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If that was to summarise Rusty then I hope your novel is split into three parts. If your wife asks for a quickie then she had better do it at the beginning of a long weekend or you'll be late for work on Tuesday.

common sense - I disagree with every thing you have said Tell me exactly which medical records, rehab programs and exactly what each footballer told medical staff on examination and then you may be taken seriously. It is not common sense - it is your frustration at injuries that occur and some that don't respond to treatment as you would like. You have zero insight as to how players present and are treated. Your common sense is more " I am not getting the outcome I want when it comes to injuries therefore someone is to blame".

I haven't commented too much on this whole topic as it's a very complex issue and I feel that we don't have the full picture. I'd have to say, however, that making special salary cap/drafting rules to look after a team who was found to have systematically rorted the system, while also endangering the well-being and eligibility of its own players, would sit very uneasily with me.

The collective groan, OD, is because we know that our list has players that are NQR. Some of them will be jettisoned at the end of the year. Some are doing a good job at the minute and that is the sum of what most are saying. You constantly doing a Statler and Waldorf from the balcony wears thin. If we dismissed all our (currently adjudged) NQR players - we would not be able to field a team.

Honestly old dee, do these comments add value? He's playing AFL standard footy, so presently he deserves to be on an AFL list. Of course I doubt anyone would reckon he'd be lining up on the HFF for Hawthorn, but he's in the side on merit. It would be nice if we could go for 5 minutes without giving one of our second tier players a backhander.

I'm so happy for Ro Bail. I thought his career was over after all his concussion issues.

The discussions on Jetta and Bail are interesting. Pedersen is in the same catagory. In the past they haven't been sure of their role, they haven't had confidence in their place in the team, they have never been allowed to settle in one position (role) and because they are in the last half dozen picked every week they have been in and out of the team based on a week or perhaps two's performance. For the first time in some time we have a FD that is giving guidance and confidence to the players and ones who were once unsure are now confident that if they do what they are asked they will retain their spot. OD says Bail is not AFL quality. FM. In a team that has been mostly competitive this year he's not missed a game, performed well in most and as the article on the AFL website points out is doing all the "team" things. Bail is not the player you build a team around but he is a player that will play his role in a good team which we are slowly becoming. He has courage, he plays hard, he runs all day and he does his job. He'd get a game at a lot more clubs than you think OD. The other thing about Roos is he is strong on character. It puts Bail in a good position to retain his spot in the team and on the list. Personally rather than harp on about players being NQR I'd celebrate the reward for hard work and persistence Bail is getting. For a bloke that nearly had to give the game away because his courage saw him concussed regularly he's been fantastic. Same thing for Jetta and Petersen who have both had their issues.

Probably more than ever mono. We have been unlucky with Clark and Hogan but IMO we have a normal amount of injuries whatever normal is. The reason we get [censored] off is injuries to better players hurt us more than the better sides . Our list drops away in quality very quickly so the wrong ones injured has a dramatic effect.

For the Bail knockers this is an interesting comment: MELBOURNE: Rohan Bail Bail fills a very specific role for Melbourne. The Demons love his pressure and his ability to cause turnovers, highlighted by the fact he heads the list of pressure acts (159) at the club. Daniel Cross' determination is a given and his club-leading tackle count of 50 should come as little surprise. Bail is second on that table with 47 for the year,bumped up by the 10 he laid against Carlton in his club's first win of the year in round four. That day, the Demons out-tackled the Blues 84-65 and Bail was clearly among his side's best. – Ben Guthrie http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-14/kings-of-pressure

If only to use spell czech on that name..... damn....

wow. just wow. exactly how do you know this stuff. Serious question - do you have any medical background ? Just interested. (I'm tipping proctology because I am seeing a pattern as to where you pull a lot of your comments from)

And on the third day, the prophet arose and bumped James Hird as he has never been bumped before. All in thy members wing applauded for thee, for Hird has 'had it coming for ages.' Amen.

Well done on the achievement. I'm a fan of him at his best; he offers run and intent that others in our side could learn from. If he can develop some consistency and gain a little polish, his next 50 may come a little quicker. It does feel like he's been around a long time.

This kind of stat, which gives us an insight into what the coaches look for, who they value and why, is a perfect foil for the superficial judgements we make on players here on Demonland. Like it or not, the things the selectors value in building a better player and better team just fly by most of us on here. (Matt Jones, Shannon Byrnes, Cam Pederson, etc, etc) I'm not a fan of Rohan Bail, never have been, but I fully admit that I have NFI really when it comes to appreciating his real value as seen by the coaches. Basically, we should all be thankful that none of us here are responsible for team selection!

We should put him out on the field this weekend. I'll bet his back's fine. He's just chicken if you ask me.

Be very careful when correcting grammar. Is that too much to ask?

He should be thrown in jail and the key thrown purely for being at Zagami's

No. What we want is #18. And the only way to get that is to have a club that never rationalises losing.

I am more of a "six straight premierships" type myself ...

Bail is the club leader in pressure acts for the year , ( article on afl website ' pressure kings ' ) pressure leading to turnovers is what the gameplan is all about . I think he has been ok even in a couple of his quiet games . Elite endurance has a crack and his goal kicking is improving .

I asked the heavens for a favour for the Carlton game; will ask again for this one. Wasn't so long ago that we were on even pegging - watching them improve while we floundered was very hard to take, and the way the rest of the footy world just gushed only made it worse. To complete their return back to complete mediocredom with a loss to the 17th placed side would be so, so sweet. The last five years have turned me in to a spiteful and vindictive footy supporter. If we win this one, then all we need to do is roll Essendon later in the year and I can die happy.

Let me repeat: Well done Rohan. 52 games at the highest level.....

Col Sylvia, Travis Johnston etc. were highly skilled and best 22 but I'd have Rohan Bail with those stats from todays paper over either of them or any any other highly skilled lazy arsed pretenders every day of the week. His skills are improving on quite a rapid incline and he gives 100%, 100% of the time.

Well done Rohan. 50 more games at the highest level than the vast majority of us will or have ever played.

I have been dubious re what Rohan has to offer but ,let's give credit where it is due. He has reached 50 games, has survived some bad concussions, is a great gut runner and seems to be improving under Roos et al. Well done - I dips my lid.

probably the same place as the fun in being a dees supporter

I actually think my wife is worse than Abbott dc. She has the motto I married you for better or worse not for lunch.

With a list of 40 players, average contract length of 2.5 years, every year 16 come out of contract. Those blokes coming out of contract at the end of next year isn't some grand disaster waiting to happen. It's business as usual.

I am a medico but not in the area of sports medicine ( or proctology ) but I certainly do understand that back and foot pain are two of the most difficult areas to pin down diagnostically, mainly because of the limits of radiology and other tests and also because the time course for healing is so individualistic that it is hard to identify an end point for resolution. I can't believe that the conditions weren't taken seriously or properly assessed. These people are professionals and would not put their reputations at risk. I've said before that diagnosis is an inexact science and the natural history of many disorders is often unpredictable. It's frustrating but in the words of a long lost Guru " It is what it is! "

I'd much rather spend money on building the midfield with a player like Fyfe or Dangerfield, or another Tyson. I don't think keeping Frawley will cost anything like the figures that are being bandied about. Even Frawley says they're rubbish.

I live overseas and this was my first game for the year live. I watched Watts on numerous occasions not give an option on the wing from a ball coming out from the backline. You could argue that Watts had pushed hard from a previous contest, but aren't AFL footballers in the system as long as Jack supposed to make contest after contest. For me he just chooses when to go hard and that concerns me. Guys like Cross just go hard at every contest and that is the non negotiable that Roos will push in all his players. I am not sure Jack has the courage to push, when he is spent!

Still average IMO, would struggle to make it onto any other AFL list.

IMO Griffen can hurt a side a lot more than Grimes can and I would call this a break even at least

No doubt that fitness/medical staff push the limits. I have no doubt because fitness/medical staff have said this. They play footballers 80% fit and hope to run them into fitness, players with niggling injuries play with them in the hope they dont get worse and players get jabs to mask the pain. However you can line up every Demonland poster and their immediate family and let them comment on the medical treatments - their insight is the same as yours. Without intimate knowledge of the player, his presentation, the exact nature of an injury and the recovery and rehab program given - they like you, are absolutely guessing with no insight whatsoever. We have a couple of medical professionals on here and even they have stopped short on offering concrete opinions - why do you think that is ? We can debate if Watts is going hard enough, if Bails disposal is improving and whether Jamar taps to advantage because we have lots of concrete vision and evidence to form an opinion. I am not sure you understand that when it comes to medical treatment none of us have enough information to even cast an opinion ?

Bring back university?

Lets not forget Kent pushing for senior selection (I realize he will have to do a few more weeks in the 2's due to his suspension), but as has been highlighted before, at long last we seem to have some depth. My parents live opposite Adem Yze's parents and I run into Adem every now and then. I also played several years of country cricket with Adem and his brothers, and yes, he was a freak with the willow. Talking to Adem several months ago we got talking about our list and he was all praise of Kent, he couldn't talk highly enough of him. Said he would love to have him on their list and we did well to get him.

Always a risky proposition of planning to sub someone out, all that needs to happen is one player get injured he's on for the game.

As Kermit can attest, it's not easy being Greene!

Paul Roos signed up for another 3 years?

Hamburger with the lot thanks, wouldn't get too excited, $5 says he ends up with recklessly causing injury, think of everything else as alternate charges. Having laid those particular set of charges 50+ (with minor variations) times. The big charge is intentionally cause serious injury, that's a committal hearing/county court job (And I was surprised there are a few other alternates I would have thrown in.) Will probably find the victim was the architect of his own demise as well, very few 'innocents' in a night club barney. Watch it plea down to a good behaviour bond (as it would for any other citizen unless they have priors/ a docket).

34,819

you say essendon folding is a bad thing....i say essendon folding is a great thing. tomato tomato. This doesnt work as well written down!

Someone on thread mentioned JKH as being a loner and stand apart from the group (can't find the actual post). I live in oakleigh and was walking the dawgs tonight past the Oleigh chargers ground. They were training and I got talking to a trainer about the next gun from the chargers. What he told me I found very interesting. Even though they are two years apart JKH and Dom Tyson went to Trintity and both captained the chargers (did not know that). He said they knew each other both before and after Tyson went to GWS and were friends and JKH was over the moon to come to the demons because "his friend Dom was at the MFC. My first bit of inside gossip - make it of it what you may.

Guys i think like many issues on these matters the answer lies somewhere in between and also depends on the passage of play under scrutiny. If we scrutinised every player's passages of play (which the FD will be doing anyway post match for Monday review) you will find that there's improvement to be had in many passages, then there's some highs and some lows that need working on. In some cases a neutral outcome etc. For a high with both players involved (mostly Watts) please watch the piece of play from the ball up/stoppage with 7:05 left on clock in the first quarter. To summarise: Stoppage play. Watts spots Cooney on his own before ball up and decides to run with him. Wise move. Bail running alongside Cooney also sees this but allows Watts to go to Cooney. Bail Spots Dahlhaus on his right, also on his own, he points this out (not sure to who) and decides not to got to him (maybe under instruction if this is his direct opponent). So in this stoppage the 2 loose players are Bail and DaulHaus. Peddo and Jones compete for the ball up, the ball goes to ground as Viney works his way in front of Libba (who by the way holds/impedes him as he goes for the ball....no free kick) to get to the drop in front position (good work). However, after a brief tussle with Tyson, Boyd goes to ground and manages to get a toe into the ball while on the ground, kicking it just away from Viney allowing Libba to get first touch sliding in from behind. Libba then scoops the ball under him with one hand while being wing tackled by Viney. Trapped with the ball, Libba then throws the ball out towards Cooney (play on called by ump). Cooney grabs it off the ground quickly, feeling heat he shuffles (throws the ball) over to Daul (no free kick given). Daulhaus gathers the ball and attempts to run away from congestion but for Watts. He is right on to it and swoops on Daulhaus and puts on pretty much a perfect tackle bringing Daul to the ground. Daul still manages to get both hands free, but not being able to hand ball correctly from his awkward position (sitting on his butt), he flick passes (technically a throw) the ball out but unfortunately for him, straight into the arms of Tyson. The boys then work the ball away from the congestion nicely. Nev gets a woeful handball from Viney in all that and uses his body to protect the ball, gathers while being tackled but manages to handball off quickly but to the advantage of the oncoming Howe. With some nice "baulking/spinning" out of trouble work, Howe handballs to Tyson, then Watts who kicks a nice little short one to Matt Jones. He goes back to Watts who then spots up Chip on a lead. Frawley then looks to chip (yes that's an intended pun haha) a medium pass to the big Russian (or alternatively Byrnes who leads back and calls for it also). Byrnes, who just isn't aware of the oncoming carnage (or maybe he is and happy to put his life on the line lol), goes back to mark and gets crunched by the oncoming Russian and opponent. And this says so much about our play atm i think. Great work down back, and through the middle/at the stoppages. It's just that last kick i50 that is hurting us the most. Luckily JHK is smart, stays off the contest front and square, picks up, snap shot....however not enough on it and bouncing ball is rushed through. The big issue here is not what is happening so much with Watts not doing this well, or doing that well. It's what we do with the ball and how we set up our last kick from just outside 50. I think we had roughly 8 out of the last 11 i50 entries in that first quarter on Saturday. But we blew pretty much 5 to 6 out of those last 8 entries. Fix the i50 entry side and who leads when/where etc and this should result in us having more shots at goal. One aspect is to play to our strengths or make sure we don't use weaker ball users just outside 50 to try and deliver it with that last kick in a little better than we are at present. Eg., Say Bail or Pedo get it just outside 50..... make sure Watts/Howe/Nev or someone who is a better stab pass or just better using it by foot, are running past/or laterally for the give off so they can send it in with a better chance of hitting a target or putting it to the favoured side of a leading opponent or even the top of the square with accuracy if no other alternative. Byrnes, don't lead back into oncoming 6 foot plus giants (or at least glance up and realise what's coming and sit off the contest...ie., live to see another day and maybe even gather the crumbs and snap truly for goal). For a sample of Bail's short passing/option selection work, see 17:50 to go early in the first quarter. Same sort of clanger that occured when we were on top of Adelaide in the 3rd which lead to the ball being turned over and a goal to the Crows which IMO got them back into that match. This is effectively "a turnover" it just doesn't appear as bad as a turnover in the back half where the damage can often happen more quickly/directly, hence the impression in the observer's mind is magnified. In this example, Bail's short pass is way off the mark which results in a turnover deep in our forward line. The Doggies are clever enough to run it all the way around the southern side. They eventually bomb it long to a contest on their HF line, it spills out to a hard working Cooney who has worked his way (too easily) off Terlich (who had gone to him just before the kick) and he runs around the boundary with little pressure, kicking truly for the Doggies first goal. Potentially a 12 point turnaround or at least 7 (assuming a dodgy/rushed or set shot at goal up our end had Bail/Pedo been able to hit a target or at least not kick it/direct it, so poorly). A very similar result to Bail's short pass attempt to the Jones boy in the 3rd quarter against Adelaide. Not all bad on Bail's part though as he also did some good work around the stoppages (1 or 2 great tackles, working his way free to receive etc), but those bad turnovers (not to our advantage at all on the last kick coming i50) are really hurting our good work further up the ground atm. Edit: First attempt was a rough draft and a bit shoddy...a bit like many of our entries i50 atm

I'm not sure I agree with that logic. I think Roos would love Frawley back but knows to beat any kind of half decent team we can't rely on Dawes, Watts, Byrnes and JKH as our best forwards. The reason for Frawley forward and not Dunn is the question I suppose but I think it was more about getting Frawley playing a role where he is valuable and getting Dunn settled in a position. The big test for what to do with Frawley comes more if/when Hogan came in to the side. At the same time there's questions with what to do with Howe and Pedersen especially if Gawn really beats down the door at selection.

Ordinary. Stopped Griffen killing us but gave nothing the other way. He isn't a midfielder. Roos knew this when he put him in the backline for this season, but seemingly thought it was worth a go for this game. I doubt he'll try it again any time soon unless we are really short on mids.

Maybe I'm naïve, but isn't this thread supposed to be a Round 8 post-match discussion? Take it easy some of you - take a step back, breath, and let it go.

I read the whole page when i commented, cheers. I see what your saying. We have a number of players that would get that deal done, if its individual or combo. However that particular deal is not attractive for us at all. Hoges isn't really in that category of unknown/untried. He dominated the VFL goal kicking as an 18 year old and is rated among the top 4 full fwd prospect players. He played pretty well in his nab cup as well. your right, hes untried on the big stage of an afl game, but I'm willing to suggest that he will be more than competitive when he does play. It would be nicer if we could pick zac up through free agency if he was in that situation - Im not sure if he's under contract.

How would you know? You're just choosing to believe it because it's convenient.

BBO I like your stuff but could we have one thread not hijacked by you. I don't want to scare anyone away. Maple your post was collateral damage.