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Binman, I'm glad you've raised this as one of the things I would love to see in 2024 is Bowser trialled in the midfield. While I partially agree with others that he doesn't have the size, he's not far off, and it hasn't been an issue in the past - he has always been undersized, and yet starred as a junior as a mid. In the words of Jason Taylor, was drafted as a possible midfielder in the mould of Sam Mitchell. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-16/afl-melbourne-demons-jake-bowey-journey-to-grand-final/100463912 One of the main reasons I want Bowey in the midfield is that he has the type of creative foot skills that we lack, particularly going into the forward 50. There are very few players that have both the IQ to create opportunities + the skills to deliver. Nick Daicos is the one of the best examples of these players - they create for the team mates, as opposed to reacting to their team mates. Travis Johnstone was brilliant at this this, and it is exactly what we need when going inside 50. Bowsers kick to Brayshaw in the third Q of the GF was an example of what i'm talking about. He saw a spot on the ground inside 50 that only Brayshaw could reach, and led Gus to the ball. He did so under immense pressure - and it led to a critical goal. Kozzie is the other player that has similar IQ + Skills that creates with the ball by foot. You couldn't play both in the middle at the same time, but I think adding Bowser to the mix would give us exactly what we need in an era of defensive zones and flooded backlines. Cheers

Ben is not a ruckman, even part time.

October 6th, 2014, Melbourne has a good draft hand thanks to their lowly finish and the departure of James Frawley as a free agent to Hawthorn. Jeff Garlett, Heritier Lumumba and Sam Frost have joined during the trade period and Mitch Clark is traded to Geelong. Dom Barry and Shannon Byrnes retired, and Sam Blease, Mitch Clisby, Michael Evans, Alex Georgiou, Daniel Nicholson, James Strauss and Luke Tapscott were all delisted. The National draft saw Christian Petracca (2, Thankyou St Kilda), Angus Brayshaw (3), Alex Neal-Bullen (40), Billy Stretch (42 father son) and Oscar McDonald (53) added to the list. Neville Jetta was elevated from the Rookie list. The Rookie draft saw Aaron Vandenberg (2) and Mitch White (20) added as rookies. Simon Goodwin joins the Demons in late 2014, serving as an assistant coach under Paul Roos as part of a succession plan to take over as senior coach. Brendan MacCartney Departs the Western Bulldogs and is lured to the Demons. The appointment is seen as one for the long term, with Demons’ coach-in-waiting Simon Goodwin seeing McCartney as the ideal offsider and confidant for his tenure. Disaster in February for Petracca. The 19-year-old's knee buckled after falling awkwardly in a marking contest, forcing him to limp from the track. Scans after the training incident confirmed the terrible news, a rupture of the ACL in his left knee. He was to miss the entire season, returning to training late in the year. Fan favorite Jack Trengove continues to recover from an injury to his navicular which occurred early in the 2014 season which saw him miss almost two years of football and effectively ends his career. Christian Petracca, Angus Brayshaw and Alex Neal-Bullen are now added to the list of only men still standing along with, Jack, T.Mac, the skipper and Salem. The season saw green shoots appear with 7 wins and a rise on the ladder to 13th. Enjoy. 2015 - Foundation ==> https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-MhQnCP/i-VLMSNqD/A 2014 – New Hope ==> https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-MhQnCP/i-TL4vbQq/A 2013 – Annus Horribilis ==> https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-MhQnCP/i-bWkHdxp/A

I remember watching an interstate game on telly during COVID. The commentator quipped that if his run up was any longer he would need to go into quarantine.

Do people even watch football? Ben Brown is not a ruckman. Not in any way, shape or form.

If we get 10 games for the season out of Ben and TMac each we will have done well.

I can see Brown regaining his spot in the team but for how long? He gets himself right but his fitness then gives out. But even so, not as a 2nd ruck anyway In an ideal world one of Brown or T-Mac are available for the seniors (for all the games) but not necessarily to actually play in a first choice option. But Injuries generally happen so they'll probably get their chances. But more so for the just-in-case moments Not sure where Fullarton fits in if we go with JVR as the 2nd ruck. Schache is depth as well Fritsch is the 3rd medium/tall so I'd say we'll go with JVR & Petty with Brown as back up T-Mac is training with the backs so he looks like being back up as well in that area But with the acquisition of Billings, McAdam & Tholstrup, it looks like we've made a concerted effort to have real depth in our forward line (also factoring in Petracca pushing forward as well as Kozzie with the x-factor) And then there's Chandler who should improve on last year As someone else mentioned elsewhere, Neal-Bullen's inside 50 entries are often of good quality so we need to get the ball in his hands. Petracca is another who can be very good with his inside 50 entries HF Petracca/Kozzie JVR ANB F Chandler/McAdam Petty Fritsch

No.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/collingwood-magpies/hasnt-gone-down-well-hidden-issue-in-magpies-training-video-sparks-controversy/news-story/6d2558c331d399203a31258961769eb7?fbclid=IwAR0xFpc4YZ7GYgJTqpMGd1bfuVnKtfMD7GDid1GlaD5AltXWUsYW9K5ZcNo_aem_AVfKNo2ursbmqIShFp4Jr71P6SKOXnhoAPTpz31kSEbuQu05N1OQ98jbQUu85BFhzIU Good to see the Pies being called out for siphoning taxpayer money for women’s sport

As much as we have all loved BBB in the past a degenerative knee has no place in the ruck with so many knee clashes prevalent in the game. I am hoping that he kicks a bag at Casey and is ok if and when we need him. I also expect Fullarton to play regular game time and watching Verrall closely as his backup.

Good point. Ben Brown had five shots on goal that day (three goals, two behinds), so maybe 200 m of his 17.3 km can be attributed to run-ins based on his 30 step routine. This assumes all of his shots were set shots. Run-in’s were not a significant factor for his record - the guy clearly has endurance.

So if you’re a power burst player that can’t run all day long you’re ‘one-paced’? I’ve clearly misunderstood the meaning of one-paced all along.

I feel he’s long been a quality straight line runner but don’t think he has the capacity to be 360 in the guts. He is capable of second efforts but I fear he would get danced all over by anyone with skill and left looking silly. If he’s fit and good to go, play him to his strengths as a hit up leading target. Good bulk, strong hands and a decent read of ball in flight. If he’s on the park and we have players like billings and mcadam looking to hit up targets from 50-70 out, let him do what he does best. Rather not try reinvent a guy who’s doing his best to complete the contract he was deservedly offered.

So we can't avoid pessimism during the season, we can't avoid it in the trade period, now we can't even avoid it in January? Is nowhere safe anymore? [I'm taking the proverbial here a bit] Anyway, to the substance of what you're saying - in the opening paragraph you raise the issues of Oliver missing (he missed 10 games last year when we made top 4), TMac and Brown over the hill (neither was important in 2023 nor, barely, in 2022, both years in which we made the top 4), and May and Gawn are a year older (every single player in every single club just got a year older, including critically important players at other top sides - it's not like reports from training are suggesting these two are struggling). Then you say "no real depth or youth to excite" which is subjective and is really just a reflection of your own pessimism (the OP in this post talks about the excitement of Turner, Howes and Adams, there's been plenty of excitement around Laurie and Woewodin too). As for supposedly "meh" depth, Collingwood won a flag this year with side featuring Frampton, Cox and Cameron. A-graders aren't required on every line. Melksham's injury is a problem for us IMO but it's borderline hypocritical to say "well Laurie and Woey aren't much chop" and then say "we're going to struggle because we don't have Smith". If it weren't for the Oliver/Smith issues I wouldn't look at us and think we're any more likely to slip any more than Collingwood or Brisbane. I think each of us responds to those issues differently or to different extents and largely I think those who are getting really down about our 2024 prospects are those who can't help but interpolate that the Oliver/Smith stuff means broader issues that, quite possibly, just aren't there (and yes, the opposite is also true). The last bit of "don't come for my throat" - why not? You want to lead with your pessimistic chin, be prepared to cop it. Similarly, if you see someone out there going "we're a lock for top 4/the flag", I'm sure you'll be ready to clip them back.

ANB is much maligned and seriously underrated- his turnovers usually occur because of his hard running and don’t occur as much as they used to. His goal smarts are much improved. He will end up with a 200+ game career and is a premiership player. Deserves more respect.

I vote for JVR is the one to watch as forward/ruck. Mobile, good below his knees, good hands, tough, tackles, has some speed - not sure about tank. Impressed with his ability to palm the ball to advantage in his forays into ruck last year. I see some similarities to Luke Jackson, but potentially better in the dual role, particularly up forward. Remember he also played defence in his pre-draft year so could be useful in rucking back half play too. I think BBB stays fwd when JVR rucks for Max, Gawn rests off ground, BB goes to bench when JVR is forward- this will help keep both Max and BBB fresher through the season, and keep JVR more in the game.

If we get 10 games out of each of TMac and Brown our season is dead

Benny started pre-season looking like the competitive tall forward he always was. I note he was not doing the match sim in most recent training runs. Fullarton will definitely feature in forward / ruck plans, and he is very fit and willing. Will Verall is the big improver and may have an impact by mid-year.

If Petracca has 40 bursts with the ball in a grand final, that'll do me!

Our game relies incredibly heavily on a 32 year old ruckman and a 32 year old FB, with no backup even close to their level, that's not ideal. If either go down for an extended period it's over before it begins. We have a coach who's very likely going to roll the same gameplan into the year ahead, that's not as bad as some think but if we don't improve at the margins we're in strife. Those hoping for a Ben Brown or T Mac revival are, in my opinion, delusional, both are cooked and unlikely to play unless injuries have hit hard. Fullarton is a "Break Glass in emergency" and the glass is toughened. McAdam and Billings are only going to be of use if they stay fit and find form, both have serious "if's" about them. Woewodin, Howes and Turner are possible improvers but unlikely to be more than bit players. I like Tom Sparrow and he's a solid player but he's no substitute for a fit, happy and ready to go Clayton Oliver. We've lost Joel Smith and in doing so have one less top 28 player on our list.....yeh not good. There's all this and then there's the swirling soup of gossip and innuendo floating around the team and club. If we are to win the flag this year we'll need everything to go right and hope the likes of Collingwood, Carlton, GWS, Adelaide, Sydney, Brisbane and whoever else gets on a roll don't improve more than us........I'd say fr-ap is being very realistic about our chances.

Anyone thinking BBB can ruck is clearly clueless about AFL. Ben is totally inept as a ruckman - even Mitch Brown was more competent.

That is a guess, not stating stating something as factual, @dazzledavey36 I didn't say ... "Make no mistake, Petracca runs at least 15 k's per game, guaranteed" More to the point was the thrust of my argument that Petracca is much more than a burst player. If he was such a player, he might struggle to get to contests and stoppages. He might also struggle to position himself well around the ground I see a player who does a lot of running and a player who impacts the game with strong bursts. But those bursts are just part of what he brings to the table And my original post was in reply to someone who was stating that Petracca is a burst player only. Which I don't agree with

If his knees stand up DEFINITELY.

But he didn't though.. and not sure where on earth you're pulling numbers randomly that players have exceeding 20kms a game? No one has ever topped covered 20kms a game. On the Petracca one, Langdon, Hunter and Alex Neale Bullen were our top 3 players who racked up top km's for 2023. Langdon was averaging up around the 16km mark and both Hunter and ANB were roughly averaging 15kms per game. As a matter of fact, Petracca did not once finish top 5 in any games last year for kms covered in games.. Even the likes of Petty, Lever and Bowey were all able to finish top 5 in games for most distance covered. Fact was, not once did Petracca ever clock up 14 or 15kms a game at all again last year. My guess is that he roughly averaged around the 10-12 kms covered per game. This may come as a surprise to some of you but he simply isn't an endurance beast as some of you are making out and never was.. You'll never see him up at the top end of the time trails nor will he be pegged in the fitter group of runners. It's his ability to read the game and knowing where to be positioned to win the ball is what makes him the player he is now. His game sense being at the right spot at the right time in big games is all we need and hence why he's makes up for it for his lack of endurance. That's what's so freakish about Petracca is that whilst He'll never clock up big numbers in distance covered, he makes up for it by running to the right spots and positioning well around stoppages. In the AFL environment, if you have an average endurance base then you quickly need to have a second set of tools to have to make up for the perceived "lack of tank" otherwise you're no good to the team unfortunately.

This is honest discussion. I'm neither offended nor uncomfortable. I just disagree with you. My reply to your post was to highlight what I perceive to be your pessimistic outlook on 2024. Yes, pessimistic. I can't stand the "it's not pessimistic, it's realistic" thing which is run a lot on here. It's pessimistic, not realistic, to say things like "Sydney's list is stronger". That's your subjective view, and you're entitled to hold it, and indeed you might be right, but it's not "realism". Ditto your other comparisons above. Again, they may be correct and they're not outlandish views, but putting them together to form your overall argument is pessimistic. That's just your view. Similarly, of course we're better off with Oliver. But his potential absence doesn't sound the death knell in the way you are arguing. And I don't accept that it's "realism" to say May and Gawn are going to be worse this year. Is it possible? Sure. But it's pessimism, not realism, to conclude that they won't be as good this year. Our depth is an interesting point. Yes, we lost a bunch of players who weren't all replaced on the list with similar players. Your argument is that makes us worse off. But like you've argued with TMac and Brown, we had those depth players in 2023 and, guess what, we didn't win the flag. So maybe the change in the list profile through there is a good thing. Neither of these are certainties but the reason for my reply to your post was to say that i don't think the signs all point to us struggling this year to the extent you are arguing.

Well done. Got all the validation by telling people ignorance is bliss. It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. Yes, Oliver missed half the year last year and we managed ok in the middle. This was for a variety of reasons - Viney stepping up, Melksham allowing Trac more time in the middle to name a few. We could very well find solutions again. But unless you really don't rate Oliver or his contribution to the team, his absence is overall a net negative. That's realistic, and any opposition supporter would tell you they'd rather face us without him. You can try to wash away the problem with hopes and dreams of youth filling the gap, but he's a generational player. His output week on week is irreplaceable, individually or in the aggregate. His continued absence makes us a weaker side than last year - and we finished what, 5th? Tmac and Brown were missing for large chunks of last year. Guess what - we didn't win the flag, and a big reason was our inability to find competitive, consistent, stable key forwards to kick goals. These two were a massive part of 21 and we miss them as individuals and a combo, and we haven't addressed the deficiency. Oppo teams know we aren't potent outside of Fritsch. So yes, them being over the hill and showing no signs (yet) of returning to their old selves is a net negative, considering they were both very good players in their prime that we have really struggled to replace. Even one of them getting back would help us immensely. Every player is a year older. Very astute. But an extra year is not the same for all, and you know it. Gawn and May are both probably 2/3 years off retirement, and they will decline at some point. Gawn last year had his worst year statistically for some time. With every year that passes the likelihood of their form declining increases. Net negative vs last year. Realistic. Frampton, Cox and Cameron aren't world beaters, but are established senior depth who have played a lot of footy and are reliable (yes, even Cox). Them being that depth was critical to the Pies flag, whether you realise it or not. Laurie, Woewodin, Turner or Howes can't be considered senior or reliable (yet), even if they do have more upside. They'll improve for sure, they might be solid, they might be great. But right now, they're not. That's realistic. This is the exact point on Smith. No world beater, but reliable senior depth of which we have precious little. He, like Frampton, could play in a flag side and do a job. You know it. We might like to think Turner could do the job, but we don't know yet. Realistic. I am optimistic (yes, really) about our chances to improve. I'm excited by Bowey, JVR, Riv, McVee growing, Trac getting his goal kicking together and putting us on his back, a youngster or 3 injecting themselves into the side. I'm excited for what McAdam can bring together with Pickett, and intrigued by the prospect of Billings rediscovering his once blistering form. I have a lot of faith in our senior players and leaders like ANB, Lever, Trac and Viney. I'm excited to see if Mcqualter has any impact on our style of play. But do I realistically think all these points above will be enough to both offset the inevitable negatives/declines (some of which I covered above, others will be unforeseen), our inarguably thinner senior depth, the improvement of other teams AND bridge the gap from 5th to 1st? On balance, no. Do I think if things go more wrong than right, like a Petracca long term injury for example, that we could fall from 5th to 8th? To 10th? Yeah, probably. Yes, most teams can't handle the loss of their superstar. Difference is we've (seemingly) actually already lost 1, whilst also being drained of senior depth. I could post more about all the things I'm excited about. On this occasion I chose to post about what I'm concerned about. It's not supposed to offend you and if it makes you uncomfortable, that's perhaps telling you're not quite as confident as you might think. It's not pessimistic - just honest discussion. Try it.

That is brilliant Six6six. Love that action photography and as mentioned by Dazzle it really shows the player’s muscular definition and I am even more buoyant about our kids coming through. I also loved the Easy Beats on the sound track they were a favourite of mine back in the early - mid 60’s, they did a stint up in Mildura I think at the Murray Moon dance hall and a bunch of friends and I got to meet them and have a smoke out the front of the hall with them. We were all very young at the time. Great memories.!!

If we are unable to play practice matches there with spectators, I see the Caulfield idea as a bust. Whilst not opposed to keeping the Casey connection, I think we need to have a training facility that is open to the public, and capable of hosting some preseason games. Agree that AFLW should remain at Casey and play some home games at Princes Park. The venue ought to be able to host family days and the like

Our game style has not allowed us to see the best of Ben Brown. As our key target, he has often been left to compete in two-on-one contests in a congested forward line. With Van Rooyen and Petty now the main targets it could free up Brown to play the third tall and support Gawn in the ruck. (At 200cm his height is exactly the same as Fullarton.) While I am excited about Fullarton’s potential, the thought of a fit and unshackled Brown playing this role excites me more. The guy can also run. He holds 15th place in the AFL’s all-time game distance record at 17.3km - only 6 players have ever run further in a game since records began. Against a third tall defender his long leads to the wing and doubling back to the goalsquare could play to his strengths and make him quite formidable. This to me makes more sense than converting Grundy to a forward. Does anyone else agree?

It's quiet simple viney, Anb, Trac, Sparrow can run all day but run at the same pace and as the game goes on, it stays the same, guys like daicos etc can run all day but have an ability to change it up and keep it up even when late in the game there is the difference, we need that type of outside player which would help the midfield immensely.

Yes Petracca was everywhere that day with a stack of inside 50 entries to position as well (11 in fact, Salem & Brayshaw 7 each) An interesting observation of that GF win is how we kicked to a lot of 1 on 1's involving Fritsch. And he won nearly every contest and of course, booted 6 goals Fast forward to now and the opposition teams have flooded our forward line to a point where our inside 50 entries are often directed at packs We have to fix that but that's up to the brains trust. Faster and more direct ball movement for starters

If memory serves me correctly Petracca racked up 10.3k with his first 30 touches in the Granny but I could be wrong. 😁

lol some people need to really chill. Imagine when the real shiit starts

Brown will be on the injury list and playing the odd game for Casey. Petty is so injury prone we can’t rely on him to be tight regularly either. Hopefully Fullarton is good

Relax, only jokes!

A fit BBB will definately be our main forward go to, more so than a lumbering king kong bundy! However as a ruck option? NO

Sadly, I don't hold much hope in seeing him even get a gig up fwd. He was cooked in the 22 finals and was pretty much injured all last season. Even a fit Bbb isn't very good at rucking from what I've seen.

Brilliant series of threads Mr 6's.

According to the AFL, Ben Brown averaged 15.6 kilometres per game in 2019 And in the same year, the Swans ran for a combined 306.3 kilometres in a single game (against the Demons) ... that's an average of 13.9 kilometres per player I'd like to see some actual proof that Petracca runs less than 12k per game

More to the point is do you agree with me that Petracca is not just a burst player? That's what my original post was in reference to And if you read the dozen posts prior to my original post, it might make sense to you By the way, do you still blame the coach when our players miss easy shots at goal? I'm still waiting for your reply on that baffling observation

Well, as far as I'm concerned he does a hell of a lot of running in order to get to any number of contests (and that includes stoppages) His style also includes a number of burst plays but all of Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw & Kozzie can display those traits from stoppages from time to time It's just that what Petracca does stands out which might lead people into thinking that, that's all he does And my original post was in response to one such person who was suggesting that he's only a burst player He's a lot more than that

Well he might have averaged 13.5 k's for all you know. Yours is a guess, not fact So around 13ks - 14ks is still a lot of running. And that would put him into an area that a lot of midfielders would be in

AFL players run 12-14 kilometres per game and some have been known to exceed 20k's Midfielders especially need to get to a stack of contests as well as flooding back and pressing forward. All that 2-way running. Stoppage after stoppage So Petracca being a midfielder would mean he would do a lot of running and in bursts, a lot of sprinting At a guess I reckon he would exceed 15 kilometers per game and that's every week. You've got to be very fit to do all that So imagine being an 18yo coming into the AFL system? It would be quite an eye-opener. It's any wonder we often hear that draftees need 2 or 3 years in the system to be AFL ready As for soft tissue injuries, players need to be managed to the minute to avoid But even so, running 15k's in a full-on contact sport with all the physicality involved is quite a task. Every week So Petracca would need to be as fit as a Mallee bull (and in my view, he is)

The thing I really respect and admire about ANB has been his determination to continually work on and improve his basic football skills. He has always been a great athlete, but his ball handling skills, until this past year in particular, have been, imo, well below the standard required to maintain a permanent position within the team. In his early years he rarely had clean control over the ball - he seemed to almost always fumble. Hence, he became a whipping boy on here. But those days are hopefully fully behind him as he has worked his butt off to improve these skills, as the last half of last year showed. He is not a natural footballer like a McVee, so he has had to work harder than most to reach his current standard. He was never a favourite of mine, but because of the skills improvement he has achieved, ANB is now a Dee's player I admire more than most.

Petracca is incredibly quick for someone his size and weight, definitely not one paced. Amazing blend of strength, power and speed and obviously has a tank to play midfield. What's so unique about the Trac is he able to tap into these abilities pretty consistently throughout a game and would say he does run down opponents a fair bit for his size, don't see this much for comparable players like Martin, Stringer. '21 GF probably best example of the aforementioned.

I guess I have a different opinion. Injury list is good, mainly getting some transfered players into shape. BBB has always had is own program, Hunter is a worry, old man niggles, Fritta is back, as is Petty, and Melky not too far to go I reckon. I think the culture stuff has been blown out of proportion. Oliver only knows footy and being sidelined for 'weeks' last year, hasn't done him any favours. I believe he will play well when he is ready. The opinion of doom just doesn't fit well with me. In my opinion I see us as a dangerous side. Opposition teams will fear us. I was expecting a training dialogue not an opinion piece, though thanks for the reply and am happy to engage.

Go back and watch the last quarter in GF of 2021. Even when we were streeting them, after goals, Nibbles would talk to the players to keep their minds on the game and encourage. Even to Maxie. Do not underrate his leadership and encouragement on the field. The other players listen to him and I would not bbe surprised if Goody uses him in this role.. And his game is, at times, sublime. At the beginning of the last quarter in 2021 Nibble dribbled (deliberately) the ball to Sparrow on the outside who then kicked to BBB near the square. First goal in the last quarter and the doggies were gone.

Petracca “very much one paced”. Have a good weekend demonlanders!

One thing I forgot to mention was the drill/sim after the match sim. It started again and again on the HBF with the exercise to find a way into attack. It is probably much needed with the emphasis on rebound goals, which happen more often than pack marks in the forward line that the fans love so much. Since half the side was trying to attack, the other half was having to defend, and then they changed the roles around. It was interesting how little of the conventional "switching" happened, but that was typical for the top 4 sides last year. The good sides just have it covered so well, and if sides try to do it, they just get locked in with nowhere to go. Anyhow it was a great spectacle, as each exercise produced different results, sometimes back and forward, sometimes through the middle, sometimes lightning fast down the wings, but the common factor was the running required, both to attack and defend. No room for slouches these days.

Right, as of now he doesnt exist and has knee soreness