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give me 22 rod grinters I will be a happy man. that face instilled menace. however, the guy could actually play some seriously good footy. great overhead mark for his size, could kick, and had some pace.

Couple of quotes from Roos from today's press conference: " Clearly against the four best teams (when we're down on form) it's a problem." "My hope at this stage is that there'll be a lot more consistency - we've improved a lot at the top end." "It's just in those moments of pressure when players don't have trust in their coaches and teammates that we lose that consistency." "That "us vs them" mentality of giving players a spray is 30 years old now." "Every game's important, every game's an important experience... good teams play well every week - it's an opportunity to get better." "It gets back to us as a team playing good team footy... we've got to play well as a team to give our forwards the best chance." "The best way (to stop teams getting a run-on) is to score yourself and get the ball around the stoppages." "We were disappointed with our performance last week and clearly we're going to need to respond to that." "Most players are playing for their careers through the course of the season - it's not something that needs to be dramatised."

I'll go against the grain here and say again that I believe he's expendable. One of those senior boys who have been subjected to some some very dark years but hasn't been able to break through it like Nathan Jones. At times I question his physicality and intensity. At times I question his decision making and kicking. In my opinion he epitomises the MFC player who drops their head when the chips are down and plays for himself rather than the team. That's not to say he doesn't compete. I'll explain. When I think of the group of senior players who have been with us since 04 or 05, none of them have any real physical presence except for Nathan Jones (and Dunn on occasions) . Garland especially never shows any sort of aggression onfield, no flair, no willingness to instil any sort of intimidation into opposition players and no willingness to lead the team when we are falling away. I understand that it's partly to do with his personality type, but in my eyes it's just another contributing factor as to why we continue to fall away so quickly during games. I'm not talking about getting into jumper punching rubbish. I'm taking about playing with a strong physical and aggressive presence. Of course the same can be said for a handful of others, but the thread is about Garland and his contract situation. Again I think it's important to look at the overall picture of our list. How many of these guys can we continue to carry. Because we are carrying. I'd trust the FD to strike again and pick up someone who would be of greater value to us going forward than what Garland gives the MFC in its current state. It's hard for supporters to completely disconnect from emotional ties to players who have been at the club for years. But the reality of the situation is that the club is carrying senior players who are not able nor willing to break the shackles and demand more of themselves or those around them. I don't want senior blokes stepping down from leadership positions. That's never a good sign. We have a great young group of players who do possess those traits I'm talking about. Viney, Hogan, Salem and Brayshaw. But we need more of it coming from the 27+ year olds. And we're not getting it.

I don't know that he's blaming the past per se. It seems to me that he's just searching for the answer to why this group does such an impressive job of dropping its collective bundle. It's like a switch, we seem to go from good to awful in the blink of an eye. I take Roos' comments about mental scarring to be just speculating about why this happens. I don't think he has the answer. He has another season and a half to figure it out.

I think he thinks you should shut up.

Damaged goods??? Some of these GWS kids experienced 100 point loss after 100 point loss over a 3-4 year period. They certainly seem to have bounced back okay. We can make all the excuses we like. At the end of the day, the overall list and some of the players on it are just not good enough at this stage.

I don't think anyone is in the position to say how much he's worth; you can't do that unless you've got other players to compare it to. I really hope he stays, though. Not entirely sure why, but a vote of no confidence from Col would mean a lot more to me than it did from Frawley, Rivers, Moloney and Sylvia. Perhaps it's because it's because of his introverted, thoughtful personality type.

a keeper for me.

Just a heads up... saw it tweeted a couple of minutes ago.

Your constant bagging and irrational posting of Watts makes it difficult for me to have a footy debate. Fwiw, both should play.

Man you really missed something. Like missing Jack Dyer or Big Carl. Serious dudes who made the ground shake. Menace in every footstep. Rod Grinter could seriously play. However he was a very dangerous man when he got an opponent in his sights. Like a bull but he very rarely missed.

Not sure if joking ?

Been through a similar transition with my team up here in Canberra. Going from a group that was winless and losing formulaically to one that now hands out some big defeats, it was a struggle; I remember games when you would put together a terrific period of play and then some players seize up and it's almost like they felt that they have never been in this position before so they didn't want to do anything to screw it up. And when you don't want to take risks, you give yourself up to inertia. And when enough have that mindset - the team will worry more about their direct opponent than getting the ball or helping out or spreading. That is how I read Roos' comments.

One of my favourites - we could do with him this week!

He posted a pic of a rainy basketball court on Instagram tonight with the comment: "Wish I could go to a place like this to clear the head." Poor kid must be frustrated on the sidelines. Either that or he's weighing up an offer to play in the NBA. Why am I the only one looking at his Instagram feed at 2am? What the hell are the rest of you doing??!

I like to use the bones from a roast chicken. Edit: misread thread title

I would happily take a first round pick for Howe. Could bring in a good young mid for that.

I think he's a greater priority than Howe. Hope he's not asking for $650k

Ins and outs don't matter too much to me this week. I just hope the 22 selected go out there and give everything they have for Neale Daniher this week. If he can fight as hard as he is with an incurable disease then these players can go out there and fight the filth on our home turf and win. Bring it on.

How the hell does Howe get a game after his 6 possession 1 mark performance last week. A dog ordinary player is Howe.

Fremantle/Sylvia? Clubs can be dumb.

2014, i find it difficult to believe that potential key witness are going to feel compelled to roll over just because of the threat of being charged with contempt of court (or perjury) by the swiss judicial system they could hardly be successfully extradited to face charges of contempt or perjury in such conditions, and any in-absentia convictions would hardly bother them certainly agree however that any ability to compel them to give evidence is a potentially positive step perhaps you could expand on this a little, as it is beyond my expertise

Whitfield. There's not a lot in it, their game styles have a lot of similarities, but I rate Whitfield's kicking (and general all round game) that 10-15% higher than Kelly's. I feel that Whitfield's got a few more natural gifts, Kelly perhaps has to work a little bit harder to hurt you, Kelly possibly works back harder the other way. Both should have very good careers.

Frawley gave us next to nothing in his last few years, similar to what Howe is giving us now. FA At least Garland is showing some pride in his performance.

Garland is hit and miss. I really like the bloke, and he earned my respect for how he kept his head high and kept trying in 2012 and 2013, undoubtedly the hardest time to be a Melbourne player in the past 50 years. I respect him for that. But at the same time, like steve said, he's part of a problem that persists at the club, and that's inconsistent performance, and an inability to consistently assist in helping the team perform at the same high level every week. I'm not saying I want to see him go, but at the same time I think him moving on would help us rid the club of a certain mentality that continues to plague us. If he can turn it around and help us to some wins this year on a consistent basis, I'd be happy to see him get a 2-3 year contract at 350-400k a year. But I've lost confidence in players like him, Dunn, Watts, Howe to rid themselves of that ugly approach to games the team is expected to lose. It's a losers mentality we can no longer accommodate.

All of these responses are almost identical to what posters were saying about Frawley when he was putting off contract talks. Of course there were and are times Garland beats his opponent. Just as there were times Frawley would beat his opponent. He had an AA year after all that was exhaustingly brought up time and time again as a means to defend him against those of us who were happy to see him go. Look how it turned out. We landed Angus Brayshaw. Does any supporter think that we lost out on that one? I would be surprised if so. And this is only his first year.. I'm not saying we'll net someone like that for Garland. But the same drivel is being written in his defence and it's so tiresome. The club is still so deep in it's own [censored] from having these senior blokes who are not only so up and down in individual performance but who also just don't have the capacity to create and inspire change! Garland doesn't have the capacity to instil fear in opponents around him nor does he lift team mates. He plays a very individual game, refuses to throw his weight around and constantly looks like he's just run a marathon. The dropping his head vision is one of many symbolic images. There are numerous nuances and subtleties in body language that players pick up on. Both opposition players and players of our own. Garland as I said is one of a handful. Drop-offs in performance like we saw against the Power occur because of a combination of reasons. The senior player issue is one of them.

To me it is one in the same. Scarring is a real issue. Constantly being smashed will absolutely have a lasting affect on some. Are the players intellectually capable or strong enough to move past it ? Resilience to me is the main question. I won't use scarring and it's outcomes as an excuse - I use it as a reality. And a further reality is simple. If you keep going into your shell at the first sign of danger, allow your intensity and effort to disappear when the tide turns for the worse and retreat into selfish football when put under pressure then all good. You need to be playing footy elsewhere. Mental toughness, fighting on against adversity to me is equally as important as being high skilled. Many of our players who have been onboard before Roos lack mental toughness and resilience. To me Roos job on these players is to decide who can and who can't display mental toughness on an ongoing basis and remove those who can't.

I'm a bit "meh" about Col staying or going. I like him as a bloke and as a player, but I feel like he's 100% one of the ones who has the mental scars that Roos talks about.

That bit might be true Dave (at least according to the usual story) but I'd be a bit careful about drawing a line between 'middle-upper classes' and racism. There's a well-documented history of racism and the working class in Australia, based around fear about jobs mainly ('there were eight or ten dashed Chinamen a-shearin' in a row'); and the Labor Party and racism were bedfellows for a long time. As late as the 1950s Arthur Calwell (for a while Minister for Immigration and then leader of the opposition) was still leading the charge against non-white immigration. Of course, for much of that time most parts of Australian society were pretty racist anyway, but it was something that was easier to exploit among the working class. The Labor Party may have moved on and some conservatives might not have, but that doesn't mean that there are straightforward connections between people who vote conservative and class and racism. Promoting fear/distrust etc among the so-called bogans about Muslims is an obvious enough legacy of a different class-based relationship. Does class matter in any of this now anyway? Lots of the middle class vote Labor, lots of workers vote LNP (as Tony Abbott's frequent fluoro vests remind us).

i'm actually not at all thinking about MFC when I say I want Essendon totally closed down. Maybe it would be bad for the competition too - I don't care. i just want these ranks-closing scum gone. Had they not stuck so close together, protecting the liars and cheats, I wouldn't feel so vengeful. But they have arm-wrestled clean sport, "whatever it takes", and every man-jack of the Essendon crowd is complicit - "turf out your trash, if you want to save your brand, and stop this waste of everybody's time and money!" I said in my head. Beyond redemption. A brand that now stands only for one thing. Their choice - and so they have to be GONE. But I guess I am not winning this debate...

If anyone is more deserving of some success, its Colin Garland. Let's just hope it's with us.

I didn't say he was getting enough of the ball, or even that he was disposing of it well, so I'm not fussed about his disposal level or his DE (which is a useless stat and says nothing anyway, but that's beside the point). At any rate, his 14 disposals was more than Lumumba, Bail, Spencer, Jones, Jetta, Garlett, Howe and Fitzpatrick. He also had the same number of tackles as Hogan, Dunn, Fitzy, and more than Grimes, Jones, Bail, McDonald, Jetta and Watts. In the context of our limp half-and-a-bit, I don't really think you make any meaningful point by referring to his disposal stats. None of this is what I was talking about though. Two of the biggest criticisms of Toumpas to date have been that he is a poor runner (both in terms of gut-running and pace), and that he is soft. Over the last fortnight he has made obvious, and quite marked, improvements in both those areas. He has put himself in the hole in front of leading players. He's been at the bottom of packs. And most noticeably, he has displayed a level of gut-running that has been disappointingly absent in his career to date. The point being, Toumpas is finally beginning to show improvement, especially in the two main areas he has been hounded for to date, and yet your post (and someone else's too) read like they have for the last year or two, with no regard to his recent form or the efforts Jimmy has clearly made. The above post refers to 'panicking' and not being any good on the inside - long-standing problems, but the last fortnight, not as big of a deal. We need to be rewarding the improvement he's showing. As for the comment on Dunn, I may not like him, but I was there to support and applaud him in 2014 when he lifted his game to the next level and put in for the team. So far in 2015 he has regressed, badly, and isn't putting in the required effort. He's a part of the leadership group and we need more from him. But, making my argument really, I acknowledged his improvement when it was plain for all to see - he stopped doing in 2014 what I couldn't stand in 2013 (and earlier).

Reference to neuro linguistic training. Now that's something to think about dpositive. As for a more brutal approach, I don't think it works. Only if you have a champion team. The great Melbourne teams of the 50s and early 60s were a case in point. Norm Smith could lift the team by a half time or three quarter time roast, but have a look at the team. They were truly a team of champions and they revered the coach. Individually and collectively that had the capacity to lift. With skills and confidence they developed attitude and the knowledge that with a little effort they could win any game whatever the score line. Sometimes, it was just the individual efforts of a few champions like Barassi, Dixon, Tunbridge, Adams etc that won the game. Often they hardly got out of second gear but still had the capacity to win matches. This is the case with the best teams today. Unfortunately, we don't have the champions to inspire and lift the team when we need it. Let's hope we are developing the players who will become champions over the next few years.

A complete digression from your point of course, but I still contend that the club was going the gus all the way regardless of any Frawley compo pick. When we did get that number 3 we said we'll have Petracca too thanks - and it was just going along with expectations to read CP's name first.

Downhill skier, always was. He's a massive liability when we're losing, but when we're winning he's an asset. Another "cherry on top" player like Watts.

Given we basically swapped him for Clark, I'm quite satisfied with our end of the deal. I think H is in our Top 10, and brings a lot more to the team than what we (supporters) observe for 2 hours every week.

A classic example of a player who is worth much more to us than to another club. Absolutely no doubt about him being a priority re-signing.

This whole thread is too deep for me, but please tell me that when he threw the spear into the crowd he killed at least on Carlton supporter. That would make his Australian of the Year title valid.

Dunn. 1 tackle. Doubt that torp is a Roos play, he just wanted it out of the defensive zone.

How come you need words to explain that?

Bleeds red and blue and has for years. Hope he signs and sees success in the red and blue as he damn well deserves it

If we get a pick tied to our second round pick - so 20-25 - I'd probably let him go, and wish him luck that he can play in a premiership. As I said in the Lumumba thread, we have too many players who have third tall roles.

I don't think the want is for us to benefit from their demise, or that they should be closed down. The fear comes from knowing the AFL and the boys club involved and seeing the writing on the wall that the AFL will give the Dons the type of draft concessions they bestowed on the two new clubs. The same concessions that have contributed to holding us back, and the other clubs at the bottom. It is more a fear of being disadvantaged due to the AFL rebuilding the Dons just to watch them benefit in the long run and having the clubs that actually pay for their rebuild being those stuck at the bottom, such as us. I guess it would be another example of the big clubs getting anything to remain big, while the little clubs get small handouts and told to keep quiet, look at our fixture from a commercial point of view for a good example.

Quite a classic Demonland thread. General debate interspersed with extreme pessimism, some extreme optimism (but we lost on the weekend so the wild pessimism outweighs the wild optimism), and WYL referring to 186. IMO, our worst is no better than last year which is an enormous disappointment, but our best is better than last year and we're showing it more than we did last year. Being in the top half of the competition for time in front (if that's true) is, I think, testament to our improvement. And the fixture, though many don't like to hear it, has obviously played a role in our percentage (comparing ours to St Kilda based on the fixture to date is one of the silliest things I've read) and our results so far.

He is a priority IMHO. Howe is a marketing boon for a club and the kids love him. Garland is much more valuable to our tem.

Definitely. If he's asking for that much, let him go. But I do hope he signs on - he's a more important cog in the back six than most realise I think.

Does a lot for us off the ball in terms of pressure, directing, tackling, harassing, shepherding etc. which goes unnoticed. But in comparison to his NAB cup form, is down on form, but still well and truly in our best 22.

You should have quoted in full " love thy neighbor, but give him a sly elbow in the ribs as long as the umpire isn't watching" - he was a nuggety back pocket for the Jerusalem 2nd 18 - they were a pretty good team until the then ruling body allowed the expansion team "Roman Power" into the league. I think the Jerusalem 2nd 18 first coined the phrase " umpires..come on ..we are being crucified".. ( I think I need a bex and a good lie down)