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In an effort to move past the teeth gnashing and knee jerk reactions to this year's disappointments it's time to acknowledge that the real reason probably started a few days after the loss to WCE in the Preliminary Final last year when something like 17 players were scheduled for end of season operations to fix ankles, shoulders, hips, knees and heavens knows what else. This cruelled our preseason which most recognize is the foundation stone of strong on field performances. Fitness is a non negotiable in footy and we just don't have it. It was reported here that Craig Jennings (I think) said that at one stage in the preseason we had 12 players fit enough to complete the main session indicating that the injuries we had went well beyond those who had operations. Key players effected included:- Our entire starting midfield had interrupted preseasons - Viney, Harmes and Oliver had operations and Jones and Brayshaw had injuries. If my memory is correct none started with the main group until February and some not until March. Three of our best forwards had interrupted preseasons - Tmac had both ankles operated on, Melk had hammy issues and Trac a knee operation Our best defenders had interrupted preseasons - Jetta a knee, May with his issues and Lever recovering from an ACL. From memory Hibberd might also have had a operation. This is a list of the "main crew" who had little or no preseason.. Then there were players like Stretch, Hannan, Oscar Baker and Hore who were also significantly disrupted. Through no fault of anyone, unless you want to suggest we send 13 of our Preliminary Final players off for end of season surgery in August, these players lack fitness because of the lack of a proper preseason. I think this lack of fitness underlies the majority of the issues we have faced this year including:- an inability to run out games inability to play 4 quarters basic skill errors - these occur when plays fatigue a lack of confidence a lack of connection a lack of two way running Compounding this has been a wretched run of injury in season. AVB, Smith, May, Melksham, Hibberd and Jetta have been significant losses. JKH, Stretch, KK and Garlett have added to our issues. On Champion Data stats we lost 89 games to injury to our best 22 in the first 10 games - 50% more than any other team and this on top of a poor preseason. You can carry some injuries but there reaches a stage when you lose so many that the game just falls apart because you're playing too many players who are NQR. We've seen this with Richmond and Collingwood. Is it any surprise that Geelong and Brisbane are doing surprisingly well. They've had no injuries of note. And is it any surprise that Gawn and Salem have performed so well. To my knowledge they had good preseasons. The vitriol directed at players, coaches and fitness staff beg the reality of our situation. Calls to rebuild, change the coach and radically change the game plan ignore core issues that have led to our situation. Posters are far too keen to find blame rather than find reasons. I've never been more confident that we've got the building blocks to be very good. There are some gaps in our list we need to fill and we could well do that in this trade period. This has been a disappointing year but is not reflective of our Club or the players and staff.

Honestly, being at the ground, I thought up until half way through the third quarter, it was about the cleanest and most confident ball use that I'd seen all year. When Steve May kicked that goal I thought that we had opened up a break on them big enough to start putting on some score board pressure and control the game. Then a champion young players of theirs Hipwood had a purple patch to be envious of, kicked something like 5 goals straight (most of which were from pretty tough spots) and the pendulum swung completely. I can't say who was on Hipwood for all of those goals, but early in the last, it was Petty who was getting a bath, which was quickly switched to Frosty who stemed the bleading from that point on. I can honestly imagine if it had been Oscar, then the guy would be copping a huge whipping on this forum. I can honestly say that though he made it back out onto the ground that I don't feel Max had anything like his usual impact after half time either, which is fair enough. I can honestly say I can't see what good publicaly berating our players would do when one of our biggest problems at the moment is confidence. I haven't listed to many (if any) of Goody's press conferences this year, but from what I recall of him last season, he is pretty down the line and clear with the areas he thinks we are falling down in and need to improve. As much as I hate us loosing, and the emotions associated with that, I don't think unloading all of that and the associated critisism it would unleash would be productive. I also honestly think that Brisbane are a pretty decient side now and that going up and beating them on their home deck would have been a huge upset for us, which at times it almost looked like we were going to pull off, but they got the better of us in the end and that's the way it goes. I am honestly concerned about the ease at which they were able to break clear of us from their back half and through the centre if the ground and win most of the stoppages in the last 3/8ths of the game, because they made us look fairly second rate once the worm turned. Perhaps the injured Max factor was part of that, but can't be all of it and we need to do better. I honestly think the way we are playing at the moment, we are down one mature gun onballer and that the drop off of Jones, Bernie before him and then the loss of AVB has really hurt us in that regard. I honestly think it was the best game that I've seen Salem play in a few matches, that from the game he played, I can see the value in recruiting Steve May. I can also honestly say that I think Trac has elevated his game this season to the point that if we were playing better as a team he would be completely busting open games being lauded for delivering on his potential, but because we are not, he gets dragged down with the team performance.

Love it Snoop dog. A rare ray of logic shining through the morass. There is a lot of focus on injuries but the poor preseason is the real kicker as players can never get the fitness base game if not done pre season. its just not possible. Injuries hurt a team's chances of course but the impact is mitigated if the club had a good pre season with high percentages of players completing most if not all sessions. Richmond is good example this year. We have had the both issues and the impact is plain to see. I'd add that it must really hurt a teams capacity to run effective drill that simulate game plan and introduce any new systems when so many players can't train with the main group. Compounding that issue is who can't train. Having your key mids not available makes it hugely difficult to plan and practice set ups and plays at stoppages, which are critical parts of any game plan.

Agree with the OP. More often than not, we've faded from about half way through the third quarter onwards. That's a fitness issue. And when you are not fit and lagging towards the end of a game, skills start to go missing. When you get exhausted, both cognitive skills and physical skills go backwards at a great rate of knots. During the season, players can't make up the fitness they've missed through a bad pre-season, because they spend all week recovering their banged up bodies and general soreness. It's not like they can go for a 10km run the next morning. And I'm over the "yeah but other teams found a way through it" mantra, like we just can't bear to recognise the fitness deficiency and want to blame coaches, attitude and some whipping boys for the answer. No other team has had the surgeries, injuries and ongoing best-22 player loss that we've had. Nowhere near it.

Accepting the preseason/surgery/injury/fitness issues, I have one simple question: Why has the coach persisted with a ballistic, fast brand of contested football that requires going flat out for 4 qtrs and in his words 'we the easiest to score against'? One of two answers: 1. Coaches believe players are not fit enough to play the ballistic brand but are too stupid/stubborn to adjust the brand to what player fitness allows. OR 2. Coaches believe players are fit enough and there are other reasons for non-performance Take your pick. Either or. #stoptheexcuses

Rubbish. They were not as hard as us. No where close. Not in the same universe. A completely unhelpful myth.

I was there too and this is pretty much my take on the game. Sounds like the telly experience was different, but I was reasonably happy with how we were travelling until halfway through the third quarter before Hipwood had a purple patch and took the momentum away from us. We had chances to get back into it but once again skill errors and bad decision making killed it off. But Brisbane are a very hard side to beat at the Gabba, especially once the sun goes down and the dew gets up, and it was 6th vs 16th so it wasn't that surprising. I wanted a win, and don't worry, there were plenty of frustrating moments (Brayshaw/ANB/Harmes/McDonald), but overall I don't think it was a performance deserving of all the doom and gloom on this forum.

Yep. Exacltly like them. Assertions based on innacurate information and opinion confused with fact. For example that omac is not up to AFL standard. Which is your opinion. And one clearly not shared by the club given they saw fit to extend his contract (which they tend not to for players not at AFL standard).That they extended this contract is a fact. There's a new one too. That he won't be back. On omac he is one of the 17 players who had post season surgery and had an interrupted preseason. Like his team mates his struggles this season need to be seen in this context.

All the above are even more reason for Preuss to be included whether Maxy plays or not. Preuss’s size makes him an X factor who is hard to match up on, let alone predict. The selectors must ignore the fact that Max may be dominant( if fit ) and make life difficult for Carlton by selecting 2 imposing figures. Surely Preuss is likely to be more effective and useful than any of Weideman, Smith, and T.Mac , even if it’s just by imposing the fear factor So in my view its Preuss for Smith

I have been watching a recording of the last game against the Lions in the cool and calm a few days after the disappointment. This year I have only seen the Bombers game live, in round 3 I think, and that too was a disappointment but I have watched most of our games on tv, so perhaps I am not ideally qualified to offer a valid critique. However without being inside the playing/coaching group can any of us really know what the instructions and expectations are from within. There are a number here calling for more talent on the list if not a rebuild. After rewatching a few games I think there is sufficient talent to be a lot better than we are. It goes without saying that we should continue to build and prune our talent and so will every other team, with varying degrees of success. I was taught to add value to your possessions not waste them. This is what stood out for me in this game, so many turnovers from our players not adding any value to the team effort from their possessions. Is this crash and bash style, mostly lacking in any football skill, being played under instruction or have we recruited collectively the dumbest group of athletes ever to call themselves a football team. I am hoping it is the former not the latter because the former is a relatively easy fix. I also hope we don’t have to witness a coaching upheaval to achieve the fix. I also think the chaos brand of football is responsible to some degree for a lot of our players missing through injury and not getting time on the ground together to gell as a team. This one tempo chaos football is taking its toll in many ways. The team lacks cohesion in all parts of the ground and the various skills of our players are not being utilised, ie, Too many players contesting the one possession instead of working together to win the ball, Kicking at teammates instead of allowing them to run onto the ball, Same thing, bombing the ball on SamW and Toms heads, Short handballs and kicks not clearing the contest, simply transferring the pressure to a teammate, Brayshaw giving more than half his possessions back to the opposition. I could go on, what we are seeing week after week is dumb football. Put value on your possessions mfc.

Sorry, it's not. I went to the preliminary. It was hot, we were coming off two intense games, had to travel.accross the country and we were totally cooked half way through the first. West coast, who went on to win the premiership had a weeks rest and played at home. Way too much has been made of that lost. Exactly as snoop dog says people have bagged us for following others plans. We have ours. Now it might not be the right one, but this is not the year to be definitive about that. And last year's prelim is one game. We beat the same team (albeit missing Kennedy) 3 weeks earlier.

Bad preseason does not equal bad skills or playing stupid dumb football.

One thing stopping me from buying into this theory is that we were as bad in the Prelim last year (i.e., before surgeries) as we have been all this year. Unless all our players went in for surgery on the Saturday morning after we beat Hawthorn, I think our problems run way deeper.

For this reason I've been keeping my powder dry this year. I thought we'd have a down year but didn't think it would be this down. If we can get to 9 or 10 wins I think we'll have done ok but the main thing is the FD need to ensure our squad (and best 22 in particular) is ready to go day 1 of preseason. No excuses, if anyone needs surgery, send them off now don't wait til August/September. If Viney or Tmac goes for post season surgery (or even Gawn following his ankle roll on Sunday) and we find out theyve been grinding it out in a nothing season not only will I be [censored] off but the coaches will not be able to throw that excuse out again in 2020.

Hinkley recently made a statement and dropped: Rockcliff, Westoff, Ryder and Powell-Pepper. There was an article yesterday about Ollie Wines (co-captain) the next one on the chopping block. That is what strong coaches do. The way our midfielders danced around and blindly flicked the ball around was awful - they wouldn't take a tackle. It was like a playground. As usual Oliver constantly trotted after an opp rather than chased. He has good tackle numbers but to players who are 1 mt away. He doesn't do the hard stuff. Neither does Brayshaw. Even Harmes' intensity has dropped off lately. Viney also looked like he caught the 'hands off' bug. Would love to see their metres run stats and the 'heat map'. The season is gone; we will end up bottom 3. I don't care who we bring in. Some statements need to be made. Hinkley did it. Clarkson did it. Even Hardwick dropped fan idol Higgins. Our coaches cannot avoid the hard decisions. If they do is it any wonder the players don't do the hard stuff. The sooner our players realise that no-one is a 'protected species' the better we will be. Perhaps drop Oliver until he learns to chase, defend and kick - no bigger statement than that. Everyone will be on notice.

We let them walk through the middle 'bin'...our midfield weren't switched on and got smashed. That was where the game was lost.

Not sure Goody is the best person to be telling them they're making the same mistakes over and over every week when he's continuing with the same game plan/style every week (that sees us currently 16th), even though rule changes and AFL trends (on top of fitness/injury issues) make it a complete disaster for us.

Terrific news !!! Now give Max the weekend off and let's see what Pruess can do!

Excellent point ... and that won't be the end of it either as I'm reckoning that we'll make some more moves with the coaching structure at seasons end (with Goodwin staying of course) And we'll probably move up to 10 players on and maybe 1 or 2 more than that if we trade aggressively in the off-season. As for the current skills that we witness ... a massive improvement is needed. Also, we weren't switched on for the first 6 games this season so that's another issue. And the gameplan looks outdated. So a lot has to happen if we're to climb the ladder again. The OP made a number of good points but our reality reveals other problems that can't be ignored. I'm neither confident nor despondent about our chances next season. But there is a lot of work ahead if we're to win more games than we lose.

Don't oh please me 'bin'....Yep, the Pies are 2nd and WC 3rd...where are we? I wish we were near as ineffective as those 2 teams. ... it wouldn't surprise me to see them play off again this year by the way. You are making excuse upon excuse, clutching at straws. WC won the flag with a team missing NicNat, nominally their best player, Gaff best mid and Sheppard a quality defender. It was obvious that we had some problems that needed to be sorted. Those problems have been amplified this year. We need to reset and move forward...

It does. It completely and utterly does. What do you think it takes to maintain, yet alone improve, skills at an elite level? Yet we've had a substantial number in the team who couldn't even kick a ball, yet alone practise overhead marking, for months on end. Same for "dumb" football. It's about a) decision-making and b) you being aware of what's going on around you. Both of which you need to practise. At the moment, not only do players not really know what those around them are going to do (due to lack of time together), half the time I wonder if they even know WHO is around them, the team has been so unsettled since last year's finals.

People with short memories want to forget Melbourne was literally the spent and walking wounded when they played the Prelim last year.

I didn't mean to suggest that the preseason troubles are the only reason, only that the preseason is the main reason and explains much of what has gone wrong. BECAUSE: Poor preseason > loss of games > loss of confidence > lots of pressure > skill errors and on and on. My post was to balance the rather irrational and ill considered calls for: change the coach - he was exceptional last year and coaches don't change all that much. And he's a better coach now than he was then. He's just dealing with a completely different situation. change the game plan - it got us to the Preliminary final last year where 13 of our players needed post season operations. Are you surprised we got spanked? I've read here for years that we are always followers but when we have a game plan with a point of difference that was very successful last year everyone wants to change it. Go figure. change the players - I mean who in their right mind wants to trade Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw etc etc and go to the draft and start all over again in the hope that in 5 years we'll be better.

I wouldnt let May, Oliver, Gawn, Preuss, Jones or Viney marry my daughter... Marty Hore however...

So, if injuries are to blame, why did we have a midseason internal review that resulted in a coaching structure change?

Another factor to consider is the fact that we are still a very inexperienced side week to week. Take last week for eg. Ave games round 14 GC 72.1 Syd 73.9 Melb 76.0 - Carl 93.5 - Bris 101 GWS 101 Rich 107.0 Adel 112.0 Haw 119.0 Gee 123.0 WCE 134.0 The top 6 teams on the ladder are 6 of the 7 most experienced teams last weekend. Plus Haw who are looking at a massive drop off IMO

Welcome. The truth lies somewhere in-between the extremist views on this site, I think you'll find. I don't think anyone doubts that off-season injuries and interruptions to preparation have had an impact on our ability to perform at our best and therefore impacted our season. Except maybe @Satyriconhome because he's in constant denial. However, I can't fathom the thought that it is only injuries and interrupted prep that is the reason we find ourselves third bottom from the ladder with eight rounds remaining. And anyone who believes it is only injuries has rocks in their head. Seriously. Worrying trends in our game, the changing of the rules, an inflexible coach playing the same game plan, some complacent young players, etc, etc. There are many factors. The interrupted pre-seasons to players has only further highlighted the inadequacies that have existed since 2018. That is indisputable. We got absolutely schooled and smashed in the prelim by West Coast which should have been a wake-up call. Collingwood had done the same to us earlier in 2018 as well as a couple of other sides. The trends throughout last year have carried into this year, fit players or not. If we win contested ball convincingly, we generally win. Allow us to get first hands on and then pressure and harass us, we're in enormous trouble. We only know how to play one way. Not dissimilar to Essendon's 'free flowing and fast paced game'. They're not balanced and neither are we. Generally, I use this forum as a place to vent frustration like many others. But I don't believe it's all doom and gloom for us. I simply see this year as a massive learning curve for Simon Goodwin and a test for him more than anything else. Like Chris Scott last year, like Buckley and Hardwick after their down years, Goody has an opportunity to recalibrate. List balance, game-style etc. I hate saying things like this, but it's the year we had to have imo.

I accept the fact that pre season medical issues impacted on our fitness - no doubt about it. However, SYWL makes a very valid point about skills - or lack thereof. In the games I have attended, I have witnessed appalling kicking, marking and handballing that reverted to the embarrassing level that I thought we had left behind us. I also saw terrible decision making time and again in the way we enter forward fifty. Although our forwards also have to carry a share of the blame in this as they are too often stone footed and seem unable to lead or are caught way out of position. They have generally been poor in keeping the pill in our attacking zone. These matters cannot be explained by lack of fitness.

#stopmakingsense ?

What you say has some merit, but we are not the first team to play a Final Series and then send players to hospital. Meth Coke and The Filth were also hit hard. They dealt with it and sorted out a plan B, whilst we have not

I wish I’d continued wandering through Turkey and Georgia rather than return to the Northern Rivers to watch that unaccountable slop on Sunday. That’s the most ineffective midfield group we’ve ever put up. So let’s change it up.. (rest Gawn) ... the new mid six is... Preuss, Lewis Petracca and Salem in the square and JKH and Baker on the outside. The front six is T Smith Oliver and ANB, TMac Fritsch Hunt and the back six could be Jones May Hore, Frost Lever Viney... Leaving the bench of Weed to spell Preuss, Maynard as a mid, Hibberd and Lockhart... gotta do something drastic because getting rolled by Carlton would be the pits. Outs..Gawn inj. Brayshaw Petty Harmes Hannan dropped In.. Preuss, Lever, Lewis, JKH, Maynard

Being a Brisbane lad, Baker had a massive cohort of mates and family at the game and was pretty nervous as a result. He had previously been delisted by the Lions Academy as well so I reckon he was just trying too hard and yes, got caught a few times and gave away a few freekicks. Definitely persist with him though as he'll learn and he's just the type of player (speed, outside run) we need to develop and grow.

Wasn’t he already doing some work down at Collingwood?

Honestly, this has to be one of the best spelling errors ever.

Garry was pretty honest on On the Couch, when he said, we were the worst disposing team in the AFL and why would the game plan stay the same when it is clearly not working. He had a go at the Coaching for not adapting to what was happening.

Well that’s an honest response Clint, I appreciate that.

I couldn’t follow the post, can anyone translate from Boomer into English for me?

Rest him. Play Preuss for a few weeks and then play them together as a trial for 2020 ffs. Season is gone, time to experiment a bit. Reward players like JKH, drop any senior player who is not pulling their weight. Goodwin needs a rocket himself.

None of us know for sure what May was talking about with Frost. It could well have been a specific thing discussed before or during the game which Frost messed up and May found disappointing. I rarely agree with anything Leigh Matthews says but I agreed with his comment that, if anything, May might have gone on about it too long, but it's impossible to know given we couldn't hear what was being said. I'll say one thing though: at three quarter time, neither Viney nor Jones looked like they wanted anything to do with it. Whether you agree with May or not, I find it unforgivably poor that neither captain got involved even in the slightest.

Lol massive clean out. Where are these amazing depth players who would be helping us? Hogan went out for May in. Kent went ok at the Saints but is now injured. Tyson - couldn't get a game at North. Bugg - delisted himself from Carlton. Filipovic? Johnstone? King? McKenna? Pedersen? I agree we don't need to make massive list changes this year but the idea that our delistings last year had anything to do with our win loss this year was wrong. Our depth is poor because our depth players - Tim Smith, Keilty, JKH, Stretch, Wagner * 2, Maynard - have either copped a lot of injuries or just aren't very good. We'll keep some, move others on but it won't be a big factor.

I had a look at Hipwood’s ‘ GameBreaker’ highlights to see how he got his goals. Hore was on Hipwood for the first goal, ball watched and allowed Hipwood to run to the top of the square unopposed. May let Hore know all about it too. May was on him for the second, Hipwood just beat him on a lead. Petty was on him for his 3rd and like Hore for Hipwood’s first goal, ball watched and allowed him to run free for another mark and goal. Petty was on him for his 4th and 5th also. 2 of his first 3 goals were due to basic defensive errors from a couple of inexperienced players. Hipwood was allowed to get off the leash so to speak. Since we are being honest, I thought Salem was a bit unlucky not to get a coaches vote. He was by far our best player. In a game where we led for about 60% of the time no MFC player got a vote.

As per that article, back in May we had lost 89 games of best 22 players. GWS were in second, but way back on 65. That is a huge difference. Since that time they have had best 22 players come back. Of our outs only May (but only 2 games ago) and Hannan (whi has struggled, as replayers returning from long lay offs usually do) have come back and we have added Hibberd, Garlett and Lewis to that list. Make no mistake this been a disaster injury and pre season preparation wise. The worst run in my time following the club. I don't care how much depth you have you don't cover the sort of losses we've had - and you're right we don't have great depth.

Salem's game is one of the few good things to come out of this season. He was pretty good last year, but this season he has really shone through and elevated his game to the next level of maturity in my view. Despite all that, I have felt that his form had dipped a little in the recent month or so (perhaps he had an injury somewhere in there, I forget), but I felt he was really quite dominant and influential for big parts of Sundays game, which was great to see.

Ok let's leave Smith out of the discussion. I forgot about jetts. An absolute key player for us as evidenced by the fact that small and medium forwards have destroyed us this year. When he did play was clearly injured and has been out now for what 7-8 weeks. So if you do count Smith in our best 22 we had 6 of our best 22 out against the lions, nearly a third (and 3 of them are easliy in our top 10). The lions had ALL of their best players, indeed they had almost a complete list of 44 players to choose from. So no surprise we lost.

Don't know exactly what it was about, buy I don't mind it at all. Was super impressed with Steve May's game and I thought that on the whole Frosty played a pretty good game as well. I was sitting behind the goals, so got to see alot of the work back there. One thing that really stood out was how much Frosty was getting scragged holding the man by his opponent, but only once was a free kick played. Getting back to the stouch between May and Frosty, I thought it showed good intensity and compeditive desire from both of them and great leadership from May to make a point of whatever it was that was the issue at hand. I can only see good things comming from having a quality experienced backman working with Frost to help iron out the wrinkles in his game. I noticed this dynamic between them in a preseason training clip on the club website as well. I see it more as a robust discussion and our players calling themselves in areas they need to lift than anything more sinister. Done in the right way at the right time, it has to be so much more effective for a team mate to be having that blunt honest conversation than for the coach to have exactly the same conversation. Being their on ground level right next to them also provides experienced players like May a vantage point and perspective that the coach can never have as well.

Someone complained to me today about paying for their membership by the month (and Grand Final guarantee included). When will this torture end?! was the gist of their complaint. Seeing the money go out of their account every month just rubs salt into the wounds of the long suffering Melbourne supporter.

People are worrying too much. We will finish 14th this year, ergo, we must beat Carlton. How do I I know we will finish 14th? History! 1998 - 4th, winning two finals. 1999 - 14th 2002 - 6th, winning one final, 2003 - 14th 2006 - 7th, winning one final, 2007 - 14th On only one occasion in 25 seasons (including 2019) will the Melbourne Demons have won a final and then not finished 14th the season after. That would be 2000, where we finished 3rd, made the grand final, and the next year finished... 11th. But that hardly defeats the theory. Win a final. Finish 14th. It is the Melbourne way.