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Unfortunately only 1 team can win the flag each year. Does that mean the other 17 coaches are duds? Craig was a very good coach for a long time, and his end at the crows was symptomatic of the average football supporter being too impatient and not understanding enough of the list building process. Recent history has shown that Craig developed a young list poised for finals success, just as he said shortly before he succumbed to external pressure. Only a fool would give all the credit to Sanderson - drastic change can't be effected that quickly.

No It should be supporters and posters like me who have the opportunity to be part of a wide community of Melbourne supporters who should be thanking you. If it wasn't for Demonland and 'Ology I am sure my interest would have waned long ago.

And for the Neil Craig detractors who are asking particularly clever questions such as, "why then did Adelaide get rid of Craig as coach?", cop a tip. Neil Craig's not employed by the MFC as our head coach. He's employed for his undoubted experience in elite sport as the director of sports performance, a role created for him. And remember - he chose the MFC. Many other clubs wanted his services.

We were [censored] with him and we've got Frawley, McDonald, Garland, Watts, Dunn, and Davis to hold down third talls as we see fit. Adelaide lost Bock and Phil Davis in successive years and with an ageing Ben Rutten some Adelaide supporters thought the sky was falling. But opportunities opened up and now Talia is a rising star. Look at Hawthorn. Today they've got Gibson, Schoenmakers and Stratton as their 3 tall backs. They could be 3 premiership key backs in a few hours, but I'd take Frawley, McDonald and Garland/Watts over that triumvirate. Rivers leaving isn't preferable, but nor is it a major issue. And with a decent compensation pick we may come out ahead. I understand the logic that losing senior players isn't ideal, but we'll be losing a player in a part of the ground we can readily cover. I see 2012 as the end of a bleak era. Neeld and Co have had their year to assess the list and 2013 represents a new beginning. If Rivers goes, as well as Moloney - and a few others - it's probably the right time for it to happen.

Attended a lunch today with Neil Craig as a guest speaker. So impressive. I can guarantee the tail is no longer wagging the dog. We have defined a high performance culture. Individuals that cannot meet the requirements will no longer be tolerated (respectfully). So much more I gleaned from Neil but one thing is for sure ... Whether we recruit trade or pick up free agents, they will be hand picked to fit a system, talent alone will not cut it. A graph showing just how far the gap between u 18 comp and afl continues to widen makes for interesting reading. We will not be relying on just kids to pull us back up. Also, we will not be dictated to on deals over Jack Viney. If GWS or GCS bid so be it. If we believe that Jack is third best in the draft we will match. Simple as that. The guy might have revolutionized sport science in the AFL but he sure knows what constitutes leadership and how to create a high performance culture. They have started from scratch but they will not settle for mediocracy. He mentioned that to create a culture of success you need people who have experienced this. Everyone wants to be successful but not many know what it takes to get there. Don't be surprised to only see trades and FA from successful clubs only.

You forgot to mention that Craig, after inheriting a basket case from Gary Ayres, took Adelaide to a prelim final the following year. (The same thing as what Sanderson did this year.) He had a 60% winning record in his eight years as coach of Adelaide and took them to the finals in five of his eight years there. His last year there may not have been great but every coach has his use-by date in this industry. People really do see what they want to see. I'm really glad that we Craigy on board with us.

He needs to fix two things: 1) Stop diving. 2) Stop trying to always push his opponent under the ball, grow a set and actually try to beat his opponent in the air.

A big thank you to all those who contributed articles to Demonland during the past season and also to everyone who contributed articles and who have posted here and even to those who visit but don't post. We value your contributions and ongoing support. We're hoping for a bigger and better season in 2013 and are always looking out for new contributors who have something to say about the mighty Demons. If you want to contribute an article feel free to contact me via PM. Cheers & thanks again.

Comiserations to the umps; they gave it their best but couldn't get over the line.

Shattered Hawthorn faces...brings Joy to mine..

Thank you to all my friends and enemies on'Land. You make life worth avoiding.

I feel happy for the Swans, makes me realise how absolutely awesome it would feel if my dees ever won a flag. Almost feel jealous of them. This is where we need to get to. Please Neeld make this happen! PS suck [censored] Hawks

Errr..... didn't he donate a large whack of soldi to the debt demolition? In fact, didn't he donate twice? $20k and then $10k, or the like (someone can correct me on this). But I don't think he's that p!ssed off with MFC. This is not stabbing us in the back, its meant as a prank on Col. I don't think he has the intelligence to have an agenda, and i honestly think his tanking comments were a matter of his mouth working before his brain engaged. He'd probably take the words back if he could, cause he knows how silly they make him look. His tweet is a dumb joke. He's a s*** stirrer without much brains. Read it as that and let it go.

you didnt go to the last Melb \Hawth grand final did you?

Roost - they've only had 12 months. To go from being way below par, to then meet the standard, and then hopefully exceed it, takes time. The thing that inspires confidence, for me at least, is that they are now focussing on the fundamentals. Also, they now have a plan that seems to be built around the basics - discipline, fitness, structure etc. Good effective planning, executed well, generally creates results. Positive results. For me, the narrative is not wearing thin. In fact, I find it encouraging.

I cannot believe some of the unmitigated crap that is written in some these threads. 'Players won't come to Melbourne', 'A graders ...', 'Caddy won't talk to Melb...', etc. It's odd - 2 of my mates are on boards of other clubs, one's the head trainer at another, and one other is involved in player management. They tend to differ with many of the footballing genii on this site. Players usually move for one or more of 5 reasons - more money, more opportunity, going home, unhappiness with the club they're at, and as they get older - success. The MFC (despite what you read on this site, or hear/read from lazy journo's) is seen as an attractive place to come to by many - good coaching, elite facilities, plenty of salary cap room, underdeveloped list, and the only way is up. The club will, unlike some who take a scattergun approach or need a big name to quieten supporter unrest, will approach players who they believe will fit in with their plans and fill the holes that THEY (and not YOU) deem need filling. It is what it is, and the FD are trying to make it better.

Rodney Eade resigned (after he was pushed) too and is in a similar position at Collingwood. Wonder Pie?

The next best feeling after a Demons, win is a dawks grand final loss. Absolutely hate that team with a passion & at the moment I'll cherish the night. Might even watch the replay.

It's why Roos is so hard on us. Losing on purpose is a disaster. I wanted it at the time but never again do I want my club to not try and win every moment of every game. It's a long road we must travel

Yes i hope the Coach watches that GF a couple of times. The real stuff for him & our club starts on monday. We must recruit some players who are ready to go round 1. New blood who couldn't get regular games at other clubs for reasons out of their control. Yes we do need kids. But we need experience more. 2013 the respect of the MFC must begin. At present we have none. But Norm now watches over his MCG.

What a great game, made even better with the Dawks losing.

no. I read it in cafes. Haven't bought a paper in years.

Great to hear the song with the banjo solo

Just wanted to say, i'm having a conversation about the game on Twitter with a guy who lives in my city. As an American fan, this is huge for me! I've never had anyone here in the States to talk about footy with!

Not sure if he was involved in bruise free football comments, Demonstrative. Didn't Robinson and Armfield say those comments? Please link us to a direct quote from him on this, if you can. Being on the Blues list at the time is not the same as being involved in those comments (which incidentally, Garry Lyon agreed with at the time on Footy Classified). Apart from the stupid tanking comments in that interview, where else has he taken "many opportunities to undermine the club" since he left? I hardly think a joke tweet about Silvia is 'undermining', lol! Also, McLean sought out the trade to Carltank, as opposed to being put up for trade. He initiated it. Most on here agree that he saw the writing on the wall at the Dees and looked for greener pastures. Doesn't mean he has a gripe. While I certainly do not like McLean as a character and think his comments about tanking were plain stupid and foolish, I cannot understand why some here are so hating and emotional towards him. As I said earlier, he is not smart enough to have an intentional agenda to undermine the MFC. I think he is a dumb, loose cannon, but the AFLs tanking investigation will make him look the fool in due course.

Finished last in his heat to continue our good form this year.

It's just that everyone talks about the Swans and Moneyball, but the key element of Moneyball is that the Athletics had less money than their competitors, Sydney have more money! They use the excuse of cost of living but on a world scale Sydney ranks 11th and Melbourne 15th, hardly justifies and extra 10% salary cap. By the way, Adelaide ranks 27th therefore they should have a smaller salary cap by Sydney's reasoning. I do admire the culture and strong team environment the Swans have, but the draft and salary cap are the two single most important elements of the competition and Sydney's concessions completely undermine this.

HATE Hawthorn. Arrogant flogs and spoiled whiny supporters. Massive bandwagoners too. Remember the crowd they got vs Port in 2004 at the G? Massive [censored] Kennett as President hilariously sold them to Tasmania. Bastardised club supported by clueless spoiled bandwagoners. /sore spot I will be barracking very hard for the Swannies this day. Hope they win by 1 point.

I can understand the club pushing for Goldsack because of his attributes which would be very much in line with Mark Neeld's wants as a coach. It would be perfect for Goldy as a player to be at a club where he knows he's going to get a regular game. I am hearing that Wellingham is set to go back home but if he gets a good enough offer might be tempted to either remain at Collingwood or come to a club like us. I understand we could come up with a better financial deal but, as we keep getting reminded, if your name ain't Scully, money ain't everything in footy (mind you if you've been offered the GNP of half a dozen third world countries, you would consider it)

How any MFC supporter can want Hawthorn to win is beyond me.... To rank my least favourite: 1. Essendon 2. Hawthorn 3. Collingwood 4. The rest Back to the game. It has all the ingredients to be a corker. Every time I watch the Swans my admiration for them increases. Contrasted against the insipid efforts by our team, the Swans embody everything I want in my team.

Something has been very wrong for 10 years, & our culture has been lacking for decades. What we see is the place being turned UpSide Down & shaken... thankfully. Otherwise we could be going through the motions for another 25Yrs.

In case it's escaped your notice, we haven't for quite a few years.

Neeld will be watching....what you really meant was "WATCH THE GAME WATTS" and the rest of the list for that matter

... and so the idiot wind blows ... He makes the AFL look stupid with its two month long unfinished investigation based on the say so of this brainless imbecile who was set up by some mischief making ratings seekers on a television programme. Nobody on that show bothered to ask him whether his new club paid him more than his old club and whether that (and not the "experimentation") had anything to do with him leaving. They didn't bother to ask why someone of lofty principles who doesn't like the philosophy of "experimentation" ended up at Carlton. Neither did the AFL which somehow ignored the revelations in the Brendan Fevola book about "experimentation". Yeah, we know they investigated that thoroughly too. How long did that investigation take? Do they take seriously allegations from someone who twitters on about giving someone's mother AIDS? Really ... Idiots, all of them!

Groan .....

Let's see what happens in October. I like Neil Craig.

Perhaps I'm selling him short - but am I the only one surprised to be hearing Martin's name mentioned in so many trades for reasonably high-profile players?

Our best defender... who spent half the year as a forward? Chip the Spud. FFS. For every poster with the rose coloured glasses on, there's one with poo coloured glasses on that sees the worst in everything.

The coin is in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

No worries, will do. Only one problem - i have no idea what you are talking about!

He resigned himself, Sherlock.

Melbourne has to be active in the FA trading, this is the only place that we can target specific players with a greater level of certainty of getting them. We need a couple of mature players to help provide strength around the midfield and on field leadership for next few years while our younger players mature, the draft should predominately for raw talent, and future years. Sorry to hear so much rubbish about why would anyone come to Melbourne, yes we have $$, but we also provide opportunities to some players who may not have them otherwise. A lot of other clubs hav salary cap pressures which means they need to get rid of other players, demons and others offering better deals forces these clubs to pay more for their players, tightening the salary cap forcing some good players out. . How quickly would Fev pull on a Demon jumper if asked. A change in a few personnel, increased fitness and improvement in our skills or get rid of those less skillful/lazy and we will win a lot more games, we probably wont be top 8 next year but we will be a lot closer and getting better each year.

The more he tweets the more he comes across as a [censored].

Unfortunately for Brock, his cheek has regularly proven to be somewhere between dumb and offensive.

I like Brock's style. Footy fans should admire him for his cheek, rather than browbeat him into another sporting blandoid.

Gysberts is still in contract, therefore he cannot go for nothing and he cannot go without our say so unless he wants to break his contract.

I respect your opinion but I dissagree with you here. Clark was a big strong player who had a dissappointing season the year before we drafted him, came to Melbourne purely for the money and the fact we could make a trade happen. Had played an AA year in a position we weren't recruiting him for and was panned from several quarters as a bad move before he played a game, I'm glad we were right and it gives me great faith in the new coaching group, but we clearly overpaid in a risky way. Dom Tyson is potential, our list is full of it, we haven't done too well trading off it the last few years. Wellingham is a premiership player in a team which has played strongly every season he has played with them, has more finals experience than our entire list put together and is a valuable player in one of the leading mid-fields in the comp. I love Mitch Clark, but Wellingham has already acheived far more as a footballer than Mitch. All good sides have older players to lead and help young players realise their potential. Young Dom Tyson in our side as it currently stands would be learning from Nathan Jones as the best performing most experienced leader with not much experience backing him up, It takes an incredible person to get to elite standard with little to no example to follow, and we have seen average players become great simply by following a strong example. This is why we need players like Wellingham. As for value, you seem to argue that players have absolute values and absolute grades which determine them. The fact is in every market place multiple factors affect value. In this case the main things with Wellingham are: 1. Collingwood are hamstrung by a tight salary cap and having to overpay Cloke and a few other players to get them to stay. Who knows what they would offer Wellingham had Cloke and or Beams/Thomas left? My guess, enough to keep Wellingham. Melbourne has a loose salary cap becoming looser with the loss of 3-4 highly payed players, a front ended contract would have no-where near the impact on our cap as it would have on the pies (or several other contenders) we will not destroy our club or our culture by paying more than teams with tight caps, the fact we are a bad team means that the only way we can get players is to pay for them, we can't guarantee immediate success. 2. Teams must draft/trade to fill needs, Collingwood's current list has a multifaceted midfield which runs deep and has bright new talent coming through quickly to put pressure on current members. Wellingham's value to a team in this position is vastly different to Melbourne, who have one midfielder who proved himself this year and a bunch of potential, also our midfield is not multi-faceted, we have no quality players of Wellingham's type. 3. Collingwood has a strong experienced list with many leaders on every line who have played finals/premiership games. They will not be losing nearly as much in the way of experience and leadership as Melbourne would be gaining from a player like Wellingham. 4. Collingwood's players have every right to be arguing for more money, they have been consistantly successful both as a team and as individuals. The Pies have a Brownlow medalist, a Coleman medalist, a Norm Smith medalist and a team of premiership players, they can expect to be rewarded for their performance and it would put a dent in their team's morale if they felt underappreciated. Melbourne has been close to the worst team in the comp for 5 years, many of our players are already overpaid due to potential that is yet to be realised. Others have been overpaid as due to our dearth of experienced talent we have had to pay overs to keep them. Others are overpaid merely to meet the minimum cap! Melbourne's morale will gain more from having good players come to the club than it will from players feeling that we overpaid or that 'big contracts' are creating discontent, what have they done to earn that right? We can't flick a switch and undo our poor performance anymore than we can just put every player on our list on exactly what we think they are worth without risking losing all that we have. As for the players you mentioned, Sydney overpaid for Shaw, who was a wreck and far from a guaranteed commodity, McGlynn who has exceeded himself, and had to pay a fair amount at the trade table and in contract for Kennedy, the only reason you are arguing they didn't overpay is their team success, if Melbourne had drafted any one of these players for the price Sydney paid I have very little doubt there would be similar argument about their worth on here. Shaw certainly wasn't a premiership player playing in one of the leagues top 4 midfields like Wellingham so I don't really think this example is relevant. Also I think Sydney identified these players as filling needed roles, just as Wellingham/Clark/Brynes would fill important vacant roles at Melbourne. I tend to think that getting the right players to play these roles is more important than whether we pay them the same amount as they would have earned at their previous club. Also the swans have played in 12/14 finals series, were a popular choice as it afforded players less media scrutiny and a more comfortable lifestyle and was a matter of years from its last premiership, there were other elements in play in drafting all the Sydney players you mentioned and as a result they would have cost more to come to Melbourne/Victorian clubs. Leaving aside the fact Sydney pays their list over a million dollars more than every Victorian club as a result of 'living in Sydney allowance'........... I think you have too little faith in our new FD, I don't see them going after players for so much that we ruin our cap, or that our playing list is malcontent. Rather I see them using our currect circumstances involving FA and our salary cap situation to leverage getting the best available players filling our needs. I'll say it again, Wellingham to Melbourne is a great move, whether we pay him a signing bonus or not.

I can only assume you're referring to me... I said it was my prediction. And I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it. How did Toby Greene go this year ? Yes, I know it was unusual. How did Joel Selwood go in his first year ? How did Nathan Buckley go in his first year at the Bears ? He came second in the B&F to Martin Leslie - just. He was already 20 and like Viney was mature enough and strong enough to impact from day one. How did another left footed Oakleigh Charger in Andrew Gaff go this year ? In his second year he averaged 24.6 disposals and played every game. He spent half the year as a 19 year old. Viney is already heavier and stronger than Gaff. Leigh Matthews won a B&F at Hawthorn in 1971 when he was 19. Yes, it was his third year and this will only be Viney's first, but there are some players that come into the system that are prepared to go from day one. By the end of his first year supporters will be surprised by his attack on the contest. They'll be surprised by his mindset. They won't remember another young Melbourne player come into the side that was as ready to mix it with men. There aren't too many players come into the system with Viney's makeup. I don't expect others to agree and nor do I care, but with Viney's traits and his already strong body I expect him to impact early on. Will I be disappointed if he doesn't ? Not at all. Will I be surprised if he doesn't ? Yes. As I said, it's my prediction.

Heard from a very poor source (Greg Denham via SEN this morning) that we are the frontrunners to pick up David Rodan. Thankfully the person who clips the nails of my next door neighbour's dog, disagrees, and i'm more inclined to believe him.

I miss the days where Travis Johnstone, Yze, Woewodin, Bruce, Green, Leoncelli were all running around