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In an effort to move past the teeth gnashing and knee jerk reactions to this year's disappointments it's time to acknowledge that the real reason probably started a few days after the loss to WCE in the Preliminary Final last year when something like 17 players were scheduled for end of season operations to fix ankles, shoulders, hips, knees and heavens knows what else. This cruelled our preseason which most recognize is the foundation stone of strong on field performances. Fitness is a non negotiable in footy and we just don't have it. It was reported here that Craig Jennings (I think) said that at one stage in the preseason we had 12 players fit enough to complete the main session indicating that the injuries we had went well beyond those who had operations. Key players effected included:- Our entire starting midfield had interrupted preseasons - Viney, Harmes and Oliver had operations and Jones and Brayshaw had injuries. If my memory is correct none started with the main group until February and some not until March. Three of our best forwards had interrupted preseasons - Tmac had both ankles operated on, Melk had hammy issues and Trac a knee operation Our best defenders had interrupted preseasons - Jetta a knee, May with his issues and Lever recovering from an ACL. From memory Hibberd might also have had a operation. This is a list of the "main crew" who had little or no preseason.. Then there were players like Stretch, Hannan, Oscar Baker and Hore who were also significantly disrupted. Through no fault of anyone, unless you want to suggest we send 13 of our Preliminary Final players off for end of season surgery in August, these players lack fitness because of the lack of a proper preseason. I think this lack of fitness underlies the majority of the issues we have faced this year including:- an inability to run out games inability to play 4 quarters basic skill errors - these occur when plays fatigue a lack of confidence a lack of connection a lack of two way running Compounding this has been a wretched run of injury in season. AVB, Smith, May, Melksham, Hibberd and Jetta have been significant losses. JKH, Stretch, KK and Garlett have added to our issues. On Champion Data stats we lost 89 games to injury to our best 22 in the first 10 games - 50% more than any other team and this on top of a poor preseason. You can carry some injuries but there reaches a stage when you lose so many that the game just falls apart because you're playing too many players who are NQR. We've seen this with Richmond and Collingwood. Is it any surprise that Geelong and Brisbane are doing surprisingly well. They've had no injuries of note. And is it any surprise that Gawn and Salem have performed so well. To my knowledge they had good preseasons. The vitriol directed at players, coaches and fitness staff beg the reality of our situation. Calls to rebuild, change the coach and radically change the game plan ignore core issues that have led to our situation. Posters are far too keen to find blame rather than find reasons. I've never been more confident that we've got the building blocks to be very good. There are some gaps in our list we need to fill and we could well do that in this trade period. This has been a disappointing year but is not reflective of our Club or the players and staff.

What happens when the majority of your best 22 players don't have preseasons? Their skill drop off because you haven't trained them or practised them. When your skills drop off your confidence drops off. Confidence is above the shoulders. Poor preseasons clearly impact confidence, particularly when so many players are impacted. I'd contend that many of our "above the shoulders" stem from a poor preseason. And anyway how can you say all our issues are above the shoulders when you've said losing AVB, Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped? Misson reports to the Board we've had a terrible preseason and we will struggle. He was right.

"Wins are irrelevant. They played in finals". What does that even mean? You argued that we need to rebuild because we're six years into the current rebuild and three years into Goodwin's tenure. I countered by noting that Richmond finished bottom 6 with an 8-14 record seven years into Hardwick's tenure. Richmond had qualified for three finals series but failed to win any. They had achieved no more than we did in winning two finals last year. As to their list turnover, they traded out Deledio and moved on a bunch of NQRs. They then brought in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy, then went to the draft (but took no first round pick). I wouldn't call that a major list rebuild. But there should be a lesson there for us. Target the right players who either want out (Prestia), don't fit (Caddy) or can't get a game (Nankervis) at their club and can fill a void at our club (e.g. for us, find some outside run, and a small forward). So no, I don't agree a rebuild is necessary.

Richmond have the following small pressure forwards on their list: Castagna, Rioli, Baker, Buttler, Bolton, Higgins. Not all of them are stars but they can’t all fit into their 22 and all would be an upgrade on what we have. One of these would be a good start.

He didn't bother yelling at the forwards. Just ran down there and showed them how to kick a big goal! Loved it!!

RSN Breakfast Club @RSNBreakfast "Melbourne are quite keen to talk to him about a potential role for next year." Julian de Stoop says the Dees are coming for Brendon Bolton #RSNBreakfastClub Yep! I like this a lot! He was highly regarded at hawthorn for his development and positive relationship with the players.

We have a huge injury list but I'm not sure we have a huge list of injury prone players. I'd put Vanders, KK and even Joel Smith in that category, but a lot of teams have carried far more than that including the Pies with Reid, Elliott, Wells, Darcy Moore, Scharenberg etc. Elliott's a free agent and the level of talent that I'd fully support rolling the dice for at the right price. If he's available for 2 years at 300k/year you'd do it straight away, if it's 4 years at 600k pa you'd say no thanks. Depending on what happens between now and the end of the year I'd imagine his value is somewhere between those ranges.

It would be near impossible for young supporters to know what Robbie Flower meant to supporters, young and old in those dismal days.Even when he had an average day of 15 hard earned disposals he did things that made the best of the opposition look second rate. And who could forget his Big V appearances. We knew he would star for the Vics and show everyone how good he was and he never let us down. I only ever saw him slightly beaten once and that was at Princes Park by a young South Australian, Motley, just before his tragic accident. What a player he would have been.

From the outside looking in it's very hard to tell what they contribute in an on-field & off-field capacity. For example, back in 2007-2008 , when off-field, James MacDonald was a ray of sunshine that kept the spirit around the club up; quite different to his ferocious demeanour on-field. As far as Nathan and 300 games go, it shouldn't be something the club 'gets him to'. If he gets there it should be on merit only. 300 games or not, he's carved out an impressive career.

She'd want to keep her maiden name, EO.

Injuries and and interrupted pre-seasons are the reasons for our two tackle quarter, jeeeeeeez.

You appear to be confusing errors and breaking team rules. All players make errors, some more than others. I don't think berating a player for an error is ok. But breaking team rules is different, and what if May had a quiet word with Frost earlier and he went and broke the same team rule again? I am not talking about a skill error I'm talking about breaking team rules.I think May is doing his job to remind a player if they have broken team rules. Frost didn't want to hear it and May let him know.

Absolutely. Though the thing that jumped out at me re the Lewis comments were re the May/Frost "discussion", where he made the point that Sam hasn't played in a team where he's had a player around him like May to make those kinds of comments in the first place. "It's basically two players who haven't played together very much". Which goes back to the subject of this very thread, and the lack of time together over the pre-season and onwards.

Not sure what you're playing the victim about matey, but pretty much completely disagree with everything you've just said. Frost isn't a whipping boy at all, this is in no way a thread for indictment of him, it's about assessing the tense few moments between Frost and May. One is an erratic, developing, talented defender who borders on cult figure status with us Dees fans, the other is a highly rated defender and former captain who oozes leadership, if our players opinions on that matter at all, (and I assure you, they matter more than ours). There is no slight on Frost, and I for one love that we finally have a directional leader out there as none of the current official ones playing seem to be any good at that at all.

None of us know for sure what May was talking about with Frost. It could well have been a specific thing discussed before or during the game which Frost messed up and May found disappointing. I rarely agree with anything Leigh Matthews says but I agreed with his comment that, if anything, May might have gone on about it too long, but it's impossible to know given we couldn't hear what was being said. I'll say one thing though: at three quarter time, neither Viney nor Jones looked like they wanted anything to do with it. Whether you agree with May or not, I find it unforgivably poor that neither captain got involved even in the slightest.

No. It’s time to get nasty This place has been nice for years Players just jogging around.... I was wrong about May, his attitude is great ?

look at the top sides they all have good small forwards, we have 1, who now struggles with injury and form RICH won it with 3 genuine small forwards and have since recruited even more that year they played ADE in gf who had E BETTS and C CAMERON in their side WC won it with W RIOLI , J CRIPPS and L RYAN COLL have J DEGOEY, J STEPHESON( more medium size but have same skills and leg speed) J ELLIOT GEE have this year added G MIERS, and plonked non other than G ABLETT with him and now sit on top of ladder GIANTS not so much but still have T GREEN HAWKS had C RIOLI, L BRUST, P POPPY in their prime in their good years M WALTERS and J CAMERON have both had outstanding years and have helped lift their sides up the ladder this year last time MELB played off in a GF in 2000 we had J FARMER who kicked 76 goals that year and won AA Now look to the bottom half of the ladder and there are not as many good small forwards among the bottom 10 teams (except maybe ess , tippa and fanta) though I do like Gresham, Brust and papley So while I understand we also lack in other positions, but can we PLEASE draft or trade for some ready made SMALL FORWARDS who kick goals

SWYL, this is the exact thing that has been lost over time. I agree (from an outsider looking in) that the moving on of Junior was appalling. The reality is though, his contribution in his final year had gone backwards, and added to that was his body letting him down. Even though there are different people in charge now, I personally believe the club has a great opportunity to prove they have learnt from that mistake by the way they could handle the Jones situation. Tap him on the shoulder, do it respectfully, and he'll end a brilliant MFC career at the end of this season. He aint going to get any faster next year, yet the position he will be playing will require him to.

Wow the naysayers making excuses I am with @Sir Why You Little on this one I watched the players who had post season surgery come out of rehab, every single one said they were fitter than ever, I watched the 2k's, they were The issue this season is down to skills, form and consistency of 4 qtr efforts, they have all been lacking Losing 3 really important players in AVB, Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped To use the preseason as an excuse is a cop out There was no new game plan to learn or implement All our issues this season have been above the shoulders

end thread

These were the starting midfield that spent the most time in the midfield in center bounces and around the ground. Martin, Lyons, Zorko, Neale McCluggege all combined for 27 tackles for the day. Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes all combines for just 13 Tackles..

Cale Morton

That to me shows its an attitude issue right now. To lay 2 tackles for an entire quarter is absolutely disgraceful. Brings back haunting memories of the Mark Neeld days.

May - 27 years old, 127 games, club captain, under 18 All-Australian. Frost - 25 years old, 83 games. Reckon May is close to the perfect person to be telling other defenders what to do actually. Who would you rather instructing him? Petty?

Thought it easier to put my answers in red in your post.

Hilarious how sensitive the journalists are when they cop a whack, and how far they go to back each other up. Caro backing up broken promise. No question on why Jesse has a go, which is pretty bloody unusual. If ever there was a bunch that can dish it out and not take it, it's the non footy playing journalists.

This squad or at least the majority hasn't had it. They have seen improvement every year since 2014, yes there has been injuries and the interupted pre seasons having an impact but a feeling of natural progression and it will just happen may have set in to what at the core of it is still an inexperienced unit in the nucleus

I saw the Lewis interview and immediately thought of these 3 ..Brayshaw, Harmes, Oliver. All 3 played Hollywood style football on the weekend and only ran one way.

... will mean this place will go into absolute meltdown. Hoping for a win and if we come to play we can quite obviously win but I'm not sure we've played consistently well in one game this year. So play well and up to expectations and we'll win. Wouldn't put my hard-earned on it though.

Don't oh please me 'bin'....Yep, the Pies are 2nd and WC 3rd...where are we? I wish we were near as ineffective as those 2 teams. ... it wouldn't surprise me to see them play off again this year by the way. You are making excuse upon excuse, clutching at straws. WC won the flag with a team missing NicNat, nominally their best player, Gaff best mid and Sheppard a quality defender. It was obvious that we had some problems that needed to be sorted. Those problems have been amplified this year. We need to reset and move forward...

MORRIS: 'I wasn't fired by Melbourne' ALSO MORRIS: 'Melbourne said I should leave' ?‍♂️ Reporter Tom Morris responds to Jesse Hogan’s extraordinary Twitter tirade

This is a bit of an over reaction. The competition is very even this year and we were always on the back foot. Gutting the list shows no faith in any of the players. Brayshaw finished top 5 in the Brownlow last year. Sure, he’s underperformed this year, but you look to trade stars in and not trade them out. This list, once healthy, can win a premiership. There’s at least 8 lists in the league that could win the premiership. I feel we are trying to reinvent the wheel in this forum sometimes, or in NFL terms trying for a Hail Mary when sometimes the best thing to do is take a knee. Next year will be different. This year has been a write off since the pre-season surgeries.

Heaven help us if what we are now seeing is the gameplan

Our 2019 is dead as most here agree. And most are advocating that we plan for next season now. So why wouldn't we practice our game plan for next season now with a team as close as we can to the one we think will play next season? IMO it's why Hannan, Lever and others have played when prima facie they haven't really been ready.

How about this. Coaches know to the nth degree players current capacity due to all the metrics they have - and will not waiver from the game style as they understand that the players in 2019 because of fitness/injury/preason cannot actually polish off the game style. BUT rather than revert to another game style for the sake of one year- understand the bigger picture of refinement of numerous seasons. It is US supporters who take things out of context - whom look at things in one year cycles, or get emotional over things in an even shorter amount of time particularly when we are losing, and lose sight of the bigger picture.

It'll be slightly ironic if we lose to Carlton: in that the media is presently crying out for Roos to save the Blues; in circumstances where the Blues have just beaten us. Perhaps we should also join the hunt for Roos' signature? That said, I reckon we're not as bad as many here think we are. There are reasons, most of which are plain for all to see, as to why we have under-performed this year.

Things don't work at the MFC, that is the problem...has been for decades, Seeing someone on the field REALLY care that a mistake was made, and that it was not good enough was music to my ears. Hope he gives Jones or Viney a blast when they butcher a basic skill too, things may actually change for the better Our on field leadership has been shocking for so long.

Hinkley recently made a statement and dropped: Rockcliff, Westoff, Ryder and Powell-Pepper. There was an article yesterday about Ollie Wines (co-captain) the next one on the chopping block. That is what strong coaches do. The way our midfielders danced around and blindly flicked the ball around was awful - they wouldn't take a tackle. It was like a playground. As usual Oliver constantly trotted after an opp rather than chased. He has good tackle numbers but to players who are 1 mt away. He doesn't do the hard stuff. Neither does Brayshaw. Even Harmes' intensity has dropped off lately. Viney also looked like he caught the 'hands off' bug. Would love to see their metres run stats and the 'heat map'. The season is gone; we will end up bottom 3. I don't care who we bring in. Some statements need to be made. Hinkley did it. Clarkson did it. Even Hardwick dropped fan idol Higgins. Our coaches cannot avoid the hard decisions. If they do is it any wonder the players don't do the hard stuff. The sooner our players realise that no-one is a 'protected species' the better we will be. Perhaps drop Oliver until he learns to chase, defend and kick - no bigger statement than that. Everyone will be on notice.

as a football club we will learn from it and get better!

Carlton will be without Cripps and C Curnow. If we lose to them it will be up there as one of our worst losses in decades. Absolutely gutting how this year has turned out for us. Pathetic.

In Lever, JKH and Preuss Out Petty, Smith and ANB

I can think of three more important things than a list rebuild that we need to do going into 2020: Change/tweak the gameplan - less playing on, fewer handpasses, more kick-mark, feeding into better connection between the midfielders and forwards Fitness - full overhaul needed here. Too many players stuck in rehab too long, too many injuries, not enough two-way running, too many players failing to develop physically Leadership - Viney/Jones need to be removed from captaincy and it needs to be given to Gawn. We need to make some list changes too of course, but we don't need the drastic changes that some on here suggest. I don't agree that we stand to benefit by trading out someone like Brayshaw or Petracca. We'll get a top 5 pick and a second rounder in the 20-25 range. Do our homework, take those to the draft, and bring in two quality top-25 draft picks.

Seriously, I'm embarrassed to be a Melbourne supporter if there are posters that think this is a bad look. Good God.

The staggering thing in all this is that he’s still employed by On The Couch, whose own hosts don’t even seem to trust him. A few weeks after the so-called falling out between Macca and Goody last year, he made similar claims about GWS - that Leon Cameron had also been banished to the bench. When pressed further about how a senior coach could be turfed from his own coaching box, and by whom, Morris had nothing, except a vague reference to the ‘powers-that-be.’ The boys on the couch were less than impressed. Even this year, when he tried to revive the so-called rift between Macca and Goody, Healy had to remind him that he needed to ring Macca and get both sides of the story - something Morris clearly hadn’t done. I’ve worked in journalism and media for 25 years and can spot a fraud at 1000 paces. This guy is at the very top of the tree when it comes to duds.