlton game got us Jack Grimes

[Hobbits's 17]

I choose to believe that the Carlton game got us Jack Grimes

Yes, indirectly.

Cale Morton directly.

[Little Goffy 14,568]

Carlton were 4/7 at the middle of the year then lost 11 games straight, including more than a couple against bottom four teams.

They were talking up 'their' number one pick months ahead of the draft and even ahead of the end of the season.

We are 1/7 after eight rounds in a season with only a couple of teams noticably off the pace. We're playing a host of kids and players who are coming back off in some cases years out of the game, so we are highly likely to simply get worn out. Our draw gets a little easier and we do seem to be improving, but we'd be about 50/50 in anyones best guess to make it to five wins playing and 'list managing' with full competitive effort.

Anyone who accuses us of deliberately tanking will lose all possible respect from me. It's not like we'll get to round 22 and be think 'oh gee, we'd better go soft and make sure we don't beat St. Kilda'.

[w00dy 146]

So many people wanted us to lose that game. But if we lost this game we wouldn't have one CALE MORTON. I'll take that over two other draft picks thankyou very much

We still would've had Cale Morton if we had lost that game...

Rather than the draft order being:

1. Carlton - Kreuzer

2. Richmond - Cotchin

3. Carlton - trade to WC - Masten

4. Melbourne - Morton

It would've been:

1. Carlton - Kreuzer / Trade to WCE for Judd

2. Richmond - Cotchin

3. Melbourne - Morton

A lot of people rated Cale Morton ahead of Masten, and I think we would've taken Morton at 3 anyway. We still would've traded Johnstone for pick 14, to pick up Grimes, along with pick 18 and pick 21. We would've had Maric along with another player like Alex Rance.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We still would've had Cale Morton if we had lost that game...

Rather than the draft order being:

1. Carlton - Kreuzer

2. Richmond - Cotchin

3. Carlton - trade to WC - Masten

4. Melbourne - Morton

It would've been:

1. Carlton - Kreuzer / Trade to WCE for Judd

2. Richmond - Cotchin

3. Melbourne - Morton

A lot of people rated Cale Morton ahead of Masten, and I think we would've taken Morton at 3 anyway. We still would've traded Johnstone for pick 14, to pick up Grimes, along with pick 18 and pick 21. We would've had Maric along with another player like Alex Rance.

Agree Vanlo. I understand that CAC rated Morton ahead of Masten. MFC weree very excited that Morton was still there at four. I am not sure all Clubs had Kruezer No 1 pick that year. Cotchin was rated as good a prospect as Kruezer.

There are two issues here.

1. The game that really stuffed us up in 2007 was beating a listless WBulldogs a couple of weeks before the end of the season.

2. Re R22, after beating Carlton in R 14(?) of that year in a very low standard game we were always odds on to beat them again in R22. This was all the more likely when Carlton took their foot off the gas and judicially used the interchange to bench key players in the rounds and dog the last half of a couple of games leading up to R 22. The failure of Carlton to tag TJ in R22 was unbelievable but not out of the bounds for the way they had handled the season. Even during the game as TJ fired early they took no plausible steps to shut him down.

Carlton know they had Judd for 2008 and they clearly gave Ratten an undertaking that regardless of his poor win/loss ratio that he would get the Carlton job.

MFC weren't helped by advising Riley that his caretaking role performance would come into consideration when choosing for the top job at MFC and he played to win.