Let's try and pin point the actual issue.

[monoccular 16,539]

7 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

We are not a proactive team. We wait for something to happen before reacting. We play not to lose instead of trying to win. We are too concerned with try to limit the opposition scoring that we tend to forget how we should go about it ourselves.

Goodwin has continued to trot out that he wants the team to play a style of game that supporters recognise and believe in. Well he’s got the first part of that correct. Since mid 2022, he has reverted back to misoneism. 

misoneism - what a beautiful word to add to my lexicon. 🤗

[Demon Disciple 11,170]

6 minutes ago, monoccular said:

misoneism - what a beautiful word to add to my lexicon. 🤗

Yes I found it towards the backend of last year. It’s starting to reappear once more.

[Deemania since 56 6,303]

4 hours ago, Mel Bourne said:

Of late, specifically the last two matches, I think Fritsch’s slump has been making the crucial difference. 

Had he have made his usual contributions to the scoreboard we would have won both matches  

It’s pretty straightforward. He’s been our leading goal kicker every year since 2020, and he’s still our best in 23.

We rely so heavily on him to make the difference, and he is not delivering at the moment. It has to be an injury. But whatever the injury is, it’s affecting his confidence to the core, to the point his set-shots are uncharacteristically off  

Desperate for the guy to re-find his form. 

Some say “no Oliver, no team”, but really it’s “no Bailey, no win”. 

It does look that way recently, and really highlights his importance. He must feel enormous pressure as our only mobile forward - suffering a loss of goal accuracy in recent, critical games.

[JJR 608]

20 hours ago, BDA said:

Everything is so painfully laboured. Moving the ball seems like such hard work. Our handballs cause the receiver the break stride. No flow or fluency at all. No connection.

I suggest the team head off to Bali during the bye and blow off some steam (I'm half serious). Find some joy because at the moment we're playing joyless footy. 

Or sit around a camp fire and chill with each other. Not joking either.

[BDA 20,854]

1 hour ago, JJR said:

Or sit around a camp fire and chill with each other. Not joking either.

whatever floats your boat.

[Katrina Dee Fan 2,494]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:47 PM, bing181 said:

Whatever the issues are, the idea that the solutions are running round in the VFL is delusional.

For mine though, really missing:

- key forward. Has been Tom Mac and BB, but both are pretty horribly out of form/past it, which leaves JVR (tries hard but pushed aside too easily), Schache (there's a reason he's onto his 3rd club) or I don't know who (Smith?).

- second KPD. Our fearless backline was built around May, Petty and Lever ... in that order. Taking Petty out means that Lever is forced to play to his weaknesses (1 on 1) while at the same time we get no benefit from his strengths (intercepts) which is a double whammy.

I don't understand the narrative about BB being "horribly out of form/past it".  He kicked 9 goals in the first 3 rounds, had a minor back complaint, been doing well in VFL side, and for some reason can't get back into the side.  It makes no sense to me. TBH I'd prefer him in than TMac.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Katrina Dee Fan

[dazzledavey36 49,660]

2 hours ago, JJR said:

Or sit around a camp fire and chill with each other. Not joking either.

Couple of tins.

[beelzebub 22,671]

8 hours ago, kev martin said:

We don't play a tempo style game.

When we get the ball, it seems we go, go, go. Makes it physically demanding for the players, given how hard we two-way run by being a good transition team.

Need to play smart when we have the ball, search for the best, or at least, an unpredictable corridor. Pass the ball round a bit, if an angle off the line isn't clear, then stretch the opponents. When they find space, then go fast. Otherwise, we just go into the walls, as our runners are closed down and pressured by being outnumbered. That forces us to panic with the into 50 arc delivery, and allows the opposition defenders to easily pick the leads.

They need to be better at creating space, getting overlaps, finding gears (slow, medium and fast), and forming a swarm.

 

You had me at tempo.

Yep ...yep.. yep

Using appropriate tempo is THE key .  All the best teams have employed it.

You get to control the game ...your way.. you give your team mates time and space to get to or create position.  It creates uncertainty in the opposition. 

Shame we have none......

[loges 6,296]

18 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Highly disagree. We won the contested ball, won the tackles, won tackles inside 50, won centre clearances and lost stoppage clearances by 3 which means we probably won the clearances between the arcs and had more inside our forward 50 where we drop the ruck out and play 1 short.

Distance, speed in defence numbers all look fine.

Skill execution and a touch of structure (or more so structural break downs) were the problems yesterday not effort. It’s unfair to question effort. 

Also decision making 

[monoccular 16,539]

3 hours ago, JJR said:

Or sit around a camp fire and chill with each other. Not joking either.

Entrecôte anyone?  

[Roost it far 6,322]

1 hour ago, Katrina Dee Fan said:

I don't understand the narrative about BB being "horribly out of form/past it".  He kicked 9 goals in the first 3 rounds, had a minor back complaint, been doing well in VFL side, and for some reason can't get back into the side.  It makes no sense to me. TBH I'd prefer him in than TMac.

Watch Harris Andrews (BOG) against us. Brown kicked 3, meanwhile his opponent helped set up the Brisbane win.

[loges 6,296]

1 hour ago, Katrina Dee Fan said:

I don't understand the narrative about BB being "horribly out of form/past it".  He kicked 9 goals in the first 3 rounds, had a minor back complaint, been doing well in VFL side, and for some reason can't get back into the side.  It makes no sense to me. TBH I'd prefer him in than TMac.

Really wasn't going that well until yesterday 

[Demon Dynasty 16,192]

FCS Goody / FD & Leaders....Kill the super loose fold back zone inside 50 & higher!!

Gives the oppo too much room.  Allows constant switching, control & possession in their back half.  Keepings off if you like.

This gives the oppo some massive advantages...

1.  More time with the ball in hand while we run our butts off and expend energy.

2. Relatively easy exit to the half way mark most of the time under little pressure unless there's an unforced error.

3.  Easy yardage

4.  Teams who have very good or better defenders by foot are going to take advantage.  It brings VG users of the ball into play eg;  Hayden Young on Sat who on a good day can run the ball out 25 meters then hit a target 40 meters away with pinpoint passing.  The next kick is heading into our 50 or close to it!  That's two kicks!  No time to get effective numbers back.

5.  Allows too many launch kicks deep into our 50 or to leading forwards.  The latter achieved by constant switching under lowish pressure across the middle of the ground until a forward presents or a hole opens up deep for someone to lead into.

6.  If the opp is disciplined, patient and skilled, with a few hard leads they won't turn the pill over as often and shouldn't given they are not having to expend much energy to that point as they're under minor pressure.  This limits our turnover capability and takes away a major strength.

7.  Multiple medium kick switches.  Less running for them.... more for our Mids & Forwards.  Over short periods fine.  Do it over a few quarters a la Freo and it will eventually wear the mids and some forwards down until they are spent.

8.  As a result of No.7  ... even when there is a turnover....most players are so exhausted getting back towards goals and presenting etc that their kick at goals is even more compromised than usual resulting in ordinary accuracy or bad misses in front of the sticks.

This is not hindsight either.  Mentioned this prior to the Freo game and have done so a number of times over the last few seasons.

When we tighten up here from the get go you can usually see we're more switched on.  Causing turnovers in more dangerous parts of the ground etc.  Playing loose as we did on Sat you can almost G'tee a loss unless the oppo are bottom 4 or thereabouts and/or having a bad day in front of the goals.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,064]

On 5/28/2023 at 4:55 PM, Flower Magic said:

There are currently two elite players in the competition whose form and confidence is shot to pieces, and it is causing a major problem at their respective clubs - Harry McKay and Jake Lever.

That's because a certain Third tall isn't playing next to him.

[Demon Dynasty 16,192]

5 hours ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

That's because a certain Third tall isn't playing next to him.

INCREDIBLE THAT THIS STILL HASN'T BEEN ADDRESSED OR AT LEAST TRIALLED!  GOODY & THE FD ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL!

Might be able to solve this by bringing in the 2nd tall defender option .... this week Tomlinson against the Blues?

Tomo takes whoever tends to take his marks/leads up around the arc more often out of Curnow & McKay.

Tomo's in his best form all year at Casey last few matches but still wouldn't want him anywhere near the goal square.  Imho he's a tad more solid playing a more traditional CHB posi away from goals as much as possible where he gets the yips (resulting in clanger goals) and often in the road of the likes of May & Lever.

May takes whoever plays closer to goals more of the time.

Other weeks it might be Disco against slightly smaller 2nd tall set ups.

The above are fill ins only until Petty comes back.

Bottom line, we need to free up Lever as first priority.  Petty forward should not be our priority and only used if it is possible to bring in Disco to take a medium 2nd tall.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[Roger Mellie 3,633]

Without commenting on our game plan, players out of form and injury issues, I think our problem is our inability to adapt to change in game. We have this unshakeable faith in backing our system, but it's quite easy to dislodge, then our structure falls apart in-game. This can be done by savvy coaches throwing curveballs at our system - eg Brad Scott with their tall timber makeshift forward line - we couldn't adapt. Eg. Hinkley with Port. Dimma did it too but this is the only game where we could overcome the curveball - because Tiges not good enough for long enough. Secondly, the loss of key players throws our system out and we can't adapt. When Gawn went down with the knee injury earlier in the year, we immediately fell apart. The players couldn't adapt to Grundy as the sole ruck in-game (Grundy probably also wasn't match-fit enough to carry the whole can). Clarry, the same! There are also systemic shifts we're still trying to adapt to - two key defenders. It has worked at times but with Petty out and the forward line dysfunctional, it can fall to pieces too.

It's all well and good saying we back our system on repeat but it's really quite shakable.

[layzie 30,127]

12 minutes ago, Roger Mellie said:

Without commenting on our game plan, players out of form and injury issues, I think our problem is our inability to adapt to change in game. We have this unshakeable faith in backing our system, but it's quite easy to dislodge, then our structure falls apart in-game. This can be done by savvy coaches throwing curveballs at our system - eg Brad Scott with their tall timber makeshift forward line - we couldn't adapt. Eg. Hinkley with Port. Dimma did it too but this is the only game where we could overcome the curveball - because Tiges not good enough for long enough. Secondly, the loss of key players throws our system out and we can't adapt. When Gawn went down with the knee injury earlier in the year, we immediately fell apart. The players couldn't adapt to Grundy as the sole ruck in-game (Grundy probably also wasn't match-fit enough to carry the whole can). Clarry, the same! There are also systemic shifts we're still trying to adapt to - two key defenders. It has worked at times but with Petty out and the forward line dysfunctional, it can fall to pieces too.

It's all well and good saying we back our system on repeat but it's really quite shakable.

This season it has seemed very difficult to get a game onto our terms. What we've tried to implement over the off season is likely exactly how we want to play but for whatever reason week to week we are just unable to get this happening. 

On the weekend it was Freo with their very organised back six and some relentless pressure in the middle of the park. I still think they have the firepower in the front half to really scare anyone but on this day what they did was enough to get it done. 

The unpredictability that player changes make has not had a great effect, as you said having Max go down early and then have to play with Grundy after his second game threw everything out of whack. Its having an effect in the opposition as well, when Darcy goes down or Port go in with no name and disruptor ruckmen. 

I feel like if both sides are at full strength Melbourne has a better chance than if the opposition is missing a few and we have to adapt to the unknown. 

[beelzebub 22,671]

We had a perfectly good and near impenetrable backline...that wasn't broken...

But we fixed it anyway......

[DeeZee 6,889]

The competition has caught up to us and in some cases gone past us.

We should have won it last year again but injuries stopped us in the end.

Now we are just one of 5 or 6 teams that has a chance to win it and a lot would have to go right from now on if we are to do so.

Desire and work rate have a lot to do with it too , as does form and confidence.

We are not settled either, still experimenting with our forward line and backline talls in May and Lever are not as dominant as they once were.

 

[Superunknown 3,617]

12 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

The competition has caught up to us and in some cases gone past us.

We should have won it last year again but injuries stopped us in the end.

Now we are just one of 5 or 6 teams that has a chance to win it and a lot would have to go right from now on if we are to do so.

Desire and work rate have a lot to do with it too , as does form and confidence.

We are not settled either, still experimenting with our forward line and backline talls in May and Lever are not as dominant as they once were.

 

2022 Is going to look like a wasted opportunity in 10 years I think. Actually it looks like that now

[SPC 3,007]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

We had a perfectly good and near impenetrable backline...that wasn't broken...

But we fixed it anyway......

Opposition realised that they cannot bomb long to May, Lever and Petty. They have gone to work on using short passes and changing lanes to get shots 30-45m from goal. May and Co have no impact and our forwards need to man up and not just guard space when pushing back to defend. 
Collingwood will be a very bad matchup for us on their forward entries.
I think many of our issues can be addressed with a change of defensive style and some personnel. 
We need to adapt our game to take away opposition weapons, but Goody only focuses on “our style” which is not working. 

[loges 6,296]

If you go through our premiership side and list players that are still playing as well as then it's a pretty sad, short read.

[YearOfTheDees 3,126]

It's just a connection problem at the moment. The back-line problem is caused by the lack of pressure up-field. We also have too many players trying to save the day instead of the unselfish style we had in 2021. Little disappointed that the players coming in are not grabbing their chance to cement a spot.

However I believe we are building and it will click real soon.

[beelzebub 22,671]

6 hours ago, SPC said:

Opposition realised that they cannot bomb long to May, Lever and Petty. They have gone to work on using short passes and changing lanes to get shots 30-45m from goal. May and Co have no impact and our forwards need to man up and not just guard space when pushing back to defend. 
Collingwood will be a very bad matchup for us on their forward entries.
I think many of our issues can be addressed with a change of defensive style and some personnel. 
We need to adapt our game to take away opposition weapons, but Goody only focuses on “our style” which is not working. 

Very likely youre right..   very likely not to happen any time soon.

[Gawndy the Great 7,871]

22 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

FCS Goody / FD & Leaders....Kill the super loose fold back zone inside 50 & higher!!

Gives the oppo too much room.  Allows constant switching, control & possession in their back half.  Keepings off if you like.

This gives the oppo some massive advantages...

1.  More time with the ball in hand while we run our butts off and expend energy.

2. Relatively easy exit to the half way mark most of the time under little pressure unless there's an unforced error.

3.  Easy yardage

4.  Teams who have very good or better defenders by foot are going to take advantage.  It brings VG users of the ball into play eg;  Hayden Young on Sat who on a good day can run the ball out 25 meters then hit a target 40 meters away with pinpoint passing.  The next kick is heading into our 50 or close to it!  That's two kicks!  No time to get effective numbers back.

5.  Allows too many launch kicks deep into our 50 or to leading forwards.  The latter achieved by constant switching under lowish pressure across the middle of the ground until a forward presents or a hole opens up deep for someone to lead into.

6.  If the opp is disciplined, patient and skilled, with a few hard leads they won't turn the pill over as often and shouldn't given they are not having to expend much energy to that point as they're under minor pressure.  This limits our turnover capability and takes away a major strength.

7.  Multiple medium kick switches.  Less running for them.... more for our Mids & Forwards.  Over short periods fine.  Do it over a few quarters a la Freo and it will eventually wear the mids and some forwards down until they are spent.

8.  As a result of No.7  ... even when there is a turnover....most players are so exhausted getting back towards goals and presenting etc that their kick at goals is even more compromised than usual resulting in ordinary accuracy or bad misses in front of the sticks.

This is not hindsight either.  Mentioned this prior to the Freo game and have done so a number of times over the last few seasons.

When we tighten up here from the get go you can usually see we're more switched on.  Causing turnovers in more dangerous parts of the ground etc.  Playing loose as we did on Sat you can almost G'tee a loss unless the oppo are bottom 4 or thereabouts and/or having a bad day in front of the goals.

Good points. The defensive 'retreat' is the opposite of what Port and the Pies are doing. At least in 2018 we were manic with our forward half press. .