Mark Maclure "Soft Culture" Comments

[Demongirl35 1,053]

He is right. We are soft as butter. 
Watching the practice game you could see the doggies trying to physically hurt our players and did not care if it was a practice game. The older players set the tone. They were hard at it and wanted to cause damage with their tackles. 
Something really needs to change at this club because if we have another [censored] year players will leave and it’ll only get worse and will they survive this time around since covid has happened and people just don’t have the money to help out again... 

This is all up to the players though. If they want to play hard then do it. If they want to change the culture then do it. All I can do is buy my membership and support them game day.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

59 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Being passionate about winning isn't the issue. If poor performances occur as a one-off you can excuse it but when it's a repeated pattern of behaviour (and I'm not talking about the practice match) then there is an issue.

Take the well told story of Ablett Jnr - thought he was doing everything he needed to do to be the best he could be. Was given some home truths by his peers who told him he wasn't doing enough, pushing himself enough, preparing well enough - took it on board and became the best player in the comp. Not everyone will be the best in the comp but everyone needs to push themselves to be the best they can be and the team as a whole needs to work to being the best team (ie working together as a group and working for each other). I don't see that in our team, the 1%ers etc If they did that there's no reason they couldn't be consistent top 4 finishers and from there who knows? As it is they can't even make finals except for one season. Finals should be a given, not the goal.

100% with you Doc. In a competition full of talent, the difference between winning and losing often boils down to the 1%ers. How often do we chase hard and tackle hard, or even sheppard for the sake of the ball user. It is this blind intensity we saw snippets of throughout the 2018 campaign but something we could never truly ingrain into the club's culture.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by CYB

[loges 6,767]

5 hours ago, Better days ahead said:

6 pages in and no one has mentioned the proverbial bathwater. We do like to admire our own work at times.

@Pates has given a great example of proper application and attitude during the Hawthorn final. Unfortunately we followed it up with an embarrassing prelim performance. Never fired a shot.

To be honest, what work would it be that we'd be admiring? We've done nothing but have a moderately successful 2018 in the past 50 odd years.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

4 hours ago, Doug Reemer said:

There's not a man in the media I hate more than this bloke. Probably right. But take a look at your own [censored] fight of a club.

He is one of the harshest critics of Carlton. We need to not be so precious when we get scrutanised by the media.  We either take it on as constructive feedback or put it in the Fugazi category.  Personally i think we need to take this stuff on board.  We have very little respect from other teams let alone the media.  Our insipid performances are the reason we have a target on our back.  Stop being a flaky side that puts in 100% effort for 100% of game and opinions will slowly change.  

Why do we need to keep ego's in check?  Is it possible some of our team are happy getting big sums of money and just happy being AFL footballers where pretty girls just throw themselves at them? They seem happy to just run around and get a kick at times to me.  Over last few years i can't think of one game we have lost where we have busted our guts for 4 quarters. 

We have a long way to go to reach Finals, let alone winning a GF. We simply do not work as hard as other teams for as long.   It is a shame, we have the talent.

[drdrake 3,178]

The hardest thing being a Melbourne supporter is going to games not knowing what side will turn up.  We are either on or we are off and the gap between the two are a mile apart.  Every club has bad games, the good clubs don't go from looking like a top 4 team one week to a bottom 4 team the next, their good and bad aren't that far apart.  

This isn't just the Bulldogs and Richmond games this year, this is basically been a massive issue for our club for an extended period of time.

We have turned the personal over players/coaches/administration/conditioning/medical, we have seen periods of a little light that we can be a successful club but this is short lived.  Jackson had us on the right path with assistance of Roos the future looked bright and now we seem lost again.  

It can be turned just takes the right people at the top, look at Richmond was a powerful club in the 70's, it was us and them the laughing stock of AFL, one club is still being laughed at the other will be in contention for their 4th flag in 5 years. 

[BDA 22,755]

22 minutes ago, loges said:

To be honest, what work would it be that we'd be admiring? We've done nothing but have a moderately successful 2018 in the past 50 odd years.

Our home finals wins. 

followed by the west coast massacre

[Old Man Rivers 326]

37 minutes ago, loges said:

To be honest, what work would it be that we'd be admiring? We've done nothing but have a moderately successful 2018 in the past 50 odd years.

Loges 20 odd years not 50

You disrespect the line ups we had from 87-94. 
Unlucky not to pinch a flag in that era.

98 & 2000 also had decent competitive sides on the park. Just ran into a once in a lifetime Bombers unit. 
Things might just turn around quickly when we least expect it. ?
 

[Sir Why You Little 37,042]

12 minutes ago, Old Man Rivers said:

Loges 20 odd years not 50

You disrespect the line ups we had from 87-94. 
Unlucky not to pinch a flag in that era.

98 & 2000 also had decent competitive sides on the park. Just ran into a once in a lifetime Bombers unit. 
Things might just turn around quickly when we least expect it. ?
 

We weren’t good enough OMR

Regardless of the opponents 

[praha 11,240]

Mate of mine is a Richmond supporter. He was telling me that even after they won the flag in 2017, he and Tigers supporters in general would still eat their own and go to games not quite knowing which Richmond would turn up. Even when they were 40 points up, they always had a "feeling" they would choke and lose. When they lost to Collingwood in the 2018 Prelim, even after two amazing seasons the supporter group was "same old Richmond".

He said it wasn't until they won the second flag in 2019 that he now goes into every game with a sense of excitement, knowing which side will turn up, and knowing they'll probably win. He also said it still feels weird to feel like that after 30ish years of utter crap. But it feels good. Richmond supporters have "turned the corner" and the club is no dominant.

I told him that it's a feeling I've never had except for maybe patches in the Daniher era; whenever someone asks me how Melbourne will go, my response is always "I have absolutely no idea". 

Maclure's comments at face value may be simplistic but he makes a point: culture helps establishes an identity. If you don't know or can't even predict an outcome, then the identity is lacking. We still don't know what this club or team really stands for. We merely "exist".

I'm optimistic for the season but anyone that can't acknowledge how lacking we are in the cultural department is delusional. Culture isn't immediately identifiable nor easily defined or articulated. But when it exists and when it's strong, you just know it's there. With Melbourne it's always just a shrug of the shoulder.

We have a long way to go to turning the corner like Richmond.

[Commissioner Dreyfus 49]

1 hour ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

He is one of the harshest critics of Carlton. We need to not be so precious when we get scrutanised by the media.  We either take it on as constructive feedback or put it in the Fugazi category.  Personally i think we need to take this stuff on board.  We have very little respect from other teams let alone the media.  Our insipid performances are the reason we have a target on our back. 

 

Well put! 

Its interesting to read some of the defensive reactions. 

Are his opinions completely 'unprovable'? Given the clubs trajectory of success of the past 50 years you'd hardly think so..

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Commissioner Dreyfus
Sp

[Old Man Rivers 326]

31 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We weren’t good enough OMR

Regardless of the opponents 

No dispute on that one. 
my point was 2018 has not been our only decent year in the last 50 years ?‍♂️

[Dr. Gonzo 24,221]

3 hours ago, BW511 said:

I haven't been around for the whole 56 years, but I think it's ingrained in the fibre of the club that a switch will just magically flick and we start winning. 

And when we do start hitting some good form, win a few games, make finals etc - we tend to think "see, we told you it would come" and rest on our laurels and fall in a heap. Why? Changing personnel doesn't fix it so how does the club sort it out? Again I agree with McClure the change and culture has to be driven by the players. Coach, FD, CEO, Pres, Board etc can create the right environment but ultimately it is up to the players to drive it.

What I want is consistency of performance. Results are just a by-product of this and they will come if the performance is consistent. And that means consistency across contests, quarters, games and ultimately seasons. Once it is ingrained it is much easier to maintain. I thought we were getting there in 2018, I don't know what the hell has happened since then.

[Sir Why You Little 37,042]

1 hour ago, Old Man Rivers said:

No dispute on that one. 
my point was 2018 has not been our only decent year in the last 50 years ?‍♂️

More to the point, in 1999 & 2001 we didn’t even make finals to extract Redemption. 
Good Sides bounce back hard against those losses 

[loges 6,767]

2 hours ago, Old Man Rivers said:

Loges 20 odd years not 50

You disrespect the line ups we had from 87-94. 
Unlucky not to pinch a flag in that era.

98 & 2000 also had decent competitive sides on the park. Just ran into a once in a lifetime Bombers unit. 
Things might just turn around quickly when we least expect it. ?
 

I don't disrespect those line ups at all, 87 - 94 was probably my favourite era especially the 1990 side who could have and should have beaten anyone.. Bottom line, they couldn't get the job done.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,221]

1 hour ago, loges said:

I don't disrespect those line ups at all, 87 - 94 was probably my favourite era especially the 1990 side who could have and should have beaten anyone.. Bottom line, they couldn't get the job done.

by the way 1990 was the only time since 1964 we have won 15 games in a H&A season (we won 16) - (actually it was the only time since 1958).

Every other club (except GC) has done it since 1999.

Last time won 15 games in a season

Adelaide - 2017

Brisbane - 2019

Carlton - 2000

Collingwood - 2019

Essendon - 2001

Fremantle - 2015

Geelong - 2019

GWS - 2016

Hawthorn - 2016

North Melbourne - 1999

Port - 2004

Richmond - 2019

St.Kilda - 2009

Sydney - 2016

West Coast - 2018

Bulldogs - 2016

 

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

And when we do start hitting some good form, win a few games, make finals etc - we tend to think "see, we told you it would come" and rest on our laurels and fall in a heap. Why? Changing personnel doesn't fix it so how does the club sort it out? Again I agree with McClure the change and culture has to be driven by the players. Coach, FD, CEO, Pres, Board etc can create the right environment but ultimately it is up to the players to drive it.

What I want is consistency of performance. Results are just a by-product of this and they will come if the performance is consistent. And that means consistency across contests, quarters, games and ultimately seasons. Once it is ingrained it is much easier to maintain. I thought we were getting there in 2018, I don't know what the hell has happened since then.

Spot on Dr 

In my 30 years following the club , season 2000 was our best season in which we only won 12 H&A games to finish 3rd!!! Even then we had a typical mid season slump and then finally got on a roll . 1994,  98 , 2004 all the same without winning consistently - even a couple of near 100 point drubbings in those years 98 & 2000 ! 
 

In terms of supporters we certainly are the 40 year old virgins when it comes to success ! 

 

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

5 hours ago, praha said:

Mate of mine is a Richmond supporter. He was telling me that even after they won the flag in 2017, he and Tigers supporters in general would still eat their own and go to games not quite knowing which Richmond would turn up. Even when they were 40 points up, they always had a "feeling" they would choke and lose. When they lost to Collingwood in the 2018 Prelim, even after two amazing seasons the supporter group was "same old Richmond".

He said it wasn't until they won the second flag in 2019 that he now goes into every game with a sense of excitement, knowing which side will turn up, and knowing they'll probably win. He also said it still feels weird to feel like that after 30ish years of utter crap. But it feels good. Richmond supporters have "turned the corner" and the club is no dominant.

I told him that it's a feeling I've never had except for maybe patches in the Daniher era; whenever someone asks me how Melbourne will go, my response is always "I have absolutely no idea". 

Maclure's comments at face value may be simplistic but he makes a point: culture helps establishes an identity. If you don't know or can't even predict an outcome, then the identity is lacking. We still don't know what this club or team really stands for. We merely "exist".

I'm optimistic for the season but anyone that can't acknowledge how lacking we are in the cultural department is delusional. Culture isn't immediately identifiable nor easily defined or articulated. But when it exists and when it's strong, you just know it's there. With Melbourne it's always just a shrug of the shoulder.

We have a long way to go to turning the corner like Richmond.

Its almost nostalgic now to think back a few years ago when even if we were terrible we could still always say “well at least we’re not Richmond !”

[P-man 13,366]

Fascinating stuff.

Maclure is the single laziest blockhead in the football media. He blatantly puts nil effort into his job and instead trots out the same football cliches as a substitute for saying anything remotely insightful.

And he actually gets away with it because our collective standards aren’t higher and he was part of a successful side in the 80s.

 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, P-man said:

Fascinating stuff.

Maclure is the single laziest blockhead in the football media. He blatantly puts nil effort into his job and instead trots out the same football cliches as a substitute for saying anything remotely insightful.

And he actually gets away with it because our collective standards aren’t higher and he was part of a successful side in the 80s.

 

Gee, he is only a part time footy commentator in a country with three footy codes, what do you want?

[cantstandyasam 700]

On 3/10/2021 at 3:39 PM, old dee said:

I actually think our current problem is not enough good players against the top half of competition. It is not unusual but as fans we tend to over rate our players ability.

Not only that we tend to carry players and aren't ruthless enough. We shouldn't gift anyone games and play our absolute best side each week. I want team success, I hope we don't play out of form players so they can get milestones. It has to be team first.Last year I felt players like Melksham knew they will never get dropped and therefore we carry out of form or players who are past it. I hope Jetta and Jones play well this year but if they are found wanting I hope Goodwin has the cajones to send them to Casey until their form warrants it or to tap them on their shoulder if they can't compete.

[Demonsone 2,037]

8 hours ago, Old Man Rivers said:

Loges 20 odd years not 50

You disrespect the line ups we had from 87-94. 
Unlucky not to pinch a flag in that era.

98 & 2000 also had decent competitive sides on the park. Just ran into a once in a lifetime Bombers unit. 
Things might just turn around quickly when we least expect it. ?
 

2 x GF in 56 years and a combined lost of 150 pts

After 2000 we failed to play finals the following year then making finals ever second year

After 88 we hung around finals until 91 and continued to drop games against weaker opponents thus just making finals

After 94 prelim we didn't play finals following year

After 2018 prelim no finals

Follow the pattern???

Just can't maintain the intensity and find a way to fall off the cliff!

Edited March 11, 2021 by Demonsone

[Beetle 4,660]

8 hours ago, drdrake said:

The hardest thing being a Melbourne supporter is going to games not knowing what side will turn up.  We are either on or we are off and the gap between the two are a mile apart. 

I just go to every game expecting a garbage performance and drink beer.

That way I’m prepared for when it happens and the familiar pain is numbed, or I get a pleasant surprise when we win and all of a sudden I’m already well on my way to a bender.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Dug up an old quote from 4x premiership player, former Demon and current MFC assistant coach (that relevant enough?):
 

"When I got to Melbourne, that difference in environment was really evident. It was so ingrained at Hawthorn that we almost took it for granted. I would walk into the locker room and it would be a bit messy, but I’d come from a place where there was not allowed to be anything showing. It gave off a feeling of professionalism, and that was one thing I picked up on.

You try to voice your opinion, but if they haven’t had it ingrained in them, people go, “Well, how is a clean locker room going to help me perform?” That’s hard to get across to a group that hadn’t really had that around for a long time. It took a bit of transitioning."

Culture shock: How to get it right on and of the field

[Older demon 2,741]

I remember Sellars in his playing days and off field as the party boy. I suspect his memory has been affected and he doesn't remember. The successful Carlton team of his day were an outstanding group of talented footballers but they played it pretty hard of the field. Wayne Johnson, Val Perovic, Maclure and co could out drink and out party anybody ( I remember at the Bears, Caulfield VFA, sunday night session the Carlton boys were there). So what standards is Maclure talking about? They never won practise games, weren't the hardest trainers but they did have enormous belief and a winning culture. A culture assisted by a very large cheque book. If Carlton had a deficiency they went out and bought the player. Remember how Kernahan, Bradley and Motley all joined Carlton at the same time. The introduction of salary caps, accountability and their own and salary cap rorts have seen Carlton slip. Yes they had a winning culture and expected to win but they also had the cattle and the money.

Ask who changed the culture at Richmond? Was it the players or did Dimma convince them that his style of footy would bring success with all making a contribution. Read the book Red Fox, this concept is nothing new as this is the spirit Norm Smith instilled in the players who just like Richmond years later committed to a team game. MFC also had a seriously talented group of young men led by harassing and tutored by Smith

It took Thompson 8 years at Geelong to mould the team and game style to win flags. Max is doing everything he can and this week I was pleased to read that the team have decided they need to be more selfless and I believe you have to fail a few times before you reach that state. The great coaches do it but it takes time and we are all impatient. Northey had it instilled with a team that wasn't over talented.

The only thing Maclure got right is that it starts with the coaches and players but I don't believe we have a soft culture and I certainly don't believe that our players don't go out with a fierce desire. Maybe we don't have enough talent or class in the right places.

[kev martin 9,893]

56 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Dug up an old quote from 4x premiership player, former Demon and current MFC assistant coach (that relevant enough?):

I think, it is different strokes for different folks. 

Some need order, some need the chaos.

The environment needs to be individualised, especially in an era that is supposed to support diversification. 

The act the same, look the same, deminishes those with a different cultural/social/spiritual/psychology aspect.

Wouldn't want to be Hawks, one size fits all.

Don't stand out, or be different as you will be ridiculed.

Put your "Grey suit on", work 40 years, don't rock the boat. The joyless parody of a life less well lived.

Discipline isn't the facades of conformity and group think.

Leave that to the corporates, or the art of war with the leaders and followers. 

 I want to see joy as well as success. 

You might have noticed, I'm anti establishment with conformity as its base for success. 

Gets success for a few and the rest of the plebs get the finger.

I want the laissez-faire method of management, not that authoritarian stuff.

Coaching style, I want what ever the coach is into. Trust has to be in that position. 

They are adults, treat them like that and they should act that way.

Did I read a bit too much into "a messy locker room"  as an analogy to conformity and culture, Nev?

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by kev martin