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Maybe because he's not aboriginal

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Perhaps another interesting topic starter on the forum, but this guy would have to be one of the most annoying people in radio, second only to possibly Jason Richardson

I regard your comments above as lazy in the extreme. You essentially seem to be saying that "the same cheerleaders reckon we'll be great each pre-season, and yet we're useless every year and this year will be no different". Not a particularly compelling approach IMO. Speaking personally, my optimism is based on the changes to the list and the professional and disciplined approach that the new coaching department has implemented this pre-season (ie, it is based on some discernible evidence, not fanciful wish thinking). And, relevantly, my optimism is bench marked against a 186 point loss that occurred on 30 July 2011. At no stage have I said we'd win the flag this year, or even make the finals - I just think we may field a team that is consistently competitive and that plays hard, accountable football this year. Given where we've come from, this is the source of some optimism for me. So - rather than sit on the fence and adopt the flabby approach to this issue, which is tantamount to sitting on the sidelines and throwing spitballs, I'd be grateful if you would please provide clear reasons as to why this pre-season is simply no different to any other pre-season since 2006 and why our expectations shouldn't be adjusted accordingly. Absent this (ie, some clear analysis as to why this pre-season is no different from others previously), I propose to disregard your comments as fairly baseless, negative claims that aren't rooted in evidence or anything else especially clever. Here's a report on our pre-season to start with: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2013-01-29/offseason-report-how-the-dees-are-tracking Cheers.

Quite right, and funnily enough it's quite the opposite. Third world countries have very low rates of both depression and suicide. When you've got to fight just to survive, there's no time to think of anything else. The more affluent you are, the more likely you are to get depressed. With regards to a link between drugs and depression, I have some anecdotal evidence to present (and yes, I too am a statistics nerd so please don't lecture me about statistically significant sample sizes people!). I am an occasional recreational drug user (alcohol and weed roughly fortnightly, mushrooms, LSD and ecstasy much less often, but not never). I speak from the position of someone who has tried (but for the most part, not abused) drugs, and who has mingled with many people who have tried (and abused, in some cases) nearly everything. Note that I'm a fully employed "white collar" professional in my mid thirties. You'll see me in a tie in the city. I don't live under a bridge. My experience of basically all drugs (alcohol included) is that they amplify whatever mental state a person is in. A happy, chilled out person becomes a bit more happy, and a bit more chilled, on drugs. A thug with violent tendencies on drugs becomes the guy you read about in the news after an incident in King St. Someone who is a bit depressed, like my friend who killed himself recently, spirals into deeper and deeper depression with the assistance of drugs. Is there a link between drugs and depression? I'm not sure, and correlation isn't causation, but anecdotally it seems to me that drugs exacerbate depression. Drugs become the easiest way for a person to make a temporary escape from how they feel, while paradoxically making them feel that depression even more acutely. It becomes a vicious cycle. Depression on the whole is vastly misunderstood. You don't blame a person who suffers kidney failure...It's a symptom of a malfunctioning organ in their body. For the same reason, you should not blame them for suffering from depression... they too have a malfunctioning organ, it just happens to be the brain. In any event, Curry & Beer, I too felt like you about "perfect people" with "perfect lives" suffering from depression... something I had no experience with and no tendency towards myself. Suffice it to say, finding out your outwardly healthy friend has hung himself after a brief but intense addiction to meth is an experience that can alter your worldview pretty significantly. It's a complex situation with no simple answers, but compassion trumps cynicism as a starting point.

I hate the constant comparisons between Flanagan and other journalists. Flanagan is a colour / feature writer - his job is not to break stories or report the news. He's given the time (and he has the skill) to really practise writing as a craft - a luxury not afforded to a news journo on deadline. If he was forced to report news or break stories you might well come to loathe him as you do the others. That's not an attack on him either - I really enjoy his writing. But you can't compare him to Caro et al. He writes about the game in the way that Garrie Hutchinson used to do.

Don't you realize that any reporter that says anything about us and tanking is a dud, doesn't know what they're talking about and only worth of ridicule. Let's hope Emma doesn't get involved or DL will lose its love child.

You have my vote RB I have little idea if Neeld is good or not time will tell but he inherited a mess. But anyone who know thinks that the Bailey era was anything less than a disaster should take off their blind fold. After four years he had taken us to 186, the team in disaray, a list of mainly the wrong types to win games in the second decade of the 21st Century and fitness level to a situation where we could not play out the last quarter against any reasonable team. Get over Bailey he was a poor choice that at best maintained our position as at the end of 2007.

We'd expect so but he won't make it easy to overtake him, he'll be setting a very high standard at training for hard work.

If you benchmark an expectation against the worst loss most of us have seen (sadly I saw one worse) then you're setting such a low benchmark as to damn the team with one act. Why, instead, don't you benchmark it against the win against Sydney at the G by in excess of 60 points? I'd imagine it's because it wouldn't give you much pleasure. Reality is we weren't nearly as bad under Bailey as 186 indicates and we weren't nearly as good as the win against the Swans indicates. But under Bailey we did win 16 games in two years with only one win in that lot against a development team. I'm optimistic but I also realize that there is a reasonable chance we will be poor again. There is also a chance we will be much better. IMO the suggestion that we won't really know until midseason is an absolutely reasonable one. Moon has history on his side - 6 preseasons of hope usually dashed by disappointment and none more so than last year. My benchmark is 8 wins given our soft draw. It should be more but I think people underestimate the influence of our mature players in 2010 and 2011 where at times Frawley, Green, Moloney, Davey, Rivers and Jamar played some first class footy, well above the level any younger player has played. One or two remain but Jamar and Davey are shadows of their former selves and Frawley seems to have stagnated. I also believe the current optimism surrounding Davey will evaporate when he is up against genuine opposition pressure and is not "dancing with his sister". I'd love to be wrong. A loss in round one will devastate many a supporter and hurt the club. I'm very anxious about that game.

MT-AFL. Cameron do you have any comment about the tanking issue ? CS No MT-AFL is that your comment ? CS No, i have No comment to make MT-AFL So your comment is no comment ? CS I am not making any comments MT-AFL Will the club be making any official comments ? CS I have no comment MT-AFL Is the club confident of evading charges relating to tanking CS No comment MT-AFL Will Melbourne refer action to the courts if found guilty of charges. CS No Comment MT-AFL Thanks for talking exclusively with us Cameron CS Youre an idiot !!

Yeah - most recently I went to last year's Grand Final. The winners played a stable back 6 of Richards (97% TOG), Grundy (98% TOG), Shaw (83% TOG), Mattner (83% TOG), Johnson (87% TOG) and Smith (93% TOG). They played this set-up in all 3 finals against 3 different oppositions except against Adelaide when Grundy wasn't available and LRT had to go back. Rhyce Shaw said after the GF: "How have you viewed the form of the backline this year? "We’ve done pretty well. Our back six or seven including Nick (Malceski) is really a tight unit and we play together and probably complement each other a lot in a lot of different areas which is fantastic and is just a great support for each other and it was a great end to the year. The guys really stood up in the Granny and it was fantastic." http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2012-11-06/rhyces-season-wrap-the-best-moment-of-my-life The Swans had the lowest points against in 2012. How about you?

Man do I feel for this kid, playing at an AFL club and partying every weekend, I can see why he was so depressed. I bet he was scoring heaps of chicks too, the poor bastard.

Sorry chook but I take serious exception to that comment. I have personal close up experience with people who have got involved with " relatively harmless "recreational drugs" There is no such thing. They all lead to the one spot where no one wants to be. They destroy lives and damage brain capacity. Forget this recreational drugs crap. They are all harmful, some more than others but all harmful.

Can we now return to the topic guys (which is Dom Barry)?

I am truely amused by a number on here who seem to think that selling sponsorship of the MFC would be easy. I have spent all of my working life in Sales. From my view it would be the hardest job in the AFL. Consider the product Membership in the bottom half dozen clubs, one of the lowest number of supporters outside of members. Poor on field performance for the last 7 years on end. Terrible off field publicity over the last two years. Reputation now of being tankers. Very seldom play gamers in peak viewing times with large numbers of games buried on foxtel. Gee what a great product you have to convince companies to come on board. If you were selling this product on commission you would be broke in 3 months. Now I have little knowledge of the skill level of CS / marketing team but they have one tough job. However there is a way out It is called winning Games. Start stringing together seasons in which we win more than we lose and the game changes. Until then this is one tough gig and any initative that generates leads is well and truely worth it. 2013 is in my opinion going to be a year were we have a number of unfilled sponsorship spots. Not a good result but you would need to be JC to do any better IMO

Flanagan got involved and we still respect him. I think you will find that the vast majority of footy 'journalists' are not well liked because they are illiterate ADHD sufferers and not because we don't like them reporting on the tanking investigation...

I think such a comparison is brutally unfair on Neeld (ie, comparing the average losing margin between 2011 and 2012). The methodology is wholly wrong. In short, you are not comparing like for like. 2011 represented Bailey's fourth year at the club. By this time, it was essentially his list, he was responsible for the preparation of the players (ie, fitness, strength conditioning, mindset), the game plan, the culture, the professionalism etc. However, Neeld inherited this list at the end of 2011. It was Bailey's list, not his. Neeld immediately assessed the list, and seemingly formed the view that it lacked quality in the senior ranks, it lacked quality leadership, it lacked a decent game plan, it lacked the requisite fitness base, and it was a black hole in terms of culture - in short, it was not sufficiently competitive to consistently win important games. And he then embarked on a strategy to introduce a hard, accountable, professional, disciplined approach to the list and the way it performed. He pretty well sacked the entire leadership group, he flamed the senior players, he changed the game plan etc. He did so, he said, because it would ultimately pay dividends and there were no quick and easy ways to achieve sustained success. This was the blue print. But, importantly, he said this would take time. However, some of you guys, rather simplistically, seem to think he should've been winning games from round 1, 2012, even though everyone who knows anything knows he was committed to fundamentally changing everything about the list and the culture of the team. FCS get real. Edit: I was at work when I posted this, and given that I was in a rush to get to a meeting I accidentally deleted two whole paragraphs, which I've just reinserted, but without which the post doesn't really make sense.

What is the underlying issue? Young adults use illegal drugs? The AFL has a pretend policy in place? Clubs protect talent more than other players? I'm not sure anyone really knows what they really want done let alone how to do it.

Just like Tom Couch last year? These players who come from the VFL very rarely step straight into regulars. I agree they are training well but we just have no inkling into how good their game smarts are or how well they can play to Melbournes game plan. Couch averaged 30 touches and a goal or two in the VFL and played one full AFL game.

Drugs don't ruin sport..... Gambling ruins sport..... Drugs makes sport better, but ruins lives..... Gambling ruins sport by opening it up to corruption...... If we want to clean up footy, then get rid of gambling first..... Then worry about drugs....

*Any posts that name the player, allude to who the player is, or attempt to narrow down who the player is will be deleted on sight.* (even if it's clearly tongue in cheek - sorry Billy)

Amazing isn't it? It's called passing the buck! IMO players should only be tested for performance enhancing drugs. There should be zero tolerance for that. Two year ban for first offence. Lifetime ban for a second. The party drug issue should be dealt with through education, counselling and ultimately dismissal for the small number of players who can't/won't reform. Both the AFL and the clubs need to work together to create this league-wide safety net. The current policy was and will continue to be, a joke.

I know others have already pulled you up, but I can't let it go. Irrespective that Barry wasn't drafted with a first round pick in isolation, do you even understand what the word "squander" means ? It means to "waste". Clarify why you think we've 'wasted" a draft pick on Barry ? I suspect you'll say that we paid too much. If so, then clarify what we paid and why you perceive it to be too much.

We have not "squandered" anything yet. That judgement will be made around the end of 2014 or 5. gee the recruits don't get long in your book Can you at least give him and the recruiters a couple of games.

Either that or they are tracking a deadly alien Predator.....

Where's the paranoia that you speak of? In the past 5 years or so, the AFL offered North massive dollars to go North. They rejected it, which would be a fair kick in the testicles of AD Inc. Do you think the AFL will do all in their power to support NOrth when the inevitable comes when they ask for further handouts? And in reagrds to the MFC, we are far, far from being out of the woods. Yes, we got rid of our massive debt. Yes, we made a small profit in the year from hell, but at this stage, we are relying on memberships and sponsorships to help keep us afloat. A drop in either will damage us, regardless of the outcome of the tanking saga. If we don't start winning games, and doing it in a hurry (1-5 years), we will be less appealing to new sponsors, and we will continue to find it hard to build our supporter base. Making a profit isn't the be all and end all, some debt is/can be good. But considering our asset base is one of the lowest in the league, and that our performance has been pitiful, we cannot rest on our laurels, just because we made some profit during 2013 - The Year of Shite ©. Not to mention the fact that our gross turnover is way off what the big clubs is.

I know we do it every year and we say it every year. But I am definitely getting pumped. 5 years ago, it was Watts (waited till QB for debut) 4 years ago, The dynamic duo (impressed from Round 1, but we all know what happened to $cully) 3 years ago Nothing (We picked up Howe and Tommy Mac, but they were still settling in) 2 years ago Nothing (began at second round picks, our best pick still hasn't played, but we did got a very useful second hand Mitsubishi Magner ) Last year, Excited about Clark (How good was he from Round 1, but really 1 decent win for the Dee's all year) Excitement all based around high hopes. I honestly think we have something to be worthy of excitement this year. - Jack Viney finally playing AFL football for his one and only club and after such a rollercoaster draft period too. - Chris Dawes to come over from Collingwood and help out forward along with Pederson and the experience both bring. - David Rodan and Shannon Byrnes already making huge impacts at training with experience, mentoring and just their confident playing skills. - Jimmy Toumpas getting snagged at Pick 4, ready to go, senior footy under his belt already and so much talk about what he is capable of. - Howe, Jones, Tommy Mac and many others looking to improve on their 2012 form. - Not to mention Neelds second year, Craigs infinite coaching assistance, some great matured talent in Kent and Jones. Lots more to be excited about. Then let's hope its wins throughout the season to keep it going.

Forgive the shaky camera. First time shooting on an SLR without a tripod.

And now for something slightly racier. They are at it again, Australia is having another crack at the world land speed record, a new attempt is being undertaken, (if it all goes wrong ,it will be undertaker). While its currently still in development and testing, they hope to crack 1000 mph. World record is 763mph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9616795/Australian-crew-launch-faster-than-a-bullet-land-speed-record-bid.html I just wish them luck, it helps to have a few screws loose in the head, hopefully none in the car, (loose word car) doing those speeds is madness. But each to his own I guess.

-2 (Phase II)

de·lu·sion [dih-loo-zhuhn] Show IPA noun 1. an act or instance of deluding. 2. the state of being deluded. 3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur. 4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion. Why is it "delusional" to focus on the positive aspects of our situation? Surely it's more delusional to constantly look to the past as a predictor of the future. What bearing can past events have on what happens this season? We have a substantially different list and a football department that is starting to have an impact on the culture of the team. Is this what we had last year, or the year before that? Let's be rational and look at what we have this year and see if we can draw some positivity from that. I'd suggest that to ignore the facts of the current reality is in line with definition No 4. Go DEES!

I subscribe to the view that silence is golden and it seems that so does Cameron Schwab according to an afl.com.au reporter - Schwab quiet on tanking. I learned a great deal from this article which on the surface appears to be about nothing*, most importantly that there is a major conspiracy afoot. In the space of less than 24 hours the report compiled by AFL investigators on alleged tanking by the MFC has gone from 800 to 1,000 and back to 800 pages. I demand to know what happened to the now missing 200 pages and I want to know now! * like the growing body of literature on the subject of tanking, it's seemingly like an episode of Seinfeld - much ado about nothing. Writing about it is becoming a new art form.

Taking a leaf out of the Collingwood book, we can make the gracious concession of describing the away jumper as Blue and Red.

Well, if that is what you got out of my post then there is no helping you...

What colour? lol It has been my experience over the last 5 years on Land that 'RED' is in the eye of the beholder...

A clue? One of my early bosses used to call me "kerp head" He had a high opinion of me.

Where's the fun in that? :-)

BH can you please give me a couple of punctuation marks it takes me ten minutes to read your comments.

Gives those same posters who just constantly bag each other another thead to hijack.

You serious ? Bennell is as soft as butter. He's scared of his own shadow.

Disagree - we need a settled back 6 or 7 (if we play a 7 man backline) that's flexible enough to combat any opposition structure - it's more important to work together effectively. Frawley, Garland and Watts should all be capable of playing tall or small. And interchange is for midfield rotations not the backline. I've posted elsewhere that we have 15 players in our defensive group at training so it's difficult to settle on 6 or 7. Frawley and Garland are in the leadership group and Tom McDonald finished 3rd in last years B&F, that's 3. I'm hoping Watts is in there too but he'll have to earn his place. The other 2 or 3 slots are up really for grabs.

I can't believe we can actually play around with who can play with in the forward line.

So far he has played 29 games for 4 goals Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a goal kicker so far

HF: Byrnes Dawes Howe FF: Davey Clark Pedersen Int: Tapscott Wing: Blease Midfielders capable of resting forward: Sylvia, Rodan To me as above is ideal but all of it depends on Blease, Tapscott, Byrnes and Howe proving capable of playing periods on the wing at which time Sylvia and Rodan can rest forward. The benefit of the scheme is it allows the guys who do the bulk of the midfield work (Jones, Grimes, McKenzie) and the young guys (Viney and Toumpas) more time on the bench. Rohan Bail gets left out due to his lack of class and finishing but if any of the above aren't up to scratch I think we'd find him back in the team. The other interesting ones I've left out of the forward/midfield mix are Matt Jones, Taggert, Jetta and Barry for varying reasons. I'm not convinced about Jetta in the backline but the club seem to want to persist with it. Train him with the forwards and I think you'll find him right up their in this mix of players. It's funny how we've gone full circle on the mid sized marking targets, not too long ago we had them everywhere (Robbo, Green, Dunn, Bate, Petterd, Jurrah) and now we've only got Howe left in that spot. Tapscott and Sylvia are both strong in the air as well. It's important to have enough forwards who can keep defenders honest both in the air and on the ground and not just be defensive.

This can't be the actual photo can it? what the hell is Magner doing? Camera's in front of you mate lol

As I've posted before, I think the concern about 18 teams playing 22 rounds (that is, the issue of some teams playing each other twice and others once) is a bit over-stated. The best teams will always end up in the top 6 spots on the ladder. The fight for 7th to, say 12th, will always happen and perhaps the teams that get into 7th or 8th might have a softer draw than the teams 9th to 12th - but so what? Teams 7 and 8 aren't realistically going to challenge for the flag anyway. The evidence shows that almost always the premier comes from teams finishing 1st to 4th - and usually, 1st or 2nd. For them to get there they must have beaten a mix of good and bad teams. Of greater concern to me is the inequality of the draw in terms of commercial benefit rather than position on the ladder. We shouldn't play home games at Etihad and all teams should have a better distribution across premium times. However, a lot of that is within our control. If we play better, we'll be rewarded. And I'll support Jose - I think the AFL does a pretty good job overall at developing the fixture, even though it isn't perfect.

This time last year I predicted Hawthorn would win the premiership and Melbourne would take a giant step forward by making the finals and finishing in eighth place. I was wrong on both counts but that is the way of things in the life of a new age oracle. Like most people these days, we rely far too heavily on modern technology and the result is that it's so easy to make mistakes. It wasn't until well into the 2012 AFL season that I discovered I had overset the forward drive on my reconditioned crystal ball so that all of my predictions were one year ahead of time. This came as a great relief to me on a number of counts, not the least of which was the knowledge that Stella (the name by which my crystal ball is affectionately known) is once again fully operational and I'm able to provide my fearless predictions for the future with some measure of confidence. I was also relieved when I looked through the swirling snow encased in Stella's glass orb into 2013 and beyond that those moronic Mayans got it all wrong about the world ending on 21 December, 2012. Of course, if you knew anything about what those blokes used to smoke back in their day, you wouldn't be surprised that none of their predictions ever worked out right on the button. Not that my own track record has been all that flash lately, but at least when I make my forecasts on big ticket items like the end of the world, I make sure that my research is impeccable and my prognostications are accurate enough to ensure that people listen to me the next time I open my mouth. So much for the Mayans! So looking into my crystal ball recently, I was somewhat taken aback to see Jared Rivers in horizontal navy and white stripes at Simmons Stadium and Ricky Petterd looking positively strange in yeller and black high-fiving a bunch of ferals after booting one through his backside from a pocket. While I'm at it, congratulations to James Frawley, Jeremy Howe and Lynden Dunn for taking their former teammates to Bay 13 to give them an insight into the mindset of the yobbos who will be following them for the remainder of their careers. On the other hand, when I looked to the west, I was truly gobsmacked at the sight of an overblown Cale Morton (fair dinkum, he was well over 105kg) checking into a Perth Weight Watchers clinic after what surely must have been an experiment gone wrong from the chemist who coaches the Weagles. I say it every year but it's a fact. Final eight predictions are always fraught with danger. There are always surprises with some teams unexpectedly dropping out of contention and others rising to the occasion and surprising everybody. This my top eight for 2013:- 1. Hawthorn - Clarkson and the Hawks are smarting about their lost opportunity in the 2012 grand final. They had the Swans on the ropes but some poor kicking for goal let them off the hook and Malceski and Morton (Mitch) turned out to be the unlikely heroes. I still rate Clarkson as the AFL's top coach even if he loses the plot in the coaches box and at under 9 games, and rate the Hawks a shoe in for next year's flag. Stella confirms my opinion. 2. Collingwood - the Pies have managed their list beautifully throughout the free agency/trade and draft period. They managed to trade well to get good draft picks and gained some handy replacements on the cheap through free agency. Having worked the system to perfection, they now have the added depth to make up the leeway between them and last year's grand finalists and I reckon they are going to give the flag a bit of a shake before doing what they always do best. Yes, that's play in losing grand finals. 3. Geelong - the fat lady is far from done with the Cats who utilised 2012 to bring several new faces into the game with good effect. Some critics believe they might struggle but they've still got the hunger and have recruited reasonably strongly in areas where their football department perceived they might have had some weaknesses. Geelong will remain hard to beat in 2013. 4. Fremantle - Ross Lyon managed to rejuvenate the Dockers in his first season out west. He added new steel into the team and whilst the emphasis remained on defence, his team also demonstrated some fantastic attacking capabilities when called upon to do so in the latter stages of the season. 5. Sydney - the reigning premiers didn't exactly slip under the radar in 2012 but they will come under more intense scrutiny from opposition coaches and teams determined to knock of the competition's tallest poppy. Kurt Tippett will add something to the forward division but it will be well into the season before he even appears in the colours at AFL level. I see them slipping because that's what the crystal ball's telling me. 6. West Coast - the Eagles have a classy list but I'm not satisfied that they've done enough to improve their list to the point where they can take the next step up into the top four. I worry about Wellingham and wonder what Morton and Bennell are doing on their list. 7. Carlton - they've really blown it in the past couple of years with a talented but underachieving list. Malthouse comes in with a new/old philosophy that should lift them a few notches and back into the finals but salary cap restrictions as a result of the AFL's ruling on Chris Judd's financial package, have restricted their recruiting. With Judd in his declining years and giving up the captaincy and the likes of Kreuzer and Gibbs looking decidedly shaky, this is probably the Blues last chance of reaping the dividends of their three year tanking spree (2005-7) which the AFL has curiously chosen to pretend never existed. 8. Melbourne - the Demon overhaul is now virtually complete. It's a changed list with a new attitude and every player is prepared to give his all. The squad might be young but with the massive turnover of players, a new work ethic, a high level of motivation and a reasonable draw, they should improve. Mark Neeld wants to have the hardest team to play against and while I don't think they're quite there at the moment, I think they'll be the most surprising team as well as the most unpredictable. My rough guess then is that they will get to eighth spot on the ladder. Finally, I'm sure you all want to find out about the outcome of the AFL tanking enquiry. Well, I can't say much but looking into the swirling drifts of snow, I can just detect the outline of a single object - the scales of justice. Make of that what you will but I can assure you all that whatever happens, it won't be the end of the world. I'll see you all in the future!

Many is the time that Arthur ushered me into the post-match change rooms at the 'G' to sing 'The Grand Old Flag' and chat with my idols. I was a skinny kid, and we had good reason to sing, week after week, after week, and both verses. Those days are long gone, but the memories are indelible. Arthur is part of them.

Here it is and written only as Martin Flanagan can - Farewell a friend for life Football is about more than the politics and the million dollar footballers. As Flanagan reminds us, it's also made up of hundreds of thousands of people including the fans and the humble doorkeepers and bootstudders who all have a stake in the sport. I only wish that some of his colleagues understood that so we could appreciate more the roles of great people like Arthur and their contribution to the game.