Flower was a champ and so is Maxy. It’s fun to debate who is the better but perhaps we should just be grateful we’ve had these 2 run around in the red and blue (and all the other champs mentioned in this thread as well). It’s not like we’ve been over endowned with too many greats over the past 50 years or so (imagine the debates that Hawthorn supporters can have by comparison ?)

2 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I'd say he's the best we've had in the AFL era. 
I've been watching for 30 years and he's got Neitz, Stynes and Lyon covered over that time.
(though there may be some stiff competition in Petracca and Oliver waiting in the wings)

Once we get into the VFL era (Flower, Barassi, etc.) we're going back too far for a meaningful comparison.  There are some players like Bradman that you can say with confidence are the greatest of all time, but player comparisons should generally be done within eras/generations, rather than across.

Carey is the best player that I have ever seen, though I can't say he's the best ever, as I never saw Matthews, Skilton, Bunton, Stewart or Coleman.

I too am tired of every current champion being referred to as 'GOAT' at the expense of those that have come before.

  

Saw a lot Mathews very clever and tough ,got as good as he gave out and true champion,Stewart was just amazing played above his size utter champion as was skilton

8 minutes ago, forever demons said:

Flower was a freak could do anything would go to game just to watch him,RDB was a great leader, inspiring and great natural footy player,if Gawn plays 250 games then we will know if he is GOAT  until then he stands in their shadow

I reckon if either Gawny Clarry or Trac were a Normie winner on Gf day with us winning the Flag  that might separate them for the modern AFL era!!! 

Post 1964 our best 5 are Flower, Stynes, Lyon, Neitz, Gawn

Trac and Oliver will be in there in a few years

15 minutes ago, 58er said:

I reckon if either Gawny Clarry or Trac were a Normie winner on Gf day with us winning the Flag  that might separate them for the modern AFL era!!! 

No not even close

I think by the end of his career he will easily be in our top 10 of all time. Everything from there on is just too subjective 

55 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I'd say he's the best we've had in the AFL era. 
I've been watching for 30 years and he's got Neitz, Stynes and Lyon covered over that time.
(though there may be some stiff competition in Petracca and Oliver waiting in the wings)

Once we get into the VFL era (Flower, Barassi, etc.) we're going back too far for a meaningful comparison.  There are some players like Bradman that you can say with confidence are the greatest of all time, but player comparisons should generally be done within eras/generations, rather than across.

Carey is the best player that I have ever seen, though I can't say he's the best ever, as I never saw Matthews, Skilton, Bunton, Stewart or Coleman.

I too am tired of every current champion being referred to as 'GOAT' at the expense of those that have come before.

  

Ah, I ALWAYS bring this up whenever I see Bradman discussed as GOAT BUT, he never ever played on the subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Sri, Lanka and from my point of view the jury will always be out based on this.

14 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Ah, I ALWAYS bring this up whenever I see Bradman discussed as GOAT BUT, he never ever played on the subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Sri, Lanka and from my point of view the jury will always be out based on this.

Did any one else play on the Sub Cont at the time?

If not then he is greatest at that time and it's ridiculous to say he isn't the GOAT given his Average is  40% ahead.

You can make a decision on facts or ignore records at your peril and look as though you are too .Tied up to make a decision.

I think it's hard to say because ruckman aren't needed in this day and age. The tigers have shown this.  Because of this I still rate Yze, Neitz, Davey, Jeff Farmer, Schwartz, Robbo, Lyon, Schwartz, Oliver ahead of him. 

No....

For me when I think of all-time greatest players, I think of Stynes, Flower, Barrasi & Neitz

Stynes then daylight for me.

On 2/26/2021 at 2:47 PM, WERRIDEE said:

Brilliant on the weekend. 4 time All Australian. I can't think of anyone better even Flower and Barassi PS: I rarely saw Flower and I never saw Barassi

 I cant comment on Barrassi but I would have Flower ahead by a long way (in the best 5 I have seen with Carey, Ablett Snr, Matera and Hird). Stynes and Gawn  neck and neck for top 3 MFC in my lifetime. 

Garry Lyon in my lifetime, born in 76

Always remember Tommy Lahiff saying the best player he ever saw was Demon Jack Mueller. Four-time premiership player and a couple of Blueys.

Gawn might be the best ruckman we've had but is surely behind Barassi, Norm Smith, Flower, Warne Smith, Mueller, Lyon, Neitz, Dixon, Spencer, Bob Johnson and many others!

Edited February 27, 20215 yr by dee-tox

On 2/26/2021 at 8:19 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lol no, not even close

Not close?

So there's Flower, Barassi, Stynes, Lyon...anyone else before Gawn gets a mention?

He's a 4 x AA, 2 x BnF, 1 x AFLCA MVP, captain and someone so likeable and marketable he brings people to the ground and sponsorship in the door.

But he's "not even close"?

Anyone who chucks on the son of Phil Scully is bottom of the list in my book. Beyond redemption.

6 hours ago, Laughing Goat said:

No....

For me when I think of all-time greatest players, I think of Stynes, Flower, Barrasi & Neitz

Stynes then daylight for me.

I absolutely loved big Jim, he's very close to being my favourite Demon of all but if we were picking teams today, with both players at their best, I reckon I'd pick Gawn.

His unparalleled marking ability and centre dominance make it almost impossible for any ruckman in the eras I've witnessed (since late 80s) to compete with.

it's all so subjective

i have only really been following / obsessing over us since the mid 1980s or so, so only saw the tail end of flower

gawn is a colossus for mine

top 5 since 85, or so:

1. gawn
2. neitz
3. lyon
4. jakovich
5. schwarz

oliver is tracking beautifully to be ahead of several on that list, whilst trac could do

if they win premierships they'll go up in everyone's estimation

We had another ruckman who won a Brownlow in the modern era. You could actually argue that he is not even the best ruckman. When he holds the cup up I might change my mind  

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Not close?

So there's Flower, Barassi, Stynes, Lyon...anyone else before Gawn gets a mention?

He's a 4 x AA, 2 x BnF, 1 x AFLCA MVP, captain and someone so likeable and marketable he brings people to the ground and sponsorship in the door.

But he's "not even close"?

There's quite a few multi premiership winners on the honour roll who should probably be ahead. Norm Smith might get a mention, Jack Mueller, Ivor Warne-Smith, Percy Beames, Don Cordner, Allan La Fontaine, Albert Chadwick - plenty of players through our history who would be above Maxy. I love him but come on.

19 hours ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I absolutely loved big Jim, he's very close to being my favourite Demon of all but if we were picking teams today, with both players at their best, I reckon I'd pick Gawn.

His unparalleled marking ability and centre dominance make it almost impossible for any ruckman in the eras I've witnessed (since late 80s) to compete with.

I love MaX too Cheesy but Jimmy's 4 Bluey's, Brownlow, 2 x AA, Melb & AFL Hall of Fame & 244 consecutive games puts him number 1 IMO......Max is definately on his way but not there yet!

Jimmy also changed the landscape for ruckmen & apart from Koutafides, he was the first ruckman to be recognised as a ruck rover.

Great discussion :)

people forget how good the older players were.  I wonder what people will think of Gawn in 2045.

for now, I am happy we have a fantastic ruckman and great leader. I reckon Petracca is the best player in our team so Gawn the best of all time?  maybe when he is the best player in the current team

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

people forget how good the older players were.  I wonder what people will think of Gawn in 2045.

for now, I am happy we have a fantastic ruckman and great leader. I reckon Petracca is the best player in our team so Gawn the best of all time?  maybe when he is the best player in the current team

There's a lot to weigh up in terms of longevity, consistency and ability to play well when things are not going well.

Petracca is clearly the most talented player on our list. If he puts together multiple seasons at his 2020 level, then Petracca will clearly be our best player. Until then, that mantle has to belong to the guy with the runs on the board.

Edited February 28, 20215 yr by Cheesy D. Pun

2 hours ago, Laughing Goat said:

I love MaX too Cheesy but Jimmy's 4 Bluey's, Brownlow, 2 x AA, Melb & AFL Hall of Fame & 244 consecutive games puts him number 1 IMO......Max is definately on his way but not there yet!

Jimmy also changed the landscape for ruckmen & apart from Koutafides, he was the first ruckman to be recognised as a ruck rover.

Great discussion :)

Certainly is and yes, if we're comparing records, there's no contest at this stage - it's big Jim hands down.

The match committee scenario is where I struggle to go past Gawn but that's probably a bit unfair as the game has changed.

So i think you're saying he's a lock in your best 22 then W

On 2/26/2021 at 2:47 PM, WERRIDEE said:

Brilliant on the weekend. 4 time All Australian. I can't think of anyone better even Flower and Barassi PS: I rarely saw Flower and I never saw Barassi

This post might age very very well.  Barring injury hes a lock for his 5th AA quernsey, and the only reason it wont be six in a row is because he missed half of 2017.

Gawn is something else.

Edited April 18, 20215 yr by Pickett2Jackson