Leaderboard

Just on Oliver the couple of games o saw the bushies play obviously he dominated. He definitely was alot pudgy compared to what he is now and even back then he had a good burst of speed when he could win a stoppage and just burst out of the contest. For a kid that was carrying weight i was quite surprised and impressed he actually had decent pace. Now that he is trimmed right down and toned up i expect his pace to really go up a notch now to the point where who knows maybe it might be Dangerfield like.. A 187cm 86kg Beast of a midfielder bursting out of packs is something i have seriously craved for a long time.

Now Fahey goes whack, whack, whack to the AFL! http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-would-become-laughing-stock-of-world-sports-if-it-separated-from-wada-20160124-gmd9tb.html Fahey: "I would think they [the AFL] would become the laughing stock of sport around the world if they [separated themselves]..."Why are they different to 679 other associations who believe you shouldn't cheat in sport?"...Fahey warned the AFL against following the example of major US sports..."They are privately owned, and as a result of being privately owned, they make their own rules," he said. So many politicians supporting players or AFL withdrawl or saying nothing has been nauseating. Its about time someone with some authority spoke up. Well done, Mr Fahey.

So I came onto his post expecting to read about Clayton Oliver...I've just read a whole bunch of dribble about Cotchin, Deledio and Selwood. Sheesh.

So, can anyone on this forum tell me (and I'm sure other frustrated readers) anything about the progress of Clayton Oliver?

An improved version of Mark Ricciuto? Nice to see someone with some realistic expectations on the young kid.

Cotchin is better than Oliver ?

According to the AFL Prospectus Champion data players at TAC who do not win enough of there own ball tend not to make it at AFL despite their Junior Comp disposal numbers. They said Toumpas and Morton were relatively low 'win own ball' juniors despite high numbers. Our recruiters at the time were obviously not aware of this. Since those days its no coincidence that its largely been ball winners. Oliver is a ball winning beast. Evidently Parish can win his own ball as well. By reports Oliver has more pace than Parish and also more size.

sooo... Clayton anyone?

another factor is the propaganda factor. The media/commentators talk about the gun players of the bigger clubs like they are deities and never, ever do our players get shown the same type of worship. This happens because there are simply more supporters n the media of the bigger clubs and they know that the best thing for them to do in their job is to pander to the bigger supporter bases. Because we have been a pathetic wasteland for so long, nobody is bothering to pander to us. This influences public opinion because basically the public are stupid and can be easily influenced. Absolutely if Jones was at Hawthorn or Collingwood he would have a much better reputation from the public.

I think we saw exactly what Selwood would have been like in a crappy team last season - he regularly lost his rag and was soundly beaten multiple times, notably by Viney in our win down there He has been great, but has had a significant advantage on others of similar quality.

Currently, the single best analysis of the CAS decision. A must read for anyone following this thread. And a few other people as well - yes, looking at you Peter Gordon.

Top 15 questions answered This bloke has a fairly sound knowledge of the situation. A law student, I believe.

Whilst I understand Oliver's skill sets being compared to Dangerfield, I think he may evolve into something more like Mark Ricciuto...with a little more poise. Can you imagine?? I genuinely feel we have the makings of the midfield we've been waiting for; Oliver Brayshaw Petracca Viney Tyson Salem VDB Yes we've been down this road before, but this is different. They're each clean / polished / ferocious / unrelenting / driven / thrive on the contest / love body contact - and THAT is something we haven't had. They're coming through together and will be driving the momentum shift, all with a reasonable target to kick to and an emerging mobile tap ruckman. I can smell it.

It is ultra impressive how quickly he has changed his body shape... check out how pudgy he was in the first half of 2015 in TAC cup games , then check the latest MFC training pics. The kid seems like a real workhorse, and once he got a sniff that he might be good enough to get drafted he grabbed it with both hands and went to another level. Very exciting prospect.

Nathan is not Robinson Crusoe there; the 2 players mentioned in recent posts, Cotchin & Selwood are putrid when tagged. I'm hoping they're much better than that or we're going nowhere.

Disagree. We are now doing what the good sides do, giving talented young players time, to develop their bodies and game.

I'm almost certain none of Selwood, Pendles or Fyfe would have been able to drag us over the line for a win in any of the years from 2011-13 such was the state of our list and club. Draft an 18 year old Selwood to the MFC in his draft year and I can guarantee he wouldn't be seen as the player he is today. Draft Nathan Jones to Geelong at the top of their power and I can guarantee he'd be valued more highly as a player amongst wider AFL community. Regardless of all of that, the 'star' debate is a waste of time. It's like arguing on the best Ice Cream flavour. Everyone has their own flavour. It's subjective. Not only that, many other variables come to play. For example, the Selwood Vs Jones debate. Selwood will obviously possess the better stats in almost every category due to playing in such a successful team during such a successful era. Jones the complete opposite. His stats even during his best years individually will suffer due to playing in a far less successful and competitive side over such a long period. That is one example. Geelong have suffered since the departure of Ablett and ageing and retirements of midfielders Bartel, Johnson, Kelly and Corey. Without them, Selwood hasn't been able to win games off his own boot and his form really wasn't that consistently good this year. Selwood and Jones are in my mind very similar in playing style, attributes as well as height and weight and if we're isolating them as players, I don't think it's fair to say that Selwood is better than Jones or vice versa. However if we were comparing Fyfe to Jones, or Pendlebury to Jones then it's a different story. They're very different players. Finishing on Oliver vs Jones - Comparing the two from the age of 18 I'd say that it's obvious Oliver has more to offer in terms of attribute diversity, however it remains to be seen whether he has the application and will to get the best out of himself in the way that Jones has been hellbent on doing his entire career. Like ProDee, I'd hope and expect under our now rock-solid environment and development team that Oliver will be better player than Jones.

It's not a fact, and even putting it in capitals won't make it a fact. It's an assumption on your part. None of us know what discussion took place around taking Melksham.

let's hope he's not a clayton's midfielder

Meandering= 1 page. We are now into 3 pages of taking about Selwood and Cotchin in a thread marked, 'Clayton Oliver'.

Really....

As usual you take a simplistic look at things that will suit your agenda. The fact is there's not a big enough difference in their key stats to clearly say one is way better. And no, numbers don't "usually go up", especially if you're talking about a 28 year old. But aside from that, you're forgetting about context, as usual. As you said, Cotchin was in a "superior" team, meaning he had far more support, help with tags, better structures and coaching, more wins, all things that would help you perform better. Jones has almost identical stats over a longer period of time in a team where he has been the sole target of opposition midfields, has had 0 support, terrible coaching and far less wins. On top of that, Cotchin (as many others have mentioned) is not much of a leader and there's no way in hell he would have been able to carry a club every week the way Jones has/does. Also, you seem to be changing your argument to Cotchin is more "talented". No one will disagree with that, but that's not what you were saying. You were saying you would take him ahead of Jones, and there is no way in hell Cotchin would have done anywhere near as much in the red and blue as he has for the Tigers. You yourself say Cotchin has been "disappointing over the last 3 years" which at 25 is the peak of his career, and at a time the Tigers were meant to be challenging. Clearly he has struggled with leadership impacting his game, whereas Jones has elevated his game since becoming captain. Cotchin may be more naturally talented, but Jones has shown the type of leadership, heart, character and determination that you would want for a team in our situation. But you know, if you're happy with a captain who by your own admission has been disappointing since becoming one then it shows how little understanding you actually have of the game.

I see where you are coming from, but i am backing a recruiting team who has hardly missed a beat the last few years to have judge Weiderman higher then whatever our 2016 prospect might have been, if we make the finals or even go close, pick 7 could have been pick 10 next year, which might not seem like much but in the top 10 in the draft, it's pretty significant i reckon, especially with the player we got. and you can't run that off as a FACT, how do you know they didn't do any homework? you don't think it's possible they knew this was a risk and decided he was worth it? Roos clearly rates the kid, as does Goodwin.

Yes. You're pointing out what the stats say and the accolades he's received. I'm arguing that much of this is to do with the environment he found himself in once drafted, the group of leaders he played under from a young age, the quality coaches that developed him and the immediate success that surrounded him at Geelong which brings about an increase at every emotional and feeling level. Confidence and motivation. Two things he would never have had to think twice about from his development years at Geelong. Yes he was a higher pick than Nathan and perhaps he is a bit better than Jones in some areas. But the gap isn't as big as what you make out. Put them head-to-head in a couple of training drills and it'd be more even than you think.

Looks like someone's hammered the bong this arvo.

I'd take Jones. Jones game has improved where as Cotchins has stalled. Plus I believe Cotchin has had better support around him. Jones for me. Delidio is another story.

He didn't say that all Saty.. i dont speak for him but i agree that at the moment we are still all too reliant on Nathan Jones as our go to man and someone who is just going to win us games. We are NOT going to be playing finals if that is still the case. For us to become a good finals team we need the likes of Viney Brayshaw Tyson and Salem over the next few 'years' to really step up to the point where they are getting hard tags instead of Jones. Remember Shane Crawford? For some many years he was always their number 1 midfielder during those first couple of years of Clarkson era. He was the inspirational skipper that was always getting the number 1 tag and Towards the end of his career in fact 2008, Hawthorn had a good spread of up and coming A graders in Mitchell Hodge Lewis that they were able to take more control of the midfield leaving Crawford to play more on a half forward and rotating off the bench and still able to make a contribution. This is the dream scenario for me in 3 years time when we are playing finals that Tyson Viney Brayshaw Oliver Salem and Petracca will be all borderline A graders and starting on ball line up that they are able to push Jones out to playing more up forward rotating off the bench and still having an influence exactly like Crawford did.

The best thing that happened to him is after starting to get all the praise second half of 2015 Goldstein then ripped him a new one and showed what the top level requires. I feel that has stuck with him and has driven him to go to the next level in 2016.

Big

Irrelevant. You sign a contract you live with it. That's how it works in sports with guaranteed money. No one complains that Angus Brayshaw was underpaid last year based on the set draftee deal. For what it's worth Pedersen came from North on a 3 year deal and apparently for good money as Collingwood were keen on him as well. That deal has since expired and he'll likely now be on a 1 year deal that recognises his value as an ok mature back up player. Dawes has a year left of his 4 year contract and at the end of the year he'll probably be offered (or not offered) some kind of deal that reflects his value in the game as well. The AFL salary cap is 10million per year with 44 players, that's 227,000 per player, given a lot of that are rookies and kids who just make basic wage the average wage for a senior player is well over 300k. If Dawes is on 500k he hasn't exaclty bled us dry.

Way more than above rjay in fact it might be more approiate to say "in the basement"

Over their careers, Cotchin gets the nod. We're talking about present day, assumedly. Right now I'm picking Jones and it's not a difficult choice.

+ vandenBerg and Stretch. i know we shouldn't get overexcited about our youngsters, but this crop make it very hard not to.

+ Salem, Viney and Tyson if you don't mind

The real comparison is what we could have got at 25 in a particularly weak draft with not much talent outside the top 10. No matter who it was it's doubtful we would have seen much of them at that pick in their first year. So then you look at their untried potential in their second season against a proven, hardened AFL player, who Goodwin and McCarthy have first hand experience of and see unrealised potential. I admit I didn't understand this trade but I'm prepared to admit these two might know a thing or two more than me about players they have coached.

Run an eye over their 2014 stats when Jones was physically unhindered. He smashes Cotchin. If Jones' body is 100%, he is destined for his best season to date which will again surpass lego hair. No way known would I be swapping Jonesy for that vastly overrated plodder. Superior skills? 20 metre kicks and one two handball receives, maybe. I've rarely known a player to accumulate as many touches while causing so little damage. Cotchin shot out of the blocks early in his career but much like Murphy has regressed rather than taking the next step. Right now it's Jones every day of the week for me. 2016 is going to be his year. Great to hear our boy Clayton is already looking the part at training (feeble attempt to get things back on track).

he certainly hasn't got better kicking skills, lucky to make 40 metres on a good day

A midfield of Gawn-Brayshaw-Petracca-Oliver will give opponents nightmares in a few years. I'm happy with our decision.

The Dawes/Pedersen debate has been going on for the better part of two years, and while Pedersen is no gun, I am yet to see a strong argument as to why Dawes deserves a game more than him, other than that he's able to bring the ball to ground (unable to hold an overhead mark). Stuie and others post about supposed "#PedoMyths" going around, yet the argument that most make is not that Pedersen is a star, rather, he offers more on the field than Dawes. From watching both of them play, I know which of the two I prefer, and I'm yet to see any proof (statistical or otherwise) that Dawes offers more than Pedersen. It seems that what Team Gravity and Team Pedersen can agree upon is that neither of the two are likely to be part of our future success, and the sooner Weideman/Hulett/King/Frost come on, the better off the MFC will be.

I suspect anyone under the age of 40 (or even 50) may not have heard of the term "Collingwood six footer". Saying "Collingwood 183 centimetre-er" doesn't have the same ring to it, either.

Get back to me in 2021.

This is what I expect we'll see, not necessarily what I want to see. Jetta-Dunn-Garland Salem-McDonald-Bugg Brayshaw-Jones-Tyson Petracca-Dawes-Kent Watts-Hogan-Garlett Gawn-Vince-Viney IC: vandenBerg-Kennedy-Stretch-Frost

Ive seen you say this many times on here. I've been saying for years, that the world is full to the brim, with incredibly stupid people. Try working in a coal mine, where the average income, is around twice the average i.q of the workers. If you want to fit in, just add "ay" to the end of every sentence. As for the argument about Jones/Cotchin, haven't people, since the beginning of time, been saying that the greats should be judged by their influence in finals? Compare Cotchin with Hodge. Sometimes raw talent cant overcome whats lacking inside the head. Thats not to say that Cotchin isn't more talented than Jones. I just dont think the gap is all that big.

BBO you do know your not allowed to have two accounts in this forum?

Tyson, Vanders, Jetta, Kent the big difference makers, maybe Petracca as well. Howe and Cross come out from that day though. The scary thing is how many GWS had out, with Mumford the biggest impact player but also several other class players. The last time we had a big conversation about depth was after our round 1 win last year when Dawes came back in for JKH. The depth was somewhat of an illusion. Yet we managed to beat Geelong in Geelong without several of our best and with the likes of Bail, M Jones and Spencer playing. I think our list is at the stage where we should always have options in terms of guys coming in and playing a role, what we need to have to progress is enough of a spread of quality players so that on any game day we have at least a few players making an impact and a spread of reliable players who get the job done most weeks. We always focus on who will fill the bottom 5 spots each week when the reality is we've been let down by not having quality in the top 5 and certainly not having enough depth in the top 15.

Rubbish. I had an opinion that differed and responded in kind. I wasn't rude about it. Your post, however, added nothing to the conversation either, so go ahead and sort yourself out.

If he's an average player, you can't argue that losing him for a season will make a great difference to the team. If you are arguing that pick #25 was wasted on him, you have no evidence until he plays and we see what he can do for the team. Until then it's just your supposition.

The issue I have with this rule about top up players is that the AFL has gone out and given the so far exclusive right to Essendon to search out these players. This gives the perpetrator of the offence, a head start over the other clubs who have lost players but were not offenders which puts them at a disadvantage. Moreover, the decision to not take into consideration the fact that Essendon will potentially have 12 players coming back in 2017 as a factor in their draft position is also unfair given that it will likely put the perpetrators at a further advantage over rival clubs. It really is outrageous.

I personally don't think there was anyone else out there, apart from someone unrealistic like Clarkson, who could have gotten us to this point right now. We were so far behind the rest that we were in danger of become irrelevant for a very, very long time. Roos has changed that immensely. He has turned over the list, the club has drafted and traded well and we are just beginning to see the fruits of his labour. Saying that Roos is'phoning in' his third year is a little harsh but, at the same time, he should be handing the reigns over to Goodwin more so once the pre-season of 2017 rolls around we hit the ground running. I understand the negativity, although you did go negative very quickly on most things these days, but I don't think there is anyone else out there who could have made the impact that Roos has over just a couple of seasons.