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Hah ha comedy gold. You're dreaming. Hibberd AA in his first year. Pick 29. Break even? Melksham our best fwd in the second half of the year by some margin. 2nd round pick? I'd like four more disasters like that this trade period.

Great wins: Crows (A), Eagles (A) Good wins: Saints (E), Essendon (E), Dogs (E), Port (MCG) Respectable wins: Collingwood (MCG), Saints (MCG) Ordinary wins: Carlton (MCG), Gold Coast (TP), Carlton (MCG), Lions (MCG) Honorable losses: Cats (E), Tigers (MCG) Expectable losses: Swans (MCG), Crows (TIO), GWS (A) Poor losses: Freo (MCG), Hawthorn (MCG), North (MCG), North (A), Collingwood (MCG) There's more "Great" and "Good" wins than "Poor" losses. I think the former show that we can compete at the highest level (including the losses to the Cats and Tigers) - we defeated 4 of the top 8. But the sheer number of the latter show that there's an ongoing cultural problem at the club. Goodwin rightly says he's not interested in ancient history and that this group is writing their own story. There's some good chapters and bad chapters in that story already.

knowing the city of yarra, they will probably name the proposed safe injecting facility the dustin martin centre.

I once lived next to a Latvian bloke. Hell of a nice bloke. Teacher. I once ran over a rabbit bringing him back from a day of fishing. He excitedly called for me to stop the car. He jumped out, ran over to the rabbit, and proceeded to prepare it for dinner with his pocket knife. The rest of the trip was made a little more entertaining with him wrapping the pelt around his hand (head and all) and using it as a finger puppet, with his finger stuck up inside the rabbits brain. Him and his missus liked to sit in a warm bath, slurping bongs all night. Yeah, Latvia. Must be an interesting place.

Some of you need to learn show some respect. These guys are working their arses off for this club - they all want to succeed, and I expect they want to succeed at the MFC. Sure, some of them aren't quite good enough, or haven't showed quite enough, or are past their used by date. But, for a period of time, they have served this club, they have sweated for this club. Surely this is to be respected. For those of you who seem to take some weird glee each year in the delisting thread, pull your heads in. I expect many of you don't even know what the inside of a weights room looks like, nor would you look any of these players in the eye when delivering such harsh criticism. They are not cattle. Rather, they're footballers who've represented this club, some of whom may potentially represent it for a few years to come. Fair dinkum.

Yeh. The Hibberd trade was a disaster..

Stats hmm Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9 Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th See a trend here ?

Is he a free agent at the end of 2018? It makes sense to try to trade the year before his contract expires, if his club thinks he might walk. OK, he's not the ideal, but he does have the right tools, and he may be a lot more gettable. Especially if we're forced to give a bit more to land Lever. As my daughter might say, he's not Beyonce, but he's a good solid Kelly Rowland!

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement. My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession.

Anyone else still feeling like absolute crap? I can't even bring myself to look at any of the footy shows or listen to sen or anything, just makes me angry.

Agreed. I would think a short email along the lines of: Hi.... Our whole club is very disappointed with how our season ended. Our captain Nathan Jones had a press conference today sharing that disappointment with you. It can be viewed at .......... In due course our coach Simon Goodwin will talk to you about the season and our future. You will receive a booklet on finals tickets which was sent out prior to round 23 to all clubs in contention to ensure that if we made the finals you would have every opportunity to share it with us. Unfortunately we didn't get there so we ask you to recycle it or return it to the club. Thank you for your support this year. How is that bb? Not that hard is it? I've worked with organisations who would have gone into 'damage control' mode: At 6.00pm last Saturday developed a communication plan to customers (in our case members) and press releases to the media, in case WCE won. At 8.00pm on Sunday it would have been activated in time to be in the Monday morning newspapers and in member's email boxes when they woke up. It would have stopped many of the angry phone calls and emails to staff. Not stopped all but a lot of them. The club could then control the public narrative. There is no doubt the Jones press conf was a reaction to the sh...t storm that they got Monday morning. Not one iota of pro activeness! They could have managed it properly and stopped the whole debacle! Not that hard is it!

I am really surprised the club has not made direct contact with members this week leaving them in limbo. Possible news with/from the club: A member has called/emailed them first then received a response. the Jones press conf on the website - how many members saw it? (Not sure about other media like twitter or fb). Did anyone receive an email, sms telling them it was there? Other info sources: Fan forums like this one. Newspaper/radio/TV reports (mainly ridicule) There are 42,000 of us! How many of those members have not accessed one of the above: 20,000? 30,000? They have been left in limbo. Without Demonland to keep me informed, I would have gone spare. I have been waiting for an email from the club all week. Nothing. Have other members received anything from the club (aside from finals ticket booklet)? Rightly or wrongly I am now feeling let down by the club itself. The club has missed the opportunity to get on the front foot and get its own message to members. I can only think they are still in a state of shock and have no idea what to do. The silence is deafening.

I like it all until you mentioned Mason Cox

Don't be seduced by talent. Sylvia had talent. Players like Motlop are a cancer in a club. They will let you down when it matters because they don't put in 100% of the time. We have enough problems with players opting when to put effort in. Effort is 100% not negotiable. That's why players like Kent are doomed. Motlop is the last thing we need.

He's a great player period. A matchwinner, a genuine star and I wished we had him. Like Franklin, he may have been a lot of trouble in the early days, but the Tigers have done a great job in supporting and managing him. Glad he is staying with the Tigers.

If he played for us we would do the same to keep him. He's a top 5 player in the comp and I'm glad he's staying put. It's nice to see players not jumping ship.

We're a work-in-progress. We've gone from having 2 or 3 decent players to now having up to 10-12 good footballers. And about half of those 10-12 good players had less than productive season's because of form/injury. It's true that we need footballers with leg speed but I'd be surprised if the club doesn't try and address that issue. But those types of players have to be able to play the game to a good level too. As previously stated, that's easier said than done when you're trying to evaluate high-school age talent. What stands out is that Hunt & Frost look so much quicker than most on our list. I hope we hang on to Frost for that reason and in turn, coach the lad into being a decent footballer. Watts can be a quick player too but he doesn't use his own pace to advantage. Trying to prise talented quick players from other clubs is difficult too - I mean, it's not as if we'd entertain the thought of letting Hunt go.

I am beginning to suspect that you are in fact, a homesick Matt Taberner

Until TMac went forward I felt we lack a contested marking target up forward. With Hogan missing so many games and a small forward line we tend to lower the eyes and try to kick to smaller targets. Remember when you have 8 players running into the square at bounces it leaves you unable to kick to a contest in the forward line as there are too many 2 on 1's. Very noticeable last week in 1st quarter we kept missing the targets up forward and the ball rebounded out so quickly. We rely heavily on Jesse when he is up forward and Pedo for contested marking. Adelaide take contested marks with Walker and Jenkins as do GWS with Patton, Cameron and Lobb, Geelong rely heavily on Hawkins and moved Harry up forward, Essendon use Hooker and Daniher. Power have Dixon, Westoff, Ryder and Trengove. Sydney run with 2 rucks, one up forward, Reid and a bloke named Franklin. Only Richmond get away with the lone key forward. WE desperately need Weid to come on, Hoges to get in a full season and TMac to play up forward. That will speed up entry into the forward line as you kick to a marking target and crumb of the spoil.

Not at the Melbourne FC. If a consistently good club like Geelong can't get it out of him what chance a mentally week club like ours can.

Ball movement is not about the speed of your players.

Our second half of the year was garbage. Our first quarters were garbage all year. We lost 11 for a net 126 deficit. We kicked 5 goals once. He may well turn out to be a good coach but he isn't yet. Some signiifcant flaws he has been unable to address.

Signed, sealed and remaining - $1.3m for the next 7 years By my reckoning they have 5 players commanding 25% of their salary cap, which is a recipe for potential disaster

However, Bitterness will be offered a new contract.

Of course there isn't, it's not a fact. I wrote in the match selection thread that we'd be pack raped by maggots as soon as I saw Pannell's name in the ump list. He made the big error last week and his penance was? More of the same please. I also went on to say that the AFL believe that 90% of AFL fans are dumb as dog's you know what, and this is the line that keeps coming up. It's total rubbish, almost as factual as a ruck rule stating no straight arm fend offs. After our reaming against Carlton in R22 last year, where the same line was pumped out about 2nd to the contest blah, blah, blah to explain why we were only worth 5 free kicks for the entire game (yep, 5), I did my own analysis. Of all the 'basic' stats the AFL provides, the one with the most correlation to victories is guess what? Free [censored] kicks! Not possessions, not even contested possessions. Not tackles, not clearances. Free [censored] kicks! Last year the AFL wanted a dogs premiership. They got a favourable draw, they had the umps in the back pocket (pats on bum included) and they duly saluted. Next challenge, orchestrate the make up of the final 8. Surely not, too difficult. Nup, 4 out of the 5 states represented, even came down to the last quarter of the last game of the year. Couldn't have planned it better if they'd tried. Or did they? It's pretty obvious from here. Who do they want to win? GWS. They'll win, and I'll go out on a limb and say GWS/Essendon grand final. Now wouldn't that be great for the game. As others have said, it has very little to do with the frees that are paid, it's all about the ones that are missed. Early first quarter yesterday, inside 50 to Pedo for a grab. 2 hands firmly in the back, big push out. Play on. You can tell when the maggots are cheating, there'll be an obvious free kick and they yell out 'play on'. Why are they saying that if there's nothing wrong? Play on from nothing doesn't need to be called. That leads me to my next point. Does anyone know how to get data on frees for inside 50? We just don't get them. The non-free to Tom Mac on 3 quarter time is just another example of an obvious error, but won't be discussed as it wasn't paid as a free. It essentially never happened. We get crucified inside 50 week in week out and I'd guarantee we receive the least i50 frees across the league. Left nut on the line! Have a look at the replay and tell me which umpire was camped out in our forward 50 most of the game. I'll give you a guess. Call me crazy, I don't care. If you're a conformer I don't mind (not referring to you Deev), all I can hope for is to slowly raise awareness of these things. They're happening, it's real. The climate is changing!

McCartin? No thanks.

Ironically, the only hope we have of getting Josh Kelly is if he wants to play with his mate Salem.

He's seemed to have struggled with injuries the last two years. 2016 I think he played a large portion of the season under an injury cloud from my understanding and in 2017 he had an interrupted pre-season and an injury mid-season. I hope we back him in as I think he is talented enough and has shown that at his best he is very good. And I'm not just saying that because he is my username and avatar. Also, he is still only 24 so still has a couple more years before he reaches his peak, think 27-30 yo.

I didn't see the side's steel and composure in the winnable matches against North x2, Freo, Hawthorn or Collingwood. For a player of Lewis experience and credentials, there is no try, only do.

Is it possible he is not eligible to play finals, in that he didn't play enough games?

Off to a 3 week business trip tomorrow OS. For the past few months been wondering whether I should have put if off given our best chance to make finals for over a decade though this is the ideal time for me to go. Then I rationalised to myself that maybe I would be back with us deep into the finals. Turned out I could not have made a wiser decision.

Not me. I am livid and likely to remain so. Garry Lyon in his book says that 1990 season was the one they really rued. Even comp, no standout as evidenced by the fact a fairly ordinary Collingwood side won the flag. Grand Finals are hard to get to and there is no saying we would have made it but 2017 looks like a similar even year and will go down as a massive missed opportunity - and the players and coaching staff have no [censored] idea what level of pressure they needed to bring to games in the second half of the season. Like last years capitulation against Carlton and Geelong, the coaches and on field leaders have failed yet seem powerless to do anything about it. Until it is recgnised and acknowledged the same crap performances will repeat themselves. No way Clarkson or Sheedy would allow such garbage to happen.

Few different posters on BigFooty saying Lever to Pies is a certainty. I'm backing @Chook in Perth over those flogs.

My ideal (realistic) trade scenario would be as follows: Trade One: We send pick 10 & Jack Watts to Carlton for Pick 4 & a 2nd round pick. Trade Two: We trade Pick 4 and a 2nd round pick to GWS for Josh Kelly. Trade Three: We trade 2018 first round pick to Adelaide for Lever Trade Four: We send a 3rd round pick to Collingwood for Mason Cox 2018 team: B: Jetta OMac Lever HB: Hunt TMac Hibberd C: Tyson Oliver Jones HF: Trac Hogan Hannan F: Cox Weid Garlett R: Gawn Kelly Viney Int: Lewis Melk Brayshaw Salem Depth: Pedo, Harmes, Bugg, Frost, JKH, ANB, Smith That team is playing finals.

Yeah 1 thing every 8 weeks

Yes. Think it means that we're not very good at hanging on to the ball. Any number of reasons, even including game plan (e.g. plough on regardless as opposed to chip it round and wait for an opportunity) but with work, presumably it's the kind of thing that can be improved on with more experienced players, more skilled players (though the two go together), and more intent/intensity/concentration over 4 quarters. I know it's something that many here don't like hearing, but we're still a young team. Yes, there are other young teams, but what's hidden amongst that stat is that many of our key players (Viney, Oliver, Hogan, Petracca, most of our backline, even Gawn in ruck-years) are young/inexperienced, and that's where it's falling down at the moment.

So was Garlett when he was a blue bagger, this year he was in AA conversations. Talent sometimes needs a different environment to grow.

If there is someone in your forward half. That's one of our structural issues IMHO

I'd like a bit of confirmation that the stat you've based this thread on is correct. However it's an interesting topic so I'll briefly throw in a couple of alternate - or additional theories. Skills & structure moreso than footspeed. The great Hawthorn sides of recent years relied on precise kicking to get through opposition pressure and get the ball moving. We have too few good users and too many butchers. Our handball efficiency needs to improve significantly as well. Close enough should not be considered good enough. Structurally I think we employ the full court press too much. So if we force a turnover and want to get the ball moving quickly ala Hawthorn of (not so) old, too often there's no option to kick to Also we have too many blokes right in the contest. I hate watching three players tackle an opposition player. You only need one to tackle & another trying to force the ball out. Oliver gets criticised for his one metre handballs but if his target was set up 5 metres away from the scrimmage, we'd be off to the races rather than being tackled and either losing the ball or getting held in a stoppage No-one needs to listen to SEN more. Except for the bit where KB & Dr. Turf go at each other. That is amusing

Horrible! He is weak as [censored]

I find this staggering to be honest. When we played really poorly (in say 5 or 6 games for the entire year), we struggled with our ball movement. The rest of time, it was very often exhilaratingly quick. Strange...

We ended the year equal-4th for quarters won, so we stayed up there really. We won the same number of quarters this year as GWS and Geelong and more than West Coast, Richmond and Essendon. Problem is, we lost too many first quarters, by too much, which meant we spent too many games playing catch-up footy. The Collingwood game is a good example. We won 3 of the 4 quarters but lost the match. I'd hazard a guess at too many turnovers at half-forward. I reckon we get enough of the ball across half-back and through the middle but our chains break down at half-forward. A double-edged sword, too. It robs us of scores, obviously, but half-forward is IMO the worst place to turn it over. We're setup for attack, we give the opposition the ball and they break through our set up and find players on their own in the forward half (compared, say, with turning it over at half-back when we're set up in defence and the defensive 50 is clogged up already).

Lever and an outside mid

I heard David King tonight. Melbourne were last for conversions inside 50 over the last 6 weeks. Also were the most pressured team. I take that to mean the comp has worked Melbourne out. You put pressure on them and they overuse the ball and turn it over. The coaches have a lot to answer for IMO. Didn't get the players 'up'. Couldn't get their game plan happening when we had our best team for the year on the park. They haven't built a game plan that can withstand finals type pressure. That is a major flaw. Goodwin has escaped scrutiny because he is a first year coach but there are real danger signs fo us.

I have a Latvian background - I can tell you we are indeed good! ??

1.3 million a year for Dusty, thats classic Richmond. Look hes a great player, but hes one chopsticks episode away from disaster. Either that or some bikey drama.

IMO supporters who claim Vince and/or Wagner should be delisted have no cred. Wagner is sponsored by Demonland FCS! Vince is a recent B&F who brings much more to the team than the occasional turnover!!! I don't have time to list the data... so I guess that makes me a [censored] with an opinion!

Interesting point. I go one further. It was self belief and trust of your fellow players. Its a little be raw and undefined in nature but well understood. Today EVERYTHING is drilled. There's groupthink. There the Leading Teams type of "insert phrase of choice" . Its a corporate cohesion of sorts....but not natural and organic. Its what your TOLD to do not what intuitively drives you. This synthetic belief falls apart because in reality...its not real. Its a practiced mantra not a 'non-negotiable' fron the player's core. The best teams allow individuals to rise to their abilities whilst encouraging their team mates to do likewise but not in a 'one instruct' fits all manner. I agree...very much about between the ears.