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This arguing about whether it was a good experience or not when most of you don't know what you're talking about is getting to me worked up. How can you argue for the agaisnt when the players and the coaches have said they thought it was 1) the hardest thing any of them had ever done in their football careers (Including Lewis who was done some crazy stuff over the years) but 2) most believe was extremely beneficial to their personal development therefore the team development. I have a direct source to the mindset of the playing group, and I can tell you for absolute certainty this camp was indeed a good experience for the club.

In junior footy ages 11 -15, I was often asked to do 1-on-1 kicking training with kids having difficulties. We focused on 4 things: 1. Holding the ball. 2. Moving ball from hand release to kick. 3. Body movement through the line of the kick (often forgotten or neglected). The run up, follow through etc... 4. Differneces in set kick versus on the run. But one of the main things to understand is to gauge the sense of eye-hand coordination in different kids. James Hird let the ball go from very high with both hands but his kicking was very, very good. Buddy Franklin's line through the ball is horrible. But the eye hand coordination was so good they could coordinate their basic flaws into an effective kicking action. As long as they drop the ball in its almost stationary drop-punt position, hits the foot at that angle without deviation, and they kick through the line, it will work. Hogan's action aften results in the ball making contact with the foot when the seams of the footy are not parallel to the angle of his leg. Often, the seams are still moving across ways. Result - the classic shank. His bent arm in point of release comes from how he holds the ball and drops it far too close to his body. Best goal kicking action - try Barry Hall or Taylor Walker. Best kicking action on the run - Gary Ablett. He hunches over and almost places it on his foot. MFC's best - Jack Watts. His kicking action is a training manual. And for what it is worth, Dean Cox of WCE had an amazing kicking action for a tall man. At that height, there is a huge gap between ball drop and kick and yet he couod coordinate it really well.

I used to use Wayne Carey and Shane Warne as examples of a tragic heroes when teaching Macbeth. Hird has proven to be a much better example - right down to Lady McHird.

He'd have played ahead of Rhys Palmer, Jacob Hopper and probably even Ryan Griffen in the Prelim last year against the Dogs. The Giants get Deledio, Stevie J (suspension) and a preseason in to some quality kids including Hopper, Kennedy and 3 first rounders so the competition would be tight. But I'd back Dom to hold the 4th inside midfield spot behind Ward, Coniglio and Shiel and ahead of a pretty broken down Griffen and the kids. i generally try to stay pretty measured about players in my training reports because unless they are young guys getting their bodies and confidence to the level required (Hunt last year, hopefully Brayshaw currently) or have had a drastic shift in injury or approach the improvement over a preseason is usually small. This injury sucks for Dom because what I was seeing at training was a guy who had significantly improved.

It's been discussed here before that a best 22 is fast becoming an esoteric concept as the list gets more depth to it. Billy Stretch doesn't seem to get much love externally and Wagner's debut year has obviously been dismissed as has Frost's late flourish. Not to mention Harmes' current form on the track. And that's prior to debating Pedersen ahead of Weideman and whether Bugg gets a look in over Vandenberg or Melksham and whether Joel Smith can be a smoky, Maynard or Hannan or Kielty or Tim Smith step up etc. The major point though is that the writer talks about the key issue for Goodwin being shallow depth after the core four midfielders he nominates. I think many of the so called experts will read it this way and may well be surprised. More importantly for us, we already know that Stretch's, Harmes' and Wagner's best is to be reckoned with and this should mean that whoever's on the park is performing.

It's possible to look at this situation in different ways. James Hird is a human being, a husband and a father who has attempted to take his life. In that respect, I think most other reasonable human beings should be looking at how he can be best helped to overcome whatever it is that brought him to that place. If he had a broken leg, it wouldn't be hard for us to understand that he needs proper medical attention, possibly an operation, followed by rest and recuperation. Mental illness is somewhat more complex but I see no reason why people need to go into whether or not he "brought all of this on himself" - we simply don't know and it's irrelevant at this point in time. In my view, the general community, the football fraternity and in particular the Essendon Football Club and its supporters should all be working together to help him in any possible way they can which at this stage is not to do or say too much, to leave it to the health professionals and let him know they have everyone's full support in his quest to get better. That's what I would expect we should be doing in the case of a broken leg and this is no different. I've always maintained that Essendon played this saga out very poorly. Hird was part of that but we can't even say definitively whether it was the factor that brought him to the place he currently occupies. However, I don't think the recriminations and finger pointing in the media from his father, lawyer and some Essendon supporters and others playing the blame game is going to help anyone - neither Hird, the Essendon Football Club or the sport itself.

Those tecord attempts have regulated breaks, paricularly to ensure no mental stress Here is an amusing anecdote for you McQueen on this type of exercise, I took part in one years ago in UK military, had very little sleep over a week, we had a 'simulated' attack with wounded etc we raced up to one 'wounded' and one of our guys in his tired and emotional state, his training kicked in, ripped out his morphine jab and 'stabbed' a perfectly healthy guy with it in the thigh, said gentlemen not impressed but wasn't feeling much as they carted him off

I wouldn't bet on that.

Jonesey's last best experience was playing in a Final back in 2006. He's hardly had much to benchmark from to now call this one of the best.

It probably won't 'Wiseblood' as I'm not sure how you could measure the success or failure of something like this. We have one measure of failure, Tyson's injury. Success will be more about the 'vibe'...

Oliver is a clearance midfielder, there's every chance he will start getting alot of attention around the contest to get him off balance to minimise his influence particurly late in games when he is tired. This could just be as simple training him to deal with it.

I believe it was a brick not a block

I don't think the Clarry situation is a punishment, he is an aggressive bugger, just think he takes on the wrong people at training Yesterday he gave Nev a shove as he was matched up on him, Nev then strong armed him in the drill and Clarry ended up on the deck Similar to the Vince situation the other week, he also tried to rough up Jonesy a few weeks back, wrong The only exception is Clarry and Gawn, that's on any time they get near each other in drills Clarry keeps coming back for more which is great to watch

I only wear New Balance. Initially it was because they sponsored MFC, but overall NB deliver a quality product.

Step 1: Take cousin to enough Melbourne games that he falls in love with Melbourne Step 2: Tell Boyfriend he's out if he doesn't get interested Step 3: Get them both to buy membership Step 4: World domination

Yep. Hardly been on since the end of the season. Too busy, and quite a bit of forum fatigue after over a decade of posting, reading and admining several times a day every day. Hoping the new season brings me some new energy for this place - I sure as hell am beside myself with excitement at the coming season and need some fellow tragics to share it with!

I hope we are not going to play unsociable football. Weve taken years to build up an image of being absolute wimps.

God I love the Lewis trade. Demand success, every session, every game. If someone is falling short pull them up on it, the "right" way for that person of course. Brilliant! About [censored] time too.

I love Jack Grimes. Very proud that he played for this club. Very relieved he played 100 games for us.

Why is Vince anywhere near the backline? And training with the backs to this day. He killed it in the midfield and won the B&F. He's been ordinary at best in the backline. We've missed his shut down ability, accumulating, and instinct for timely goals when he's in the middle. His turnovers hurt more when he's in defence too. With the additions of Hibberd, Melksham and a fit Salem, it boggles my mind that we're persevering with Vince down back.

What would he know.

The thing about Hogan is he's a beautiful field kick. His goal kicking only bothers me because the low margin for error in his style means it can become a mental game. First year - no mental pressure - had a great conversion rate Second year - misses a few in preseason, the media catch wind and blame it on his run up (which really wasn't the issue), the mental demons circle - poor accuracy rate I imagine smoothing out his run up and converting plenty of goals early in the year could take away the mental concerns and see him finish the year with a good accuracy rate, but my concern is if it starts to go south and becomes a media topic then you end up in that Joe Daniher/Travis Cloke stage of the pressure building with every kick. I hope they get his technique right and confidence set before the start of the season. Same goes for Petracca who is far worse, but is also unlikely to have as many set shots on goal.

Well for one I was in the ADF for 4 years and I've done sleep dep camps so I definitely do know what I'm talking about But I've actually spoken to someone in great length who actually did the camp and I'm telling you for a fact that is was a lot more extreme then anyone here has ever done, unless they were once elite athletes

I cant get over that story as to how Salem got concussed... How unlucky does a bloke have to get??

I wonder what his actual condition is, what the true nature of his illness is . Depression is indeed a nasty passenger. Ill state quite plainly i have no time, no sympathy at all for Hird. As far as im concerned this is all of his making, all his current malaise would be as a result of decisions he has made and indeed thrust upon others all out of ego and maniacal delusion. He had choices. He wears them now. For the sake of his kids i do hope he can get his life back to some place where he can be something of a parent. Only for them would i have a concern. This Saga has come to the place where those who sought to deceive are being trapped in webs of their own mischief. Danks wont be far off

As it is the team's senior leaders who are into him: Gawn, Jones and Lewis I would say 'yes'! Letting him know what they expect and what to expect if he doesn't follow the rules. A good lesson to learn and learn it early. Its these little things that show how far our leadership team has come. A far cry from the days when players didn't feel like training so cancelled it (related in Jim Styne's book).

No pronounced stutter that I noticed.

Another 3 years takes the sponsorship to a continuous 9 years. Another tick for off-field stability and financial stability! Now we just need the back of jumper sponsor!

The path to redemption is paved with brutal raw honesty.

This is pretty much what I was going to write, so I won't repeat it them. Again, it was a fairly casual session so I didn't read too much into the drills. Additional observations (some of these are hardly groundbreaking I will admit): McCartney was a doing a drill with Garlett where he was working on handpassing from up high (like when being tackled), something that Sydney and the Bulldogs have mastered Tim Smith's kicking action is quite awkward but reasonably effective, Weideman's action is fluid and very effective Jetta seemed to be in every drill (did a few midfield drills which was great to see), he looks extremely fit and was really harsh on himself if he missed a target, such a natural leader Harmes looks very fit, took some lovely grabs on the marking bag and has serious explosiveness and power to his game now Lewis' kicking skills made a lot of other players look second-rate Brayshaw and Oliver looked to be moving well from what I saw of the drills they were in, I saw Gawn give Oliver a huge shove at one stage Tom McDonald having shoulder surgery really is unfortunate because he needs all the upper body strength he can get, he still had a few brain fade and skill error moments Maynard is a good size, still feeling his way into it Don't write-off Mitch White, I thought he would have a better 2016 than he did but his kicking is just so good I haven't seen the stats but I feel like overall we are quite a short team, and seeing the players up close for the first time in a while confirmed this There was quite a bit of emphasis on kicking with the non-dominant foot when forced (quick kicks while under pressure) to which was good to see I'm not alone here, but I really like the look of Joel Smith, his kicking needs work but he is a good size and moves very well Viney was practicing his goals on the run, similar to what he kicked on the Gold Coast in 2016

Just a few more observations (I got there a bit late): - Jayden Hunt is just oozing class in everything he does - kicked a 55m torp during some casual goal kicking practice towards the end, as well as others on the run from just inside 50 - Petracca was having major challenges with his goal kicking from around 50 and was the butt of several jokes. Some of his kicks were outright shanks. Nathan Jones queried whether he's holding the ball too angled and JKH chimed in with the ball drop possibly being too high. - JKH comfortably kicked a drop punt set shot from outside 50 and looks to have improved all facets of his game. I hope he gets a run at it. - Pedo and Garlett in running drills for the 2nd half - Declan and Bull two of the last to leave - PJ in deep but relaxed conversation with Todd Viney and Simon Goodwin at the end - Salem really working intently on his midfield craft Will top this post up if I think of any others.

I think everybody's these days RTG, there is never any grey with Macca, no he comes over for a chat before the start of each session, always gives myself and a couple of the other regulars something, today was the mental side of the players, he quoted Lewis at a meeting saying as a playing group we were still 'too nice' when it came to driving each other and setting the bar consistently higher

2+hours craft session Joel Smith learning bodywork against Maxy and Pencil fun to watch Hogan 25 minutes goalkicking practice Maynard doing stoppage work, bullock Nev putting Clarry on his arse, not impressed Watts and Harmes trying to outdo each other on the marking drill with the bag Watching Macca and Jeff Garlett practicing goal sneak skills

Good to see sponsors actually want to stick with us now. Oh and we have found another sports person to give a melbourne jumper to. Canadian tennis player Milos Raonic. Hope he realises he is standing next to a superstar.

You can have the tinfoil hat on if you wish, but our skipper is a fairly plain talking bloke, and if he rated the experience then I believe him.

in fairness, while the comments are all good analysis, we shouldn't judge too much just from one photo each

Maybe they could have a quiet word with Josh Kelly to join them!

You're reading my mind 'Nasher', couldn't agree more... Let me add that it's also difficult to nearly impossible for the almost good enough's to become good enough unless they get consistent game time at the top level. It's a bit of a catch 22. It's why we get games into good kids and a big part of why Oscar got games last year...he needed to learn his craft with & against the best. Players that spend too much time in the 2nd tier struggle to move up. Also why Weideman will play a lot of games this year and Oliver won't see Casey again unless coming back from injury... There is a myth about Clarko leaving players at Box Hill to develop, all his good ones play a lot of top level games early in their careers... Players like ANB & JKH need to get good game time to improve otherwise they go on to be the Michies & Newtons at another club if they are lucky enough to get a 2nd chance. Kennedy is this years Michie/Newton, needs to crack a game or in danger of being moved on...

The keys to a good set kick are the ball drop and the timing. The ball drop can be taught and improved but the timing is innate. Jack's ball drop is superior because he guides the ball onto his foot before the release Jesse's ball drop can be clumsy as the release is too early so that it is more of a drop than a guide. Repetitive ball drop exercises using short kicks can improve the ball drop. Practicing the ball drop with one hand requires a later release and, when using the non-preferred side, is a good exercise to develop non-preferred foot kicking. Watch Chunka when he kicks with his left foot - his left hand mimics his right hand. Practice makes perfect. The difference between good and not-so-good timing is apparent in the aesthetics of the kick and in the distance achieved. Notice how all reliable good kicks control the ball onto the foot and kick sweetly over long distance with little apparent effort. No one was better than Bernie Quinlan. Size doesn't matter - shorties can kick as long as biggies if they have a good ball drop and good timing. For hurried kicks and kicks on the run there is another key - the feel of the ball in the hands. Some players have an innate ability to feel the ball in their hands, instinctively adjust the ball for the best ball drop and deliver a good kick. For the others, every kick can be a lottery. In addition to Jack Watts, Cam Pedersen and Christian Salem have a lovely style and can deliver quality reliable kicks. Worth studying.

Love this from Macca: McCartney on pre-season: Part One A couple of delicious quotes: "............... the group is so willing to learn and receptive to getting better, it's brilliant to come to work every day with them" and "................almost every player has taken another step forward with their learning and development. We won't lack for talent, we won't lack for preparation and we are really confident that we won't lack for intensity. The Club has entered a really exciting phase."

James Hird is not one of my heroes, and if I saw him walking down the street, I would probably cross the street to avoid him. But like others I feel sorry for his children and family for what he has put them through, and I wish him the speediest of recoveries. It is one thing to thoroughly disagree with what he has done and how he has done it; it is quite another to wish him harm. Get well soon, James Hird.

Tell boyfriend no bedroom access he will be a trident member by the end of the day

Not a huge difference but a noticeable and important one. Hogan drops the ball too close to his body and then has to lean back and thrust his way in to his kicks or kick across the ball as he likes to do with his field kicking. That takes away momentum and distance and makes it harder to find a consistent rhythm. This photo of Watts is a better one to compare to the first image of Hogan and you can see the ball is out infront of his plant leg and that he'll swing through it with all his weight going forward. We've made a heap of progress with out coaching but I'm still surprised we don't have a specialist kicking coach with a biometric background.

Its a NQR thread thrown up as though it holds water. The premise is flawed but as the OP hoped some bit. Who ever doesn't make it will be dropped...let go. They become irrelevant. Whoever wants to add to the club will try harder. If they fail, again...let go. The whole thread is arze about. But hey have fun lol

A few shots from today with more to come if we make it along to this evening's session with the women's team (edit: forget that last bit...women's was yesterday and next is tomorrow...damnit!).

I wonder how many players who leave because they can't break in to their existing side go on to be true AFL grade players? Sure you get the odd Ted Richards or Josh Kennedy, but there are also a lot of Viv Michie, Ben Newton types who excel in the second tier but can't quite crack it. I've often referred to those types as "almost good enough". This thread is basically asking who our almost good enoughs are. AFL lists are subject to enough injuries and form that any player actually good enough should get an opportunity.

You accused me of creating stereotypes and caricatures. Ive been as eloquent as possible on an iPhone4 with a cracked screen. Numerous red herrings have been posted whenever I might actually have a surprising truth to add to the discussion. Im not obsessed with anything or concerned about winning the debate . You guys win. White invader bad Muslim invader good. No grey areas. Im going to get a souvlaki.

Gone are the days of the lumbering ruckman, athletic,moves well, nice neat skills, didn't look out of place JKH was bouncing around the whole session, he is not joking about his increased speed, gone up a notch

Power clubs - think Cats, Dorks and, quite a few years ago, Brisbane, had players in the 22 - 30 best range who would have walked into most other teams. They mostly managed to keep these players. This is the type of culture we must develop to become a success.

What's a worry is we thought we were on a winner back then, but it's different this time. It's not like.the other 12 times...