Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

1 minute ago, Gawndy the Great said:

It wouldn’t be helping one iota that the team is completely uncompetitive. If Clarko has been a little off in his demeanour/ intent or instruction as a result of the mental stress the allegations have caused , it’s not a long bow to draw that this has also impacted the team. Then there is the internal speculation/ judgement of the playing group on Clarko himself. 

Are you speculating about the internal speculation??

[Little Goffy 14,546]

Inept cowards at AFL HQ refusing to deal properly with an issue because they couldn't find a way to control the outcomes.

=

Absolutely everyone touched by this is being put through a slow pulverization.

[Jjrogan 1,420]

6 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

It wouldn’t be helping one iota that the team is completely uncompetitive. If Clarko has been a little off in his demeanour/ intent or instruction as a result of the mental stress the allegations have caused , it’s not a long bow to draw that this has also impacted the team. Then there is the internal speculation/ judgement of the playing group on Clarko himself. 

No question the stress of this would have affected his coaching and he knows this. So he's stepped away like a professional would.  Of course being 2 and 7 is not helping but neither would being 7 and 2. Tying any of this to norf's on field performance is way off imo. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

6 minutes ago, AzzKikA said:

He could still be guilty of treating indigenous players badly or in a rasist manner. AFL may be taking this long so it gets forgotten about and swept under the rug.

I'm not saying this is happening just saying that we shouldn't forget the real victims here, if there are any.

The victims / accusers  are not prepared to give any sworn evidence. In any public trial , the case would have been thrown out, so I’m confused as to why the investigation continues. 

When this initially broke I was heavily against the the way this was ‘leaked’ to the media for this reason alone.  Nothing has been achieved, nobody has been sanctioned and two notable figures have had their reputation tarnished based on a review that failed to interview the defendants? It is mind boggling how grossly unprofessional this has been.

 

[Orion 332]

Guilty or innocent you can't treat people like this. Toying with people's lives.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Orion

[rpfc 28,432]

No winners here. Awful stuff all around. I hope he gets some help. I hope for the well being of all involved.

[daisycutter 29,616]

the afl have announced that they expect the inquiry to be completed by the introduction of a tassie side in the afl, planned for 2028,  assuming no unforeseen circumstances.

[binman 42,972]

I said it at the time - and i'll say it again now.

It was of course wholly predictable that the media would focus on the alleged actions of Fagan and Clarkson because they are perfect click bait - but the focus on them from the get go was, and remains, a dangerous furphy.

(to be crystal clear I’m not suggesting Clarkson and/or Fagan did not do the things they have been accused of in the report, or minimising those allegations in any way. But we don’t know the specifics – they are contested and presumably will be addressed in any investigation. However, WE DO KNOW from the report there was poor cultural practices at the HFC and examples of very questionable cultural competency).

But not only is the hyper focus on Clarkson and Fagan unfair on them, it completely distracts from the critical questions that should be asked – was Hawthorn culturally unsafe, what quality and governance system were in place to make sure what has been alleged could not happen, what policies and procedures were in place, was there systemic racism at play etc.  

I have been involved in  accreditation, audit and review processes for a long time. One of the fundamentals of quality reviewing and auditing is that unless an individual is actively disregarding policy (and the obligation is on the org to make sure employees are aware of all relevant policies and how to comply with them), the fault falls on the organisation – in short if there is some system break down or poor practice it is the org not the individual who is at fault.  

For the sake of argument, let’s say that broadly speaking some of the more salacious specifics are contested. But it is accepted that senior coaching staff met with young Aboriginal players IN THEIR HOMES to discuss sensitive family related issues (like living arrangements, relationships) WITHOUT them having their own support networks present or involving family (even at that point in time, involving family was accepted good cultural practice – at least it was in the community sector where I work. One only needs to listen to Kozzie talk about his contract negotiations to understand why).

The first question should not be what specifically those coaches said or did in those meetings, but rather were they operating in accordance with the club policies and within HFC cultural practice frameworks – and did they even exist (and if so what ongoing training did staff receive to help them understand them and build cultural competencies and how are/were they reviewed to ensure staff are complying with them)?

What were the supervision practices in place to provide a forum to explore exactly such practice issues and support fidelity and adherence with the relevant policies?   

Another question is did Hawthorn, as part of accepted good governance, regularly review their cultural policies and practices? A related question is why did these issues take so long to come to light (at the minimum suggesting players did not feel comfortable raising issues)?

What were their complaints policies, were players aware of the complaint policies, were they encouraged and supported to make complaints, was the environment supportive of them doing so, what was the exit interview policy, what was the compliant management system, were these polices and systems adhered to etc etc.  

Very few, if any of these questions have been asked by the media. Almost all the focus and criticism has been on Fagan and Clarkson. It should be on HAWTHORN, who have copped very little blow back. 

And unhelpfully the focus has now drilled down on specifics that are always going to be grey, contestable and dependant on perception. 

For example Clarkson framed his discussion about partners as being an example of caring for his players. And that sounds reasonable. But from a cultural perspective, such a conversation is likely to be traumatic for an Aboriginal player (for example because family members were part of the stolen generation), particularly a young player trying to find his feet and a regular senior spot. And that is not even factoring in enormous power imbalance at play.

Maybe Clarkson didn’t understand the cultural sensitivities?   But if not, that’s on HAWTHORN, not Clarkson – unless of course Hawthorn can point to a strong cultural competence system and a rigorous process of ensuring compliance with that system. I may be wrong, but I’ll bet my bottom dollar they didn’t have one in place. And if they did, it failed because they clearly didn’t act at the time. 

The media has been playing the man, not the ball – and the Hawthorn Football Club (the ball in this hamfsited analogy) should have pushed back on this narrative and accepted their responsibility but instead allowed two former employees, one of whom their President is in open conflict with, to basically be the fall guys. 

I'm not trying to make Fagan and Clarkson the victims here (which by the by raises yet another reason why the focus on them is so damaging -  the commentary has devolved into how unfair it has been on Fagan and Clarkson and debating their innocence or guilt).  The actual victims are the Aboriginal players and their families. That is where the focus should be

But they are victims not of Clarkson and Fagan’s, butr their employers – the Hawthorn Football Club. It is the Hawthorn Football Club who is responsible for ensuring a safe working environment for all it staff - players and coaches alike.

And it is the Hawthorn board and senior management who should be bearing the brunt of all of this, not two of their ex employees.

Edited May 18, 2023 by binman

[Deefender 232]

Sometimes offence is taken when none was given.

[DubDee 25,867]

46 minutes ago, AzzKikA said:

He could still be guilty of treating indigenous players badly or in a rasist manner. AFL may be taking this long so it gets forgotten about and swept under the rug.

I'm not saying this is happening just saying that we shouldn't forget the real victims here, if there are any.

that’s the point - the result could be anything. he has been found guilty by media first before the review

[dees189227 12,394]

So you think he would come back when this investigation is over considering the findings and considering they are yet to be interviewed this could go on for many more months.

Poor ratts his 3rd time as taking over 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

Hawthorn have somehow come out of it unscathed, while the individuals involved are left hanging. 

God bless the AFL and it's complete lack of integrity. A joke of an organisation! 

I think it's called "protecting the brand" Jaded

Individuals are quite often the low hanging fruit in this large AFL jungle

Essendon drug scandal per se one example, where the AFL found the club had no case to answer and were cleared in the face of ASADA investigation.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[beelzebub 23,376]

23 minutes ago, deefender said:

Sometimes offence is taken when none was given.

Seems quite de rigueur in this day and age.

[Demonland 72,193]

 

[picket fence 17,169]

2 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

That is beside the point, coaching a rock bottom team is hard enough - add to that these allegations that are being drawn out, any normal person would have buckled a long time ago.

Yep agree 100%

[binman 42,972]

1 hour ago, deefender said:

Sometimes offence is taken when none was given.

Sometimes offence is appropriately taken when it is unintentionally given because people are not culturally competent (you don’t know what you don’t know).

And sometimes victims of a lack of cultural competence are asked not to take offence (when it is completely justifiable to do so), or worse are criticised when they do - or even accused of a having a 'victim mentality'. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by binman

[BDA 22,755]

All round shambles. 

If accusers aren't prepared to give evidence to back-up their claims, then the claims need to be withdrawn. Simple as that.

And Clarkson and Fagan are entitled to seek damages for having their reputations dragged through the mud.

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

2 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

That is beside the point, coaching a rock bottom team is hard enough - add to that these allegations that are being drawn out, any normal person would have buckled a long time ago.

Rhyce Shaw found it hard enough just coaching that team and had to quit for his own personal health after one season. 

I think coaching an AFL footy team, especially a bad one would be one of the most scrutinised jobs in the country.
The mental toll of having your name in the paper and on the radio everyday would be horrific. 

[forever demons 2,220]

I feel so sorry for him (ex dee player)I reckon hes just said [censored] all of you ,you ungrateful [censored] im out of here

[Satan 2,871]

Viney talked about his days at melbourne , dealing with bad situations

[binman 42,972]

13 minutes ago, BDA said:

1. All round shambles. 

2. If accusers aren't prepared to give evidence to back-up their claims, then the claims need to be withdrawn. Simple as that.

3. And Clarkson and Fagan are entitled to seek damages for having their reputations dragged through the mud.

1. Agree.

2. Strongly disagree. The 'accusers' don't owe anyone anything. They voluntarliy agreed to participate in a HFC initiated process. 

3. Agree. But if they want to so, then they need to seek damges from the HFC and/or the media for its reporting.

Edited May 18, 2023 by binman

[Demonland 72,193]

 

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

5 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

Interesting comment about burning his phone. 

Journo's must be ringing it off the hook

[BDA 22,755]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

Strongly disagree. The 'accusers' don't owe anyone anything. They voluntarliy agreed to participate in a HFC initiated process

Fair comment if accusers did not intend their comments to become public knowledge or be part of a process where they would be required to give evidence publicly / on the record to an investigation.

That being the case I don't see how this investigation can proceed. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

8 minutes ago, FritschyBusiness said:

Interesting comment about burning his phone. 

Journo's must be ringing it off the hook

i think he meant get a burner