11 minutes ago, Robbie57 said:

To adopt an overused word, our coaching group does not appear agile enough

Luckily, I’m sure there will be plenty of “learnings“ from this whole debacle ?

45 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

Perfect Tomlinson at CHB just playing on key talls that will release some pressure off May and Lever then can become  the  intercept player that he was when playing with the Crows.  We look better with 3 good talls in the back half with Tomlinson down there . The extra tall that is missing.

If we are to win games then we need 2 focal points in the forward line and we had them when we made finals in 2018. TOM and the WEID.

That is the best we have. Give them another go together.

Agree but also please Make  changes when we are down.

Prob  needed at half time last Sat or even late in 2nd quarter.

4 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

I like the thinking of Tomlinson to CHF.  It’s a good option. He can mark the footy. His mobile. I don’t see him as a player for the “Wing” position that Goodwin etc highlighted him to fit into. He’s a CHF/CHB. That’s where he played all his junior footy.  He can kick the footy 55 metres. That’s where he played his best footy at the Giants.

His endurance is excellent and so that’s why perhaps we saw him as a winger. By midfielders standard, he is dead slow.

Time to rethink where we use Tomlinson. Again he’s a good footballer that we need to get best value out of. 

He's mobile, but he's not agile. He lumbers.  Not a great mark either for his size and has zero presence for a big man.  He'll be about as useful as an out of form Tom McDonald.  

I don't understand why Joel Smith isn't pushed forward to give us a marking player.  We should just give him license to attack everything.  He kicked a few goals in the pre-season game last year from memory, when we stuffed his groin by leaving him on the ground.

And give him hours of goal kicking practice because I know that will be an inevitable shortcoming.

4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Richmond won their first flag of the modern era with one tall forward. And he isn't that tall.

Collingwood who are flag favourites are only playing one tall forward.

It's hardly suicidal.

 

It is if you can’t kick to a target! Or score goals and not let goals flow out the back the other way.

Thats a disastrous how many wins since end of 2018?

49 minutes ago, 3183 Dee said:

Luckily, I’m sure there will be plenty of “learnings“ from this whole debacle ?

Get the “scrum masters” out.

An opinion piece from a self appointed expert, with nothing new

Massive fall from grace, just my opinion of course. The game plan has failed, let’s hope Goodwin can lose the ego and fix this before it’s too late. 

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by Ethan Tremblay

A great man once said, "I'll predict anything except the future." Well, okay, he wasn't great, just my colleague, an aging Scot with German roots who enjoys fish 'n' chips as much as any Aussie. Even so, I'm going to have a go:

At some point in the next few days, in a media conference, it will be brought to Simon Goodwin's attention that this week there has been a lot of discussion in the media about the MFC. Simon will reply that moving into the hub has helped them to "shut out noise" or words to that effect. Oh, and there will of course be "learnings," "looking to the future," and other glib phrases which signal that he is failing to deal with the issues which he has been dismissing in this way for a very long time.

A quote I would like to hear from him is this: "Never again!"

7 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

The pressure acts point is an excellent one.  In the Carlton game, Q1 was elite in terms of pressure acts.  The result was clear.  It has dropped off since = look at the results.

Pressure acts is directly related to giving a phark. Clearly the players don’t care all that much and are happy to be on a holiday up in NSW.

lazy, lazy, lazy. I’d say they’ve checked out, but I seriously doubt that since 2018 they have really wanted to check back in.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by Demon Disciple

Dermott Brereton can talk some absolute rubbish nearly all of the time, but his call on Sunday was spot on. Gawn had the measure of the Tiger rucks, we were winning clearance yet totally ineffective inside forward 50.  The time was right to throw the big man forward and set Pickett at his feet.  Our clearance numbers would have still been solid - Chol can't ruck -his strength is his mobility around the ground.  Our high, indiscriminate bombs forward to Max may have had a different outcome to that which was seen when we bombed long to Hannan and Fritsch. Rather than move Tomlinson forward (a winger who actually holds his position well and has been playing reasonably good footy) I think Gawn needs to spend more time forward.  This is where Weid becomes structurally important.  He looks the most likely relief ruck and he never gets outmarked.  He drops plenty but he does have a good second effort. 

11 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

A quote I would like to hear from him is this: "Never again!"

“I quit” is what I would like to hear from him

8 hours ago, Vineytime said:

Tomlinson as a lead up half forward makes a lot of sense to me, surely would offer more than Hunt. 

The concept of Tomlinson, Gawn and Jackson rotating at full forward/ruck/CHF across a whole game in sub-quarter rallies appeals to me, provides an anchor for Weideman to steady as a forward constant - and enables TMac to be re-located to CHB - or even Fullback - or even on rotation with May to/between CHB-FB, as well. Opposition players will be scurrying to find their Demon opponent and as far as these Demon players are concerned, breaks in roles will freshen their general skills and relieve Maxxy enormously, for his own longevity in the game. All it will take is a visual hand signal between the parties concerned as soon as we start forward progress and possession from the backline / limited distance passing between HB - midfield - HF - and keeping Goodwin out of it, so to speak - and the bench spaces.

(Alongside such rotations, a specialist crumbing utility/tag man could assist each of these players. The static players would, of course, have to take care of themselves forward, back and two-way - just to keep them sharp and in a state of readiness. This could be harmonised with one or two midfielders - I seriously doubt that we need four, as currently on offer - but that would be another extension of a moderately complex player feed. ) Of course, there would be no need for leaving the back door open in such ball and player transfers.

Edited July 8, 20204 yr by Deemania since 56

Tomlinson is NOT a forward. Didn't we see a glimpse of that on the weekend? He can't jump. He isn't quick off the mark. He doesn't hit the aerial contest hard. If we want a lead up forward we have Mitch Brown on the list. But we don't need a lead up CHF - we have Tom McDonald in that role who is starting to find a bit of ball and confidence.

We need another tall inside 50 or for the alternative down the line option when Tom is elsewhere and we've tried going smaller with Hannan/Hunt/Fritsch and Melksham. It hasn't worked but it has bought time for Weideman to get a bit of confidence in match practice games and now he'll get his go.

The awful ball use is still the biggest issue. Tomlinson either gets another chance on the wings if we want to bring more width and slower ball movement. Or if we're honest and decide he's ordinary then we'll look elsewhere. Clearly changing up some of the half forward and on ball mix starting with Bennell back in is a start. Fritsch and Hannan higher up the ground and either Melk or ANB/Spargo/Jones part of the shake up too.

Pressure doesn't necessarily equal effort:

Round 1 was poor.
Round 2 started very well but then everyone stopped running and attacking the game as the game went on.
Round 4, we make big changes to ensure more run and the run and effort was huge to keep the Cats score low, but the pressure was bad because we were disorganised and sagging back to help the backline rather than getting up in a good organised zone.
Round 5 - effort certainly there against Richmond and plenty of pressure when we kept our structure. Unfortunately all kinds of turnovers from awful skills and decisions cost us ability to get that pressure on. If you have 3 open team mates short and bomb it long  to a 1 on 3 you aren't going to get any pressure on!

Disorganisation is the key theme, not so much lack of effort.

9 hours ago, CYB said:

Yes there was something very familiar about that Q1 against the blues. That manic pressure was a trademark of our 2018 campaign. All this talk of endeavour and effort not the problem is bullocks if you ask me. I could tell within the first 5 mins whether Melbourne will win a game based on that pressure - it was so entertaining and we had such a good brand. But the issue was that it never could be sustained and perhaps why it’s being potentially phased out ? Or no longer our 1 wood? Who knows - but we definitely play better when we have that defensive intensity.
 

Bang on. Most AFL games and in fact most AFL premierships are won by the team that applies the most pressure for the longest time. Its not hard. Its not the NBA where the skill level is so high that good defence can regularly be overcome. It seems too hard for our players to apply pressure for long periods of time...and it always has.

And further, our lack of pressure is the reason why our skills look so bad. It's because we rarely force the opposition to give the ball back to us in a way that we can break into space and create more time for ourselves. We applied pressure in Q1 vs. Carlton = we looked like we had some skill. Downhill from there.

10 hours ago, A F said:

This makes me feel better everyone:

Overall, I don’t think the Dees’ position is a dire as some make it out to be. Their 2020 players who were 23 or younger on January 1 this year have 399 career AFLCA votes between them – more than you’ll find on any other AFL list.

I don't want to wait another 7 years.

My feelings summed up as this.  The club brings no joy to me,  the club who I have barracked for and financially supported for over 30 years brings hope but nothing else during the past 12 years exception is 2018.  As a supporter they have broken my spirit and resolve to stay positive about them. I no longer care and if given some miracle they eventually hold down a finals spot then bravo. In the meantime there absolutely nothing this club gives to its supporters apart from false hope.  Now looking for something else to invest my time with during Melbourne winters.

On 7/8/2020 at 9:52 AM, 3183 Dee said:

I would argue that his 47 goals (before injury) was a key factor in the side’s momentum into finals and that we have been diabolical going forward ever since.

And you'd be wrong

Our momentum was as a result of the rd 21 loss to the Sydney Swans. Goodwin changed the game plan, we went to Perth and knocked off the Eagles and we won a further 3 good games.

Hogan was irrelevant

On 7/8/2020 at 8:41 AM, buck_nekkid said:

The pressure acts point is an excellent one.  In the Carlton game, Q1 was elite in terms of pressure acts.  The result was clear.  It has dropped off since = look at the results.

Take out that 1 quarter against Carlton and we are averaging a pifling 11 points a qtr.

11 POINTS!

19 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Tomlinson is NOT a forward. Didn't we see a glimpse of that on the weekend? He can't jump. He isn't quick off the mark. He doesn't hit the aerial contest hard. If we want a lead up forward we have Mitch Brown on the list. But we don't need a lead up CHF - we have Tom McDonald in that role who is starting to find a bit of ball and confidence.

We need another tall inside 50 or for the alternative down the line option when Tom is elsewhere and we've tried going smaller with Hannan/Hunt/Fritsch and Melksham. It hasn't worked but it has bought time for Weideman to get a bit of confidence in match practice games and now he'll get his go.

The awful ball use is still the biggest issue. Tomlinson either gets another chance on the wings if we want to bring more width and slower ball movement. Or if we're honest and decide he's ordinary then we'll look elsewhere. Clearly changing up some of the half forward and on ball mix starting with Bennell back in is a start. Fritsch and Hannan higher up the ground and either Melk or ANB/Spargo/Jones part of the shake up too.

Pressure doesn't necessarily equal effort:

Round 1 was poor.
Round 2 started very well but then everyone stopped running and attacking the game as the game went on.
Round 4, we make big changes to ensure more run and the run and effort was huge to keep the Cats score low, but the pressure was bad because we were disorganised and sagging back to help the backline rather than getting up in a good organised zone.
Round 5 - effort certainly there against Richmond and plenty of pressure when we kept our structure. Unfortunately all kinds of turnovers from awful skills and decisions cost us ability to get that pressure on. If you have 3 open team mates short and bomb it long  to a 1 on 3 you aren't going to get any pressure on!

Disorganisation is the key theme, not so much lack of effort.

With one exception I agree.

The exception to me is gut-running from midfielders. I still see too many instances of Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney lagging behind opposition mids when we're in defensive transition.

Otherwise, what others seem to think is a drop in pressure acts or tackles can well be explained by our inability to tie together a defensive zone and a way to move the ball in offence, coupled with far too many turnovers.

Haven't recovered from losing Hogan.     18 possessions and 6 marks per game, to go with 47 goals in 20 games in 2018.

4 hours ago, Soidee said:

My feelings summed up as this.  The club brings no joy to me,  the club who I have barracked for and financially supported for over 30 years brings hope but nothing else during the past 12 years exception is 2018.  As a supporter they have broken my spirit and resolve to stay positive about them. I no longer care and if given some miracle they eventually hold down a finals spot then bravo. In the meantime there absolutely nothing this club gives to its supporters apart from false hope.  Now looking for something else to invest my time with during Melbourne winters.

This is EXACTLY how I'm feeling. Change the 30 years to 60 and it's me. I'm a pensioner and am far from wealthy, but I've still spent around $1,000 just this year on memberships, raffles, fund raising,  merchandise etc. to keep the club going. But on Sunday something died. My passion and undying optimism and faith stopped. I haven't watched or listened to anything AFL, let alone MFC which is not me. Like everyone here I have gone through bad patches frequently but this feels different. Terminal. I want to snap out of it but I'm not confident I will. I need to put Groundhog Day behind me.

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Take out that 1 quarter against Carlton and we are averaging a pifling 11 points a qtr.

11 POINTS!

We are actually averaging just over 12.5 points per qtr, 201 points for divided by 16

8 teams are averaging 15pts or less a quarter after 5 games

With another 5 averaging around 16pts

It's the state of the game

If we can actually get the connection right, we are less than a goal a qtr behind 13 other teams

36 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We are actually averaging just over 12.5 points per qtr, 201 points for divided by 16

8 teams are averaging 15pts or less a quarter after 5 games

With another 5 averaging around 16pts

It's the state of the game

If we can actually get the connection right, we are less than a goal a qtr behind 13 other teams

Connection though Saty relies on one player kicking the ball to another player who is able to catch it. I don't think 5-10 handballs until somebody is tackled and we turn it over counts.

27 minutes ago, In Harmes Way said:

Connection though Saty relies on one player kicking the ball to another player who is able to catch it. I don't think 5-10 handballs until somebody is tackled and we turn it over counts.

Correct, but it is an area we can work on, everybody at the Club recognises this, Chaplin quote 'we are beating ourselves at the moment' unquote

As I have stated before players can be coached and coached but you can't coach skill errors, poor decisions or a falling down of fundamentals

The coaches must be as frustrated as everybody else, you pick players who are supposedly fit and in form, what you are looking for is consistency and cohesion in both individual players and team performance

What's the answer if it is the same players making the same basic skill errors or not carrying out the fundamentals, one answer of course it is to drop them from the team and bring in new players, meaning you have to start again with the consistency and cohesion

Do you stick with the same players and hope they turn the corner?

Do you look at changing the game plan after the whole squad has been training it for months

It is all so easy for any person who is not directly involved in an AFL team to analyse and say in my opinion this is the answer

You don't see too many taking up the challenge, as have we seen from the vitriol displayed on this forum, being an AFL coach is a thankless task

 

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

We are actually averaging just over 12.5 points per qtr, 201 points for divided by 16

8 teams are averaging 15pts or less a quarter after 5 games

With another 5 averaging around 16pts

It's the state of the game

If we can actually get the connection right, we are less than a goal a qtr behind 13 other teams

That's not what I said. Our average taking out 1 qtr against Carlton is 11 pts. Under 2 goals a qtr.

Whoopy Do. Scintillating football

And I couldn't care less what other teams are averaging.

 

Last season we scored 1569 pts from 22 games 17.8pts a qtr the 2nd worst in the competition

Anyone that doesn't think we have a problem is delusional.

Self evident.