2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He's bang on, look at Oliver, looks completely out of shape and one stage I saw him hunched down trying to catch his breath and he looked in terrible shape.

Selwyn and Goody need to come under close scrutiny. Bringing back underdone players has finally caught up to use. We simply could not keep up with Fremantles outside spread and work rate.

Be careful what you wish for. Binman will now blame fitness or heavy loads on our loss. The problem is much deeper than that. Unfit teams have a tendency to have terrible last qtrs. Our last qtrs have been pretty good this year. Even Kane Cornes noted how fit we looked against Port 2 months back (considering the guy is a fitness freak I’d trust his judgement).

I agree we are probably carrying a few players who aren’t fully fit but which team isn’t these days?

Like everyone else on here, I’m just guessing, but my best guess is there’s a disconnect between the coaches and the players surrounding the game plan. The players no longer believe it works and when you’re not 100% invested, then effort can fall away quite quickly.

14 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

We'd have a three year payout I believe. It would cripple our soft cap spending.

TBH I think Goodwin has the right or at least a better gameplan but he's two years late at implementing it at the Casey level and one year late at the AFL level

I dont think new coaching contracts are setup like they used to be. I could be way off here - but isnt the payout something like 6 months these days? i recall hearing this when other coaches have been discussed.

Is there a divide ....not so much between.players and coach...    or players and plan...    as much as the players.

Is there a rift..   It happens...  just wondering. 

That game was a result of what happens between the ears.

There's  something  nqr about all of this.

Like a volcano.    Just my opinion 

39 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

It's less about one loss, and more about how we lost.

That was an un-Melbourne like performance. I was ok with the losses to Brisbane and West Coast, because the competition is so even and we were just beaten by a team that played significantly better on the day, and we at least managed to win back some momentum at times.

But to completely stop playing and get destroyed in every single statistic yesterday was unacceptable. -41 in contested possessions is Neeld-esque level putrid. 

We can't keep glossing over these performances and say they aren't a litmus test of our fortunes, because the loss and the massive drop in percentage yesterday may have just cost us a top 8 finish, let alone a top 4 finish. 

A good club with a good culture takes stock of where they are at, and are honest with one another. Burying our head in the sand will do nothing but continue the mediocre performances we've seen this season.

“That was an un-Melbourne like performance. I was ok with the losses to Brisbane and West Coast, because the competition is so even and we were just beaten by a team that played significantly better on the day, and we at least managed to win back some momentum at times.“

The WC game was disturbing to watch live. We were basically witches hats the entire game. Gifted them a 4 points training drill.  WC are still a mediocre team and we made them look like premiership material. A precursor of things to come. Freo game result looks worse because they are a better team than WC. 

Edited June 3, 2024Jun 3 by John Crow Batty

Bet all the Goodwin bashers also wanted Norm Smith sacked in 65. How did that work out?

The issue is list management. 

Since the flag:
Out: Hunt gone, Hibberd retired, Jackson gone, Bedford gone, JJ gone, Gus medically retired, JS on extended holiday, Grundy doing the Grandpa Simpson meme.

In: ????

You got to give your coach proper footballers to work with. Professional, athletic, aggressive, ideally with some skills too. We have failed to do that and instead collected a bunch of 28 year olds that other teams didn't want.

Goodwin's trying to evolve the game plan and list. Change isn't linear, these things take some time, especially when you're adding risk and asking players to use their skills when they didn't have to playing boundary ball.

We have the skills across half back to take risks. Salem's a beautiful decision maker. Bowey's a lovely kick. Judd's very balance and calm. Rivers' run and penetration can both be assets.

But unless they have a midfield and half forwards on the same page and running hard it won't work.

Sure, the coach has to take some blame for the demise of the midfield and getting sucked in to dud recruits, but ultimately that's not his main responsibility and no coach can make wine out of water.

 

26 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Bet all the Goodwin bashers also wanted Norm Smith sacked in 65. How did that work out?

The issue is list management. 

Since the flag:
Out: Hunt gone, Hibberd retired, Jackson gone, Bedford gone, JJ gone, Gus medically retired, JS on extended holiday, Grundy doing the Grandpa Simpson meme.

In: ????

You got to give your coach proper footballers to work with. Professional, athletic, aggressive, ideally with some skills too. We have failed to do that and instead collected a bunch of 28 year olds that other teams didn't want.

Goodwin's trying to evolve the game plan and list. Change isn't linear, these things take some time, especially when you're adding risk and asking players to use their skills when they didn't have to playing boundary ball.

We have the skills across half back to take risks. Salem's a beautiful decision maker. Bowey's a lovely kick. Judd's very balance and calm. Rivers' run and penetration can both be assets.

But unless they have a midfield and half forwards on the same page and running hard it won't work.

Sure, the coach has to take some blame for the demise of the midfield and getting sucked in to dud recruits, but ultimately that's not his main responsibility and no coach can make wine out of water.

 

NORM SMITH Coached the DEES TO 6 PREMIERSHIPS and got every ounce of talent out of all players. You cannot even contemplate a comparison to Simon Goodwin, who FLUKED a premiership and has wasted the last 3 years of what has been recognised as a Crack list!!

27 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Bet all the Goodwin bashers also wanted Norm Smith sacked in 65. How did that work out?

The issue is list management. 

Since the flag:
Out: Hunt gone, Hibberd retired, Jackson gone, Bedford gone, JJ gone, Gus medically retired, JS on extended holiday, Grundy doing the Grandpa Simpson meme.

In: ????

You got to give your coach proper footballers to work with. Professional, athletic, aggressive, ideally with some skills too. We have failed to do that and instead collected a bunch of 28 year olds that other teams didn't want.

Goodwin's trying to evolve the game plan and list. Change isn't linear, these things take some time, especially when you're adding risk and asking players to use their skills when they didn't have to playing boundary ball.

We have the skills across half back to take risks. Salem's a beautiful decision maker. Bowey's a lovely kick. Judd's very balance and calm. Rivers' run and penetration can both be assets.

But unless they have a midfield and half forwards on the same page and running hard it won't work.

Sure, the coach has to take some blame for the demise of the midfield and getting sucked in to dud recruits, but ultimately that's not his main responsibility and no coach can make wine out of water.

 

I put this 100% on the senior coach. His inability to rotate players through the side, tending to play his favourites injured over fresh legs has driven fringe players to explore options. Goodwin also controls who we bring in and what type of player. He is responsible for where we sit. List managers execute a strategy provided to them by the senior coach and footy manager.

If we continue to underperform it will be the senior coach who goes first. 

1 hour ago, Gawndy the Great said:

dont think new coaching contracts are setup like they used to be. I could be way off here - but isnt the payout something like 6 months these days? i recall hearing this when other coaches have been discussed.

I believe that was an AFL requirement if you were an AFL funded club such as GWS and GCS. I don't think we fell into that category.

Of course we could have put in a break clause but who knows

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/01/21/outgoing-aflca-ceo-lashes-disgraceful-clause-that-bails-out-moron-boards/

Outgoing AFL Coaches Association CEO Mark Brayshaw has slammed an AFL clause that allows clubs to sack coaches and only pay out six months of their contract.

The AFL made the move in 2019 for AFL-funded clubs and it kicks in regardless of the length of the coach’s contract.

Brayshaw called it a “disgraceful clause” that bails out “moron boards”.

“I’ll tell you how (the clause) gets through, the AFL says ‘we’re sick of stupid boards, moron boards, sacking their coaches and paying them out’,” Brayshaw told SEN SA Breakfast.

“I used to be on the board at North Melbourne for eight years and have no sympathy whatsoever for any board that extends a contract with its coach and then changes its mind and expects to give them a six-month contract.

“The good clubs don’t do that. The big clubs that don’t need the AFL’s money quite as much don’t allow that to happen and I think it’s shameful and I’ll tell you why. Footy clubs, the good ones, have got trust. They’re built on trust.

Edited June 3, 2024Jun 3 by Diamond_Jim

23 minutes ago, SPC said:

If we continue to underperform it will be the senior coach who goes first. 

Goodwin is very safe

yes it’s a terrible loss. The worst fr many years. But I’m honestly embarrassed to hear so much talk about sacking our only premiership coach since 64 and after 3 top 4 finishes. The coach is NOT the problem. 

32 minutes ago, picket fence said:

NORM SMITH Coached the DEES TO 6 PREMIERSHIPS and got every ounce of talent out of all players. You cannot even contemplate a comparison to Simon Goodwin, who FLUKED a premiership and has wasted the last 3 years of what has been recognised as a Crack list!!

Couldn't agree more with the first half of your statement, but to say Goodwin fluked a premiership is laughable.  Have a look at ALL of our finals wins in '21 and you don't 'fluke' 100 pts to 7 in the last 40 mins of a Grand Final.

9 minutes ago, greenwaves said:

Goodwin is very safe

Agree. I actually think Goody is a good coach and I applaud him for trying a new game plan, but we can’t have any stubbornness here. A good coach can recognise when something isn’t working and put his hand up and admit it.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Bet all the Goodwin bashers also wanted Norm Smith sacked in 65. How did that work out?

The issue is list management. 

Since the flag:
Out: Hunt gone, Hibberd retired, Jackson gone, Bedford gone, JJ gone, Gus medically retired, JS on extended holiday, Grundy doing the Grandpa Simpson meme.

In: ????

i would say...

IN (the best 23): van Rooyen, McVee, Windsor

also IN: Hunter, Billings, Howes, Jefferson, McAdam, Fullarton, Tholstrup, Woewodin

the biggest issue is that all the players we have picked up from other clubs have been nqr; our recruiting via the draft has been sound

of those you noted as out, only hibberd, jackson, gus were in our best 23

30 minutes ago, SPC said:

I put this 100% on the senior coach. His inability to rotate players through the side, tending to play his favourites injured over fresh legs has driven fringe players to explore options. Goodwin also controls who we bring in and what type of player. He is responsible for where we sit. List managers execute a strategy provided to them by the senior coach and footy manager.

If we continue to underperform it will be the senior coach who goes first. 

The coach is ultimately responsible but it’s up to the list team to be proactive. Hunter and Billings both came together late in trade periods when it was clear we had nothing else going for us. I can’t blame a coach for saying yes when he’s presented with something over nothing.

Goody presided over incredible list management to build the premiership side including making tough calls on fan favourites. And even some of his personal favourites like Melksham.

In hindsight I wish he gave JJ and Bedford more chances but aside from Hunter last year which I predicted at the time I thought the guys we were playing were better than those 2 at the time.

And they’re role players, it shouldn’t be hard to identify hungry role guys from the stage leagues or other teams who’d rather play in a good side. 

48 minutes ago, SPC said:

I put this 100% on the senior coach. His inability to rotate players through the side, tending to play his favourites injured over fresh legs has driven fringe players to explore options. Goodwin also controls who we bring in and what type of player. He is responsible for where we sit. List managers execute a strategy provided to them by the senior coach and footy manager.

If we continue to underperform it will be the senior coach who goes first. 

See Hunter or Salem for clear examples of that. Favourites will always play as long as they are fit, regardless of form.

10 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

i would say...

IN (the best 23): van Rooyen, McVee, Windsor

also IN: Hunter, Billings, Howes, Jefferson, McAdam, Fullarton, Tholstrup, Woewodin

the biggest issue is that all the players we have picked up from other clubs have been nqr; our recruiting via the draft has been sound

of those you noted as out, only hibberd, jackson, gus were in our best 23

The draft picks have been fine, we know that’s what Jason Taylor does. Although he hasn’t quite batted 1000 on first and second round picks (which was unsustainable of course) but has covered it with McVee, could do with a couple more success stories soon tho.

The recruiting of senior players has been something akin to the Neeld days at best. 

No plan, no targets, no creativity in finding undervalued players.

4 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

On SEN this morning Buckley’s analysis of our performance included the observations that in the aftermatch warm down he noted that body shapes of some players indicate they aren’t as fit as they should be and in general the team looked gassed during the game. He also believed such a poor performance and the demeanour of the players, lack of fight etc. tells him there must be off field issues at play. 

Ever since day 1 I have been skeptical on Sewlyn Griffith. He came from Brisbane and was heralded as some genius, but Brisbane where always far from the fittest team in the league. Then he starts implementing his own programs abandoning what we had done under Burgess who had real world samples proving we were fit. 

Every time we lose there's always some excuse about how we are loading this week and that's why we look leggy. We never looked leggy in 21?

6 hours ago, Jibroni said:

Watched the game live yesterday and in short this team simply has no mongrel or desire to want to be the best. I have never seen so many broken tackles or players unaccounted for, even Viney looked mellow yesterday.

I'm not sure if President Kate has the courage to make a decision that after yesterday appears closer to reality. Only a miraculous turnaround against Collingwood would change this perception.

 

I'd rather Roffey stay silent for once. I actually took some encouragement from Goodwin's press conference yesterday. It only took an absolutely disastorous performance to smack some reality into this club. All our wins where we scraped over the line with clear issues, all our losses being written off due to alternative excuse when the clear problems a lot of spectators can see are not being addressed.

I'd rather Goodwin not be sacked, here is his chance to prove himself, surely now he can't hide behind the W/L record and past glories that are fading into distant memory. Fix the midfield, fix the forward line and fix the gameplan. 

Quick list update and revision 

key defenders: May, Petty, Tomlinson, Adams 

tall defenders: Lever, D.Turner, Hore. 

med/sml/running defenders: Rivers, Bowey, Salem, Mcvee, Howes

inside Mids: Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Sparrow

outside Mids: Langdon, Woey jnr, Windsor

key forwards: JVR, Jefferson, Fullarton , Kentfield 

tall forwards: Fritsch, Sestan

small forwards: ANB, Pickett, Chandler, Throlstrup, AMW, K.Brown

Rucks: Gawn Verrell

thats 33

End of 24- retirements: TMCD, Melksham, BBB

Delist: Schache, JS29, Farris-white 

Must be delisted ( but probably won’t): Hunter, Spargo, McAdam, Laurie , Billings.  Offer nothing. 

18 minutes ago, MurDoc516 said:

Every time we lose there's always some excuse about how we are loading this week and that's why we look leggy. We never looked leggy in 21?

Middle of the year in ‘21 we lost to Collingwood (who were a bottom 3 side at the time) and looked awful. No run and horrible skills.

We’ve had some pretty awful results around the bye for the last few years. I’m not making an argument about anything one way or another, just stating the facts of our mid year performance the last 4 seasons.

Edited June 3, 2024Jun 3 by The heart beats true

Some pretty, expectedly, wild takes on here.

I just watched the Goody presser and he was clearly aiming his message at the players "you are not where you need to be" (consistent).

We absolutely got smashed in every facet and looked lazy and unskilled for much of it. Goody is absolutely putting it on the players to take responsibility for their performance.

I've mentioned this previously, but I don't think we have the pace or skill to compete the way we are playing (and being played!) at the moment.  I do think we have the cattle (when fit) to make a difference. 

Looking forward to seeing how the players (and coaches) respond.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not to concerned when considering that we tend to look flat in the lead up to the bye which I suspect is due to how we structure our training loads throughout the season. I had a quick look at our win/loss record back to 2018 and here is a summary of how we have performed in the lead up to the bye.

2023 - This is the only season we won in the lead up to the bye where we beat Carlton and then Collingwood. Lost the next 2 after the bye. Finished 4th.

2022 - Lost 3 in a row vs Freo (MCG), Swans (MCG) and Collingwood where we looked flat and disinterested. Won the next 2 after the bye. Finished 2nd.

2021 - Great wins vs Doggies (Marvel) and Brisbane (Sydney) before losing to Collingwood. Won 2 out of 3 after the bye. Finished Minor & Major Premiers.

2020 - Did not have mid season bye due to Covid. Won 3 out of 4 btw rounds 10 - 13. Finished 8th.

2019 - Lost 4 in a row leading up to the bye and won 2 out of 3 after the bye. Finished 17th.

2018 - 6 wins and then a loss before the bye before losing the next 2. Finished 5th.

Our performances have been pretty mixed all season this year where it looks like we're spreading the load more particularly through the midfield and also being more aggressive with our ball movement. We have been very ordinary the past 3 weeks where we haven't been able to defend the corridor, win contests or execute skills when the heat is on.

I reckon the Footy Department deserve some credit for 2021, how we started in 2022 and the position we put ourselves in last year despite our challenges with personnel in the forward half. I back them in to get us in a good position come September, we have heaps of upside and I'm expecting us to be switched on and sharp on Kings Birthday.

Let's see how we go over the next 5 rounds.

2 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Be careful what you wish for. Binman will now blame fitness or heavy loads on our loss. The problem is much deeper than that. Unfit teams have a tendency to have terrible last qtrs. Our last qtrs have been pretty good this year. Even Kane Cornes noted how fit we looked against Port 2 months back (considering the guy is a fitness freak I’d trust his judgement).

I agree we are probably carrying a few players who aren’t fully fit but which team isn’t these days?

Like everyone else on here, I’m just guessing, but my best guess is there’s a disconnect between the coaches and the players surrounding the game plan. The players no longer believe it works and when you’re not 100% invested, then effort can fall away quite quickly.

I'm sure binman can stick up for himself, but until he does come out and use that excuse give it a rest will you, it's become boring.

30 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Quick list update and revision 

key defenders: May, Petty, Tomlinson, Adams 

tall defenders: Lever, D.Turner, Hore. 

med/sml/running defenders: Rivers, Bowey, Salem, Mcvee, Howes

inside Mids: Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Sparrow

outside Mids: Langdon, Woey jnr, Windsor

key forwards: JVR, Jefferson, Fullarton , Kentfield 

tall forwards: Fritsch, Sestan

small forwards: ANB, Pickett, Chandler, Throlstrup, AMW, K.Brown

Rucks: Gawn Verrell

thats 33

End of 24- retirements: TMCD, Melksham, BBB

Delist: Schache, JS29, Farris-white 

Must be delisted ( but probably won’t): Hunter, Spargo, McAdam, Laurie , Billings.  Offer nothing. 

Key defenders: T. Mac can stay as a key defender (unless he wants to retire), Tomlinson will likely be let go, he's wanted out forever.

Tall defenders: Turner should be a defender, swinging him forward is in line with my number 1 gripe at the club, moving magnets to cover weaknesses we've failed to trade/draft for.

Half backs: Likewise with Salem, he isn't a mid, move him back to halfback. I feel as if his move to midfield was to justify a place in the team when he was out of form at half back because of the money he is on. I'd rather Rivers move as a mid over Salem.

Inside midfield list is suddenly very light.

Outside mids: again, very light. I don't see Windsor or Langdon having the ability to start centre bounce either.

Keyforwards: Kentfield is a complete unknown. Fullarton i can garuantee is a dud. JVR's progress actually looks better when you keep in mind how woeful we are with our entries. Jefferson, god help the kid as people begin to latch onto him like we did with Weideman.

Rucks: Another year in the legs for Gawn. Sole ruck at 33 this year, another area we must get cover in. Can't believe we didn't address this properly.

Retirements: I thought Brown and Melksham would retire for the last two years but they keep stick around. Both out of contract now though, so lets see.

Delist: Schache has a deal with the devil in that he can never be off an AFL list. Hunter, Spargo, McAdam, Laurie and Billings are warm bodies. They make up numbers so we don't have to recruit 12 players in one season.

Edited June 3, 2024Jun 3 by MurDoc516

4 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Geez losses are taken well on here. Yes it was terrible but not a litmus test of our fortunes.

We'll beat the Pies and everyone will be happy again.

Expecting to be roasted but anyway.

Two appalling losses in three weeks, both to WA sides, one that had only won 7 games in three years.

Yep. All good carry on.

 

Actually our game style over the last few games is resembling the 1993 Neil Balme model.  Handball handball handball.  First and second instinct. Handball. Handball.  Run through the middle free. Handball to a stationary player.  Try not to kick it.  Flick it around. But it comes unstuck with poor disposal or is too eased to read or you handball to a player under more pressure than you.  Dees 177 handballs (49% handball/possessions). Freo 35% as they used kick mark run style of play to destroy the Dees “guarding grass” zone.  
 

Balme's persistence with a strategic, high-possession, low-impact game plan earned both praise and ridicule. When the style succeeded it was attractive and hard to counter. However, when broken down by intense tackling, the players (and the coach) could look foolish and inept.