Aliir Aliir & Lachie Jones in Concussion Protocol

[binman 39,463]

1 hour ago, Dodos Demons said:

The doctor saying it was a “mistake” is such a cop out and smacks of a pattern of prior behaviour that escaped any serious scrutiny or challenge. The contemporaneous conduct of all those around the doctor at the time supports such a conclusion. When finally pulled up (and because it is so obvious) the doctor says it was a “mistake”.  Puulleeese. 

And I'd add that there are mistakes and there are mistakes.

Giving a free away for say having too many rotations is a mistake. As in the roos example from earlier in the year, it might cost a team a game.

Bur something I haven't seen much comment on is the potential scenario of Allir copping another head knock when he went back on.

He was all at sea for the rest of that game, and there was a huge risk of another head knock because he wasn't switched on i would have thought.

So the mistake might have resulted in serious injury, or perhaps even forced retirement for Allir, as had just occurred for max lynch.

Edited August 2, 2023 by binman

[Dr. Gonzo 22,785]

1 hour ago, Wells 11 said:

Just can’t see it being premiership points. It might have been if they had won though. I think it should be a first or second round draft picks and a huge fine with much of it suspended. ie 300k with 200k suspended taken from the soft cap. 

I think they've traded out this year's draft picks so would have to be 2024 draft picks.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dr. Gonzo

[Willmoy1947 3,850]

5 minutes ago, binman said:

And I'd add that there are mistakes and there are mistakes.

Giving a free away for say having too many rotations is a mistake. As in the roos example from earlier in the year, it might cost a team a game.

Bur something I haven't seen much comment on is the potential scenario of Allir copping another heaf knock when he went back on.

He was all at sea fir the rest of thst game, and there was a huge risk of another head knock because he wasn't switched on.

So the mistake might have resulted in serious injury, or perhaps even forced retirement for allir, as had just occurred for max lynch.

In the GF Bin. Got to be fixed hard.

[Deeminion 355]

The incident was terrible and letting Aliir back on was even worse and they also tried to sneak Jones' subbing off as a migraine and that should be the final nail in the coffin for getting a massive fine.

[layzie 30,246]

1 hour ago, Dodos Demons said:

The doctor saying it was a “mistake” is such a cop out and smacks of a pattern of prior behaviour that escaped any serious scrutiny or challenge. The contemporaneous conduct of all those around the doctor at the time supports such a conclusion. When finally pulled up (and because it is so obvious) the doctor says it was a “mistake”.  Puulleeese. 

Absolute total balderdash. The protocol for concussions would be right at the front of mind in AFL briefings to these staff at the start of the season. 

Serious head collision occurs, perform the test, sit player out for 15 mins minimum. You don't even need to be a doctor to remember that. 

[BDA 20,895]

I don't know which is worse.

Float the rules as this doctor obviously has (and the club). there's a pattern here.

Or claim it was a mistake and prove he is grossly incompetent.

Either way, he should probably lose his job.

[chookrat 3,850]

8 minutes ago, Deeminion said:

The incident was terrible and letting Aliir back on was even worse and they also tried to sneak Jones' subbing off as a migraine and that should be the final nail in the coffin for getting a massive fine.

I think there is some room for a Doctor to make a mistake re concussion, where for some reason they do not see an incident, noting in this case the incident was as clear as day and obvious to anyone who saw the footage that both players should take no further part in the game. The Jones 'migraine' substitution reinforces that the objective was to circumvent concussion protocols.

When it comes to penalties;

1. Considering we were fined $500k for bringing the game into disrepute when we made selection and positional changes to ensure we lost games to finish below a certain ladder position, Port should be fined at least this much for making a mockery of concussion protocols.

2. Because they sought a advantage to win matches by circumventing the protocols the most appropriate penalty should discourage this objective, e.g. taking away premiership points to the value of 2 matches or 8 points.

The AFL need to ensure this doesn't happen again and also include fines for bringing the game into disrepute.

[YearOfTheDees 3,137]

Fines are not a big enough deterrent the AFL needs to start taking match points off clubs. Even if this was us I would be calling for match day points. This has the potential to bankrupt the AFL. 

[BDA 20,895]

This would never happen at our club. Goody wouldn’t allow it. 

[Ollie fan 2,336]

4 minutes ago, BDA said:

This would never happen at our club. Goody wouldn’t allow it. 

That's true. He is quite admirable in that regard.

[layzie 30,246]

18 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I think there is some room for a Doctor to make a mistake re concussion, where for some reason they do not see an incident, noting in this case the incident was as clear as day and obvious to anyone who saw the footage that both players should take no further part in the game. The Jones 'migraine' substitution reinforces that the objective was to circumvent concussion protocols.

When it comes to penalties;

1. Considering we were fined $500k for bringing the game into disrepute when we made selection and positional changes to ensure we lost games to finish below a certain ladder position, Port should be fined at least this much for making a mockery of concussion protocols.

2. Because they sought a advantage to win matches by circumventing the protocols the most appropriate penalty should discourage this objective, e.g. taking away premiership points to the value of 2 matches or 8 points.

The AFL need to ensure this doesn't happen again and also include fines for bringing the game into disrepute.

If they didn't see it then wouldn't they be wondering why the player has come from the ground and needs treatment?

Hear what you're saying but this is a big bucks sporting league and they simply need to be better. Assistants watching, memorising the protocols, Ipads with Kayo for quick TV replay access etc. The tools are all there. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by layzie

[monoccular 16,595]

2 hours ago, SFebes said:

Let's see how dodgy the AFL are themselves are with how they handle this. You can't have this sort of thing happening and gotten away with yet rub players out for weeks for things like tackling techniques.

We can already see the AFL's "reaction"...... nothing, sweep under carpet, hope it goes away .... typical.

23 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I think there is some room for a Doctor to make a mistake re concussion, where for some reason they do not see an incident, noting in this case the incident was as clear as day and obvious to anyone who saw the footage that both players should take no further part in the game. The Jones 'migraine' substitution reinforces that the objective was to circumvent concussion protocols.

When it comes to penalties;

1. Considering we were fined $500k for bringing the game into disrepute when we made selection and positional changes to ensure we lost games to finish below a certain ladder position, Port should be fined at least this much for making a mockery of concussion protocols.

2. Because they sought a advantage to win matches by circumventing the protocols the most appropriate penalty should discourage this objective, e.g. taking away premiership points to the value of 2 matches or 8 points.

The AFL need to ensure this doesn't happen again and also include fines for bringing the game into disrepute.

chookrat - it was stated that the said doctor looked at the footage, the footage we all saw in horror, and said (paraphrasing) "nothing to see here" and let Alir back on.

That is not a mistake - it is either gross incompetence, or gaming the system, probably both.

[ElDiablo14 3,672]

7 minutes ago, monoccular said:

We can already see the AFL's "reaction"...... nothing, sweep under carpet, hope it goes away .... typical.

chookrat - it was stated that the said doctor looked at the footage, the footage we all saw in horror, and said (paraphrasing) "nothing to see here" and let Alir back on.

That is not a mistake - it is either gross incompetence, or gaming the system, probably both.

 

8 minutes ago, monoccular said:

We can already see the AFL's "reaction"...... nothing, sweep under carpet, hope it goes away .... typical.

chookrat - it was stated that the said doctor looked at the footage, the footage we all saw in horror, and said (paraphrasing) "nothing to see here" and let Alir back on.

That is not a mistake - it is either gross incompetence, or gaming the system, probably both.

Where's the AFLPA in all of this? They should be as concerned as the AFL, if not more.

[daisycutter 28,722]

port's judgement in trying to game the system using concussion  protocols was pizz poor at best.

shades of hird's 'whatever it takes  approach'.

then for ken to try and gloss over it post game only compounded it.

did they think millions of viewers would all of a sudden go blind?

[Diamond_Jim 12,097]

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I somewhat accept what Cornes is saying. I don't think we should rush to hang their doctor over this mistake. As best we can, the focus should be on the club as a collective and not an individual. 

Sorry the trigger for the first test is a simple visual check of the TV footage. Even if not clear the duty of the health professional is to err on the side of caution.

It's medical care 101... not brain surgery (deliberate pun)

[chookrat 3,850]

47 minutes ago, monoccular said:

We can already see the AFL's "reaction"...... nothing, sweep under carpet, hope it goes away .... typical.

chookrat - it was stated that the said doctor looked at the footage, the footage we all saw in horror, and said (paraphrasing) "nothing to see here" and let Alir back on.

That is not a mistake - it is either gross incompetence, or gaming the system, probably both.

Monoccular, my statement you highlighted was a general one followed by the sentence below specifically referring to the incident.

"....noting in this case the incident was as clear as day and obvious to anyone who saw the footage that both players should take no further part in the game."

What I'm trying to say is there is some chance that a Doctor may miss an incident but not the one in question.

[Dees_In_October 3,346]

I've skimmed this thread, so forgive me if already mentioned, but does the AFL have anything set in writing about the consequences for not following the concussion protocols in this manner? I'm assuming that, when putting those in place, they also would have foreseen that they might not be followed (given the obvious advantage of failing to do so) and designated some kind of penalty for that in advance rather than having to be reactive to a situation like this one? Too much to ask? Clearly.

I still remember a head knock I saw out at Casey Fields right in front of me, an opposition player from an interstate team that seemed under-resourced. It went unnoticed because it was on the far side of the ground away from any runners or medical staff, and with no video checks in place at the time. Most of the spectators were on the other side of the ground as well. There weren't even many teammates in the vicinity to force the player off. So, the player played on (it should never be up to the player to decide), and I felt helpless in my concern for that player, but what could be done?

But this Port incident occurred in full view of everyone - fans, viewers, players, coaches, medical staff, the AFL and the media. Such a blatant breach.

[Jaded No More 59,775]

43 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

 

Where's the AFLPA in all of this? They should be as concerned as the AFL, if not more.

Danger is too busy commentating and running Geelong obviously

[Gawndy the Great 7,961]

1 hour ago, chookrat said:

I think there is some room for a Doctor to make a mistake re concussion, where for some reason they do not see an incident, noting in this case the incident was as clear as day and obvious to anyone who saw the footage that both players should take no further part in the game. The Jones 'migraine' substitution reinforces that the objective was to circumvent concussion protocols.

When it comes to penalties;

1. Considering we were fined $500k for bringing the game into disrepute when we made selection and positional changes to ensure we lost games to finish below a certain ladder position, Port should be fined at least this much for making a mockery of concussion protocols.

2. Because they sought a advantage to win matches by circumventing the protocols the most appropriate penalty should discourage this objective, e.g. taking away premiership points to the value of 2 matches or 8 points.

The AFL need to ensure this doesn't happen again and also include fines for bringing the game into disrepute.

And given that this could dislodge Port from Top 4, sends a very loud and clear message that could not possibly be misinterpreted again, ever. 

A suspended fine is just a slap on the wrist.

Maybe they give them an option:

1- 8 premiership points and 100K fine

2- 5% of the compensation the AFL will eventually pay as part of current and future lawsuits on concussion. 

That should create a few genuine miagranes. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Gawndy the Great

[loges 6,335]

AFL.........crickets

[chookrat 3,850]

1 hour ago, BDA said:

I don't know which is worse.

Float the rules as this doctor obviously has (and the club). there's a pattern here.

Or claim it was a mistake and prove he is grossly incompetent.

Either way, he should probably lose his job.

BDA, the doctor is one cog in this and while they probably should lose their job and potentially have their medical license suspended, there is a whole line of people including the coaches and football manager who should step in and ensure the players enter the concussion protocol.

Looking at the trouble PWC are in re leveraging confidential information it obtained in advising the ATO on tax while at the same time leveraging the same information to profit by providing companies advice to avoid paying the same tax. In this case none of the Partners challenged what was happening. It seems what happened in Port Adelaide is similar and the sanctions need to be club wide and also address individuals that should have known better and had the ability to speak up or authority to act.

[deejammin' 2,096]

Should the AFL try its usual Modus operandi of “nothing to see here” with a slap on the wrist on a busy media day it will guarantee this continues to happen.

In this case Port didn’t go on to win and thankfully the player wasn’t hurt further but if a team is going to lose their best player to a mild concussion in a final we will see more migraines unless the AFL stamp this out now. It must be a HUGE fine or premiership points or preferably both.

We’ve changed almost every element of our great game to protect players from concussion and its future effects, if clubs won’t follow the rules we have the book should be thrown at them.

Failure to act on this undermines the entire AFL’s ‘commitment’ to protect players. 

[Wodjathefirst 2,448]

2 hours ago, BDA said:

This would never happen at our club. Goody wouldn’t allow it. 

And heaven forbid, had we, we would have been totally crucified. No proof, just me speculating. 
All clubs are equal, just some seem to be more equal than others.

[Jaded No More 59,775]

Now Port wants an independent doctor. How about just get a doctor who does the right thing? 🙄

[DubDee 21,898]

penalising points? are you guys joking?

Bombers didn’t even get that for drug cheating and putting the health of their entire list at risk