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Mitch for Pick 12 Brock for Gysberts Trapper for Grimes I'm confident enough we won't do anything stupid.

We would be mad to give up pick 4 for a B grader in Boak. And that's what he is. A good player. Not a great one. We must back ourselves to pull a Hawthorn (Franklin and Roughead) or a Collingwood (Pendlebury and Thomas) in this draft with our two top 5 picks. I for one will be very disheartened if we don't go down that path. Offer Port Pick 12 and a half decent player like Tapscott. It'll hurt, but not nearly as much as it will seeing the next Pavlich or Judd running around for another club for the next ten years, when they could have, should have been running around for us.

I would give him the 3 games he needs for 250 even if one or two as sub. He has given us plenty. He deserves his place this week with 6 goals and BOG for Casey anyway.

What do all stars playing today have in common? They were all drafted. And what does the overwhelming majority of those players have in common? They are still with the team that drafted them. I'm all for bringing in mature players, but not at the cost of high picks that give you a great CHANCE at picking up a star. Very few are selected late, and they are what we need more than anything. Top 10 picks don't get traded unless you are getting a certain established star in return, and in those cases they often cost more than just a top 10 pick.

Richmond stuffed up top 20 picks in Oakley-Nichols, Richard Tambling, Danny Meyer, Adam Pattison and Dean Polo, none of whom are still at the club. Hawthorn chose Beau Dowler, Luke Brennan, and Mitch Thorpe in the top 10. But both of those clubs have also chosen quality players in Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Martin, Deledio and Cotchin as top 10 picks. Should those clubs have traded those precious picks ? And you talk of development. Neeld has been at the club for one preseason. How about giving him an opportunity to develop some top end talent. I can't believe this mentality that because we've made some mistakes in the past we can't possibly get them right in the future. And no doubt the dolts that are wanting to trade top end picks for B graders are the same that will cry like stuck pigs in four years time when the pick we've traded ends up being for a budding star of the competition. By all means get Boak, but firstly he needs to be convinced that the MFC is a viable option and if he does then get to work on doing a deal that may involve pick 13 and a player. Port aren't going to let him walk for nothing. It's not as if they'll have the whip hand. Pick 4 is over the odds, especially with the talent on offer in this draft..

Pretty ordinary Thread title...you scared the Shite out of me...!! Not a good idea...We take Viney wherever that number is...draft numbers are not critical..We have already proved that.

I hope we just put in a false bid to drive the price of Cloke up . I dont think he is worth 1 mill a year-he will get in Mitch's way .

I'd also offer Tapscott. While I love his hardness and kicking, I think he lacks the required agility, and that is the number 1 athletic attribute I see really successful AFL players needing these days (along with cleanliness with the footy being the number 1 skill required). Very few get away without having it, beyond being a bog standard AFL player. It hurts Moloney, and from what I can see, Tapscott has the same affliction - it could be a result of his hip injuries, but on exposed form I think he struggles here. You never want to give away a player you like, and lots of supporters love him, but to get a player like Boak, you simply have to. And the reality is that Tapscott is a fringe player.

I'm not really into conspiracy theories or the like but I wonder if the idea all along, once Liam incurred what was at least a medium term ankle injury, was for him not to play until after his next hearing in NT was over. This would have kept him out of the limelight and away from publicity which, in the circumstances, was probably a good thing. I say this because, effectively the downgrading from 2 - 4 weeks to 1 to 3 weeks is virtually meaningless. It's hardly likely that Liam would be selected for Melbourne first up if declared fit to play the weekend after next - especially since the game that weekend is against Port Adelaide in Darwin. He won't be playing in the VFL that round either because both Casey teams have the bye. Which means that realistically we won't be seeing Liam Jurrah playing until Casey's game against Frankston in 2½ week's time and after his date with the court in the NT. Either way, I wouldn't be getting too excited about the new 1 - 3 week classification for Liam Jurrah's return because it's virtually meaningless. He has bigger fish to fry both in the legal sphere and in terms of achieving some sort of reconciliation in his wider family and within his community in Yuendumu and in that regard we should be hoping for an early and a positive outcome for all concerned.

I would want 4 for Boak if I was PA but I am not, so I agree with BH on this one. We have to back ourselves to get them right. Only trade it if an out-and-out star comes up for bid. Although I would give Pick 4 for the 17 year old mini draft, but only if a player or Pick 13 is included and we get BOTH picks. Because I am struggling to see the great plus in giving Pick 4 for a talent that would probably be just as good a bet.

Pavlich, N Riewoldt, Hodge, Judd, Ball, Bartel, Goddard, Wells, Deledio, Roughead, Griffen, Franklin, B Reid, M Murphy, Thomas, Pendlebury, Gibbs, Selwood, Hartlett, Naitanui, Martin, Cotchin, Rioli, Dangerfield , Kennedy (WCE) are but some of the quality players taken at the pointy end of the draft. That is what "the industry built around statistic (sic) analysis" says to me. 'Oh but the MFC effed it up in the past & therefore will eff it up in the future' - is the line of gutless spivs who buy into the 'industry' of superstition & voodoo. Indeed Mitch Clark is a great reference point but one that you miss - he was a top 10 pick. So we are to trade for two established top 10 pick worthy midfielders? Who & at what cost? Do we offer them the same kind of massive coin that Mitch Clark is on? Wouldn't it be far simpler with the age of our list, wage structure & current appeal to draft our own two top 10 worthy midfielders?

But apart from that welcome to the Madhouse

Nasher to the rescue! ..... Again! This is why we need donations folks. Nasher deserves a raise. http://www.demonland.com/donate.html or Subscribe to Demonland here - http://demonland.com.../subscriptions/

Sometimes I struggle with economies of scale, but I'll try and make brevity my friend. When will (some) supporters realise that stars win you premierships ? Yes, I know that stars surrounded by duds isn't recommended and it's patently obvious a club tries to build depth through to their 28th best player, but stars elevate clubs to completely different levels. Where do stars usually come from ? The best chance of drafting stars is with top 10 draft picks. It's not a matter of collecting early picks because they're cute and shiny, it's about maximising your opportunities in order to win a flag in an 18 team competition. They're not getting easier to win and if you don't have stars you simply won't win one. It's worth repeating, if you don't have stars you won't win a flag. How do you get stars to your club ? If we'd used our last 9 top 20 draft picks without missing a beat we'd have a premiership quality list right now. The facts are we didn't and we don't, but early picks give you the best chance if you nail them. There will always be a Nathan Fyfe, Dane Swan, or James Hird who aren't drafted at the pointy end, but they're few and far between. What do the following players have in common: Franklin, Roughead, Deledio, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Selwood, Bartel, Murphy, Judd, Hodge, Griffen, Cooney (pre knee), Pendlebury, Thomas, Goddard, Pavlich, Didak, Corey ? Top 10 picks. And yes, there are more average top 10 draft picks than guns. You have to make the right choices. But the best players will usually come from the best picks, or F/S's. Dangerfield was top 10 and he's well on his way to star status; and the best player at our club, Mitch Clark was also a top 10 pick. It's not rocket science. It stands to reason that if you have early picks and access to the best talent in the land you're at a supreme advantage if you get the picks right. Even just after pick 10 you'll often get good results, such as early teen picks like Hayes, Jack Riewoldt, Sidebottom and our own James Frawley. We don't go out to "win" early picks, but they put you in the game. Does anyone doubt that this draft will unearth stars ? There will be stars from this draft and that is an out and out certainty. What odds are there of getting a star or two when you've got two of the first 4 picks in a draft that is recognised as having terrific talent early on ? I'd trade pick 13 and a player for Boak, but I'll be gutted if we trade pick 4. And just because I'd trade Tapscott to improve our list doesn't mean I don't rate him, it means I do.

No, I think they know what they are doing with talent when they get their hands on it. Thankfully I feel that way about Misson and Craig.

For people bagging Cook - What target are you planning on kicking to when we are struggling for goals??? A couple of backmen?? Or Stefan Martin who can't play forward?? Its not going to destroy our finals hopes (although you were probably the ones who had us down for 6th spot), play Cook, let him learn, give him a taste so he knows what it takes at the top level. We have nothing to lose & we have to see how he goes sooner or later, for those of you saying hes a twig hes the same size as Watts & Cameron. From all reports he's been doing well at Casey, may not of been kicking bags lately but has been performing his role well up the ground. I just don't understand the people who cry because we have no one to kick to yet don't want to see or give a chance to a pick#12 All Australian CHF. He may not play this week but I'd expect to next week for sure.

Thanks again for keeping this place going. I think we should do a 'pledge' week every year where we try and get new members to pay up and Lifers to give something. Maybe coincide with a yearly Etihad game. 'Go To Hell - Give To Demonland' I don't think the two are interrelated - I just wanted to use the term 'go to hell' as a double (or triple) entendre.

You actually hit upon a vein of thought ive had for a while. Some seem to think its not actuallyabout footy, not actually about winning its another game entirely. Weve had it wrong. Its a new age collectors game and the prizes are draft picks and adding to a pile of "potential" stars. Of formig the best 'papaer; team that might be possibly a world beater in 3-6 years as they develop according to their draft-blurbs.We arent winning now but by crikey we might have a really decent team in a few years time if these guys come on. And as soon as a few spuds and duds rear their ugly heads its back to the drawing board and trawling for new 'potential stars' via these golden picks. One day.....one day...... but not now is the mantra of these football followers. Heres the thing. Draft picks are like money. They are totally useless unless used wisely and timely. Some people make fortunes from a $100 , some go pauper having had millions. Money/picks..... they are a means to an end..they are tools of trade. A lot of people need to stop thinking this is some sort of competition whereby the team with the most picks wins. The team with biggger score at teh end of 4 qtrs is the winner in footy. Thats all we need to concentrate on and exchanging picks for players is fine by me. After all , isnt that what you do with picks... pick a player ?

Life member. I'd like to reach out to all the lurkers such as myself who don't have much to say but read and therefore benefit, daily. Give to the site that keeps on giving (ludicrous trade scenarios, ranting and raving, extremely premature draft prospects and crusty old farts with no optimism mixed with a bunch of school kids on holidays). It's all good, unfortunate player bashing aside, most of the time and well worth being a part of. Put your money where your keyboards are!

I'd trade any pick for the RIGHT price. Geez some of you guys are acting like draft picks are the reason we play! We play to WIN games not get the highest draft pick we can....

Easy...we can jump them and staart 30 mins earlier !! too easy No one will notice... no one will be there..

Still having a bad day. Fitzpatrick is seriously quick for a guy his size. I find it hilarious that people honestly think that all our problems will be solved by drafting 18 year olds and other clubs fringe players. At the end of the day we have to stop looking for the quick fix and start developing our list from within. I expect at the end of the year 4-6 players will be moved on as is the norm every year.

Whatever happens with Cloke, I love one simple fact. And that is this - we clearly have loads of cap, and picks, and the intent to get serious in hunting the quality players in the league. In short, we are becoming the hunters. Our offers now scare some of the big clubs. This is a lot different to previous seasons where we're either not taken seriously when big names are discussed or we have to pay 'overs' simply to retain our own senior players. Despite our ladder position, I'm actually enjoying this aspect of the year.

Waiting for my annual to expire then buying another annual. Refuse to buy a lifetime because I know I'll go 'but I already did my bit!' in two or three years. Annual means that I'm both going to continue donating AND that you guys keep getting something. Thanks so much for the work by both Andy and Nasher.

2013 Hyperthetical fwd line: Full Fwd Jurrah Clark Cook Half Fwd Howe Cloke Sylvia potentially very damaging Mids Jamar Jones Trenners Gys Viney Blease Toumpass Stringer starting to get hard Defenders Chip Garland Rivers Watts Grimes Tapscott Strauss God I hope we start performing, On paper thats a cracker list

I'm confident. Should probably go see a doctor.

I think you misnamed this thread. It should be "dead forest".

Donald 'duck' Dunn,,, R.I.P. Stax bassist Donald 'Duck' Dunn dies Updated May 15, 2012 08:49:19 Photo: Dunn played on soul classics Respect and In the Midnight Hour. (Wikimedia) Map: United States Grammy-winning American bassist Donald "Duck" Dunn, who helped shape the blues and soul music scenes in the 1960s and 1970s, has died in Tokyo. He was 70. A former member of legendary band Booker T and the MG's, Dunn died in his sleep in a hotel room in the Japanese capital after performing two shows at Blue Note Tokyo, according to a Facebook entry of friend and fellow band member Steve Cropper. A house bass player at the Stax label in Memphis, Dunn's fingers worked the frets on a number of classics, including Otis Redding's Respect and Wilson Pickett's In the Midnight Hour. As well as playing sessions with names like Neil Young, Eric Clapton and Jerry Lee Lewis, Dunn earned himself a little Hollywood glitter when he appeared as himself in The Blues Brothers starring comedians John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd.

"We had a band powerful enough to turn goat [censored] into gasoline!"

Their assistant recruiting officer was absent.

Cloke is a hard working CHF that runs and runs. Even with our poor midfield, our boy Clark managed to kick goals - imagine Cloke in there.... One leading one way, one up the guts and Jurrah by himself. Roll on 2013. Toumpas, Viney, Caddy, Cloke, welcome to the MFC.

In for life.

There we go, a paid up Lifetime member. All your time is greatly appreciated and I totally enjoy reading the posts. Been a member supported of the club ever since I was a five year old and asked my dad who I should follow, unlike most Carlton supporters, he said follow Melbourne as they'll give you a good go, and so it began which has followed onto my son and my 3 grand-daughters......tradition continues....

I am also now a life member, subject to Paypal's eccentricities. Am i allowed to talk to lesser supporters on the site? Seriously, thanks for all your efforts Nasher. It makes supporting the club from a distance a little more bearable.

He's 15 you [censored].

It was probably on the same page of the Recruitment manual that said interview Dustin Martin

I hear what you're saying, but I just think from a culture point of view we have to reward him with a game.

I'd be happy with this. It gives us a real structure and makes our recruiting so much easier. Having all of our big men in place means that we can focus on runners, which come on more quickly. Having Cloke and Clark in tandem for the rest of the decade makes us ultra dangerous. One of the reasons for the two key forwards is to get the ball inside 50. One pushes up to the footy whole the other pushes back to goal. We have been hearing the club constantly talking about prepaying contacts to create free agency room. Think about the $5m as being paid in the last few years, rather than in the next few. That means that we could get him, effectively, for free through FA.

what about cloke vs (spencer, morton, bennell and davey)

The purpose of an AFL Club is to win premerships. Having debt is just apart of running a business. Unless your Apple and have cash to burn. Going into debt to buy a star player is a big risk. Sometimes you gotta spend money to make money. Getting Cloke would be huge for the club.

Anyone remember that quote by Eddie 'We are not like Melbourne where you can take players as you like'

lol @ how much freo would hate us, taking both of there potential power forwards they were chasing.

Going after Cloke is an absolute no-brainer. Firstly, one of our biggest failings is getting through half forward. Can you imagine getting used to Jack Watts passing off half back, spotting up Cloke at CHF, who then wheels around and bangs it into Clark? Not to mention, can you imagine how berserk Clark will go against the SECOND best defender on each team? That thought actually frightens me. There aren't any star mids going around, so why not go after what is available? We can load up on guns mids in the draft, rather than via FA. Secondly, in terms of $$, we have heaps to spend. If anybody is worried about cap issues with our potential stars in a few years, I say let's cross that bridge when we get to it. You never know, at that point we might actually be in contention and they might be willing to cop a bit less. Cloke allows Howe to play in the midfield permanently and Watts would never need to play forward again. Garland and Rivers go back to where they belong. I'd take the known quantity of Cloke over the 'Cook will be a gun, just give him time' stuff any day of the week. Why are we even discussing this???

Their just playing with our minds, not that there is a lot to play with.

Why is this game at Etihad? 1 game at the MCG all weekend...on Saturday night. A Friday night or Sunday arvo game would have made sense.

Sounds a wise idea jaded. Result will be between 8 and 10 goals Will depend on how many kicks Mckenzie, Bail, and Trengove spray into the forward line or out on the full. Green and Davey seem certain to play so I will revise that 5 goal win to freo.

Dockers at Docklands - Dockbuster!!!

Agree that he is being judged extremely unfairly by some this year. It seems there is no understanding of the seriousness of his injury, and the impact that has on fitness, physical ability and confidence. Colin is starting to become a super player and I will back him all the way. Massive fan here.

A good/great key forward or in fact 2 of them can improve a midfield . Suddenly a midfield group have 2 terrific targets . The midfield can be more decisive in their actions , for various reasons . The good forward knows where to lead , can play in front all the time etc etc and in general provides a better target . Good key forwards have the effect of straightening a team up . It's hard to measure but it's a reality . And it can extend , and often does , to the half back line . As an example , Collingwoods half back line of Davis , O'Brien and Shaw grabbing the ball , running through the lines and launching it towards their twin towers (either down the middle or when they went wide) Good key forwards add confidence to a team . Cloke would be of enormous benefit to our team .