Steven May, Time for a change?

[Tom Dyson 1,645]

If this is a repeat of an old thread then feel free to merge. 

After pondering Kingy and Derm's post game comments, one interesting thing lept out, that being, we have heavily infested in two key defenders (May and Lever) who, while both being superb back-men, don't offer a solution to our biggest problem that being translating all of our forward fifty entries to goals. To win games you have to kick goals, it's as simple as that. 

Fritsch and Hannan offer something, Hunt bobs up every now an again, Kossi looks dangerous but isnt quite there yet, TMAC as well all know has been well off his best for a while. in short we don't have a weapon in our foward line. we don't have someone who we expect to kick four goals a game and be a real target going inside 50. It is indicative that we haven't posted a score above 55 this season and were horrible on the scoring front last season.

this begs the question, with no real fire power waiting in the wings (brown and weid aren't going to resolve the issue imo), can we swing may forward and then use either of the macdonald brothers in the backline. 

let's remind ourselves, Steven May kicked 40 goals in 8 games in his year 12 APS season for Melbourne Grammar (average of 5 goals a game). he was drafted as a forward to gold coast, but was quickly transformed into a key defender at the request of some random gold coast coach. he's shown himself to be very damaging in the forward 

i think there's real potential for May to go forward, not only to offer a real target up forward but actually take a contested mark or two and slot a few goals. i think the solution has been under our nose the whole time but goody is too scared to possibly change anything and just coast along instead. 

but i hear you all say, surely if we move May back then we will only leak goals instead but this is where i think keeping o'mac is really going to benefit the club. The first 6 or so rounds of 2018 when Lever had just come in to the team, O'mac shut down hawkins in round 1, he shut down Hipwood in round 2, he nullified ben brown in round 3, he didnt have a great game against hawthorn but he kept riewoldt out of it in round 5, he kept daniher goaless in round 6, he kept patty mccartin to 2 points in round 7 (which was the same round that lever got injured) and while he was alright for the rest of the season he was never as dominant for the rest of the season. now i know a lot of you have issues with o'mac and i'd agree that he's had some shockers over the journey but he has shown that he can nullify some of the best forwards in the game so i don't see why he can't do it again. 

In short, try May up forward and replace him with O'mac in the backline (drop joel smith to open up a spot) and see if that might provide a solution to our scoring woes. after all, if you want to be inventive, this is the season to trial things. 

Thoughts?

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

It can’t hurt. Swing TMac back, add May forward and Brown/Weed to CHF. All seems fairly simple. Add Omac in place of Smith

Edited July 5, 2020 by Leoncelli_36

[DeeSpencer 26,628]

56 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

It can’t hurt. Swing TMac back, add May forward and Brown/Weed to CHF. All seems fairly simple. Add Omac in place of Smith

It absolutely can hurt.

May has flat hands, he's not a great mark, he is an elite defender at using his body to get position and spoiling. He's also a very good - not great - field kick with penetration. He can find the ball and link up. He's starting to get the balance right between coming up and sitting back and having the ball come to him. In a zoning defence cohesion and experience matter.

Tommy has started to turn the corner with his marking and his movement over the last two weeks. At least some of our players were looking for him across half forward today. Why unsettle that and move him back where we've got years of evidence that his field kicking will give up goals and some signs in 2016-2017 down back and since up forward that his movement will see him struggle to turn and chase opponents. Elite tank, clean sets of hands, good shot for goal, turns like the queen mary. He is a CHF these days.

Oscar - no. Unless he's suddenly found a whole lot of fitness to move at CHB the man is a witches hat who trails opponents over and over and provides little in rebound or at ground level. Unless we want to take Lever out and move Smith and May up the ground we can't get slower and safer just to be different. Smith is spoiling and using the ball to the same level Oscar did and he has a heap of upside, we've had years of Oscar without improvement. Unless his body was completely broken last year and he's now a whole new athlete with a whole new mental composition - faster, meaner, more aggressive - there's no reason to go back to him.

[joshua 74]

Chuck lever in the forward line too for a laugh

[KingDingAling 3,758]

Oscar Mc was actually a reasonable forward a a junior. I wouldn't mind giving him a go at it. I thought Tom as ok up forward today, and May solid down back. No point fiddling around with May or Lever. Our strength will be in leaving those two sort themselves out down back. Hibberd was good today. The more organised May and Lever are down back, it frees up our runners, we get run that way. We need run. Attacking right out of the backline is something we need. It will come. 

[Ungarieboy 456]

It doesn't matter who we have forward until we correct the ball movement from the midfield.  

We are not brave enough to spot a target leading UP the ground but only with a 1 -2 meter gap on the Defender.  We will instead hit up a leading target who has 10 meters on their opponent into a dead pocket.  Note the opposition teams protect the dangerous area of the forward 50 and allow space in the areas offering low percentage shots on goal, with a little implied pressure even these opportunities convert to a a 50-50 contest for them.  Then when the forward inevitably misses  a couple (not all) of these difficult shots their confidence drops and any easier shots carries additional pressure.

[Nasher 33,641]

I think DeeSpencer has summed it up, although tough on Oscar - I think he is overestimating how long he has been around. He is in his 6th season and while that meets the dictionary definition of “years”, it certainly doesn’t meet the implication of an experienced KPD as intended.

The timing to start switching them around now would be wrong with TMac showing signs of improvement and May showing his value as a defender yesterday. 

While the biggest problem in the side seems to be translating winning the ball in to scores, I’m still not 100% sure it’s the forward line personnel that are at fault. I think individually, they’re all capable forwards. It’s just that for some reason we can’t get it in there in a manner that gives them a chance. We frequently kick to outnumbered players at half forward, or get jammed up in handball chains through the middle, which (if we survive it) nearly always end up in a rushed kick. It’s a systematic, whole of team issue that I think both the forwards and those delivering it need to address. I’m not sure changing the names on the magnet board wouldn’t just result in having different players make the same mistakes.

[SPC 3,596]

I actually agree with having May forward- I’d settle him there for the year. He and Lever seem to get in each other’s way down back.

One thing May does well is body block players. He would be good at blocking defenders run hence freeing up another forward.

I would play Oscar and Hore or Petty when both fit. 
 

TMAC will be okay, he just needs another tall working in tandem.

[defuture15 902]

In the past I was in favour of playing weed down back. I'm not sure of the NSW distancing rules but can we now train as a team 2-3 days a week? That will make the biggest difference to our "connection"

[Demons11 7,132]

9 hours ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

It can’t hurt. Swing TMac back, add May forward and Brown/Weed to CHF. All seems fairly simple. Add Omac in place of Smith

So do we then go back to being terrible in defence? Surely keep the defence together and bring in either Brown or Weed. 

[buck_nekkid 6,092]

May is doing well down back.  The Smith experiment is one to question.  Lever is generally good.  If we look deeper the problem is the lack of pressure between the arcs.  By the time it gets to May, it is all or nothing.  There have been half a dozen lazy actions that have led to that pressure.

dont take May from the backline.  Just give Weid or brown a go in the forward line, and give the midfielders who cough it up like a COVID carrier at a trump rally a rocket (or drop them).  Omac is probably better than Smith, don’t know what the FD want?  A racehorse rebounder?

[spirit of norm smith 16,674]

May was a forward as a junior and first two years at Suns. Can mark. Great kick. I’d try the Weid first but if all is lost by round 10, I’d experiment with May going forward. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

So we have Jackson, Weideman and Brown waiting in the wings... and we want to swing May forward instead?  No thanks.

The three mentioned above deserve a crack first before we even look at moving May forward.  With some consistent games under his belt he is really beginning to show his worth to the side, and we want to change that up?  It doesn't make sense to me.

I'd leave the back six as it is.  They're doing a pretty good job right now.  As others have said above, it's our forward mix and how we deliver the ball in there that's the issue.  I'd be looking at trying a few things in that regard first before shifting anyone out of defence.

[titan_uranus 25,221]

I understand we're all desperate to change things up in our forward half to get something going, but I really think this is a terrible idea.

Our backline is the only part of the ground right now where we're playing at least mid-table competitive AFL-level football. Both last week and this week we've defended the G much better and most of our opponents' goals have been from turnovers, rather than from breakdowns in the back half.

[spirit of norm smith 16,674]

12 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

Just give Weid or brown a go in the forward line

Surely we need capitals 

JUST GIVE WEID OR BROWN A GO IN THE FORWARD LINE 

for a few weeks. Not just 1-2. We brought in Brown. We need to give either of them 5-6 weeks. Here you go. Yes. It’s not just a fling. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,149]

I have been calling for May to CHF for some time.  Defence is not our main problem.  The inability to convert and lock the ball inside 50 for more than 10 or 20 seconds is.

I was calling for this at half time yesterday also to take advantage of the fact that most of our playing group, much of the time, plays a straight ahead game.

We don't look lateral often enough when coming off HB or through the square and more often than not just kick it blindly to CHF.  Usually bombing and shallow kicks where the opp sits a player roughly 40 meters out directly in front.  They often intercept then counter quickly on that turnover.  We are mostly running forward, out of position, and this often results in a shot at goal or a goal for our opponents.

Massive team deflator.  If you aren't going to coach this 'straight ahead full steam" approach out of the players ie; look up the field assess quickly, if main outlets are blocked hold up and go lateral (even backwards as a last resort) if needed but try and maintain possession.

The solution if you arent changing that method, and it would appear we aren't or Goody can't, is to put a decent marking tall forward at CHF who can compete, clunk a few marks and/or bring the ball to ground.

I don't trust either Brown or Weid in this role although happy to see an experiment wIth either for a few weeks but...my preference is May as per post on another thread below.  Goody needs to experiment and pull the trigger.  Shouldve happened at half time yesterday.  This could be a stop gap until Petty returnd or it might be permanent depending on results...

..."Pretty fair summary Poita.  I can't see a place for Tomo (on a wing) if Bennell ever gets back.  Surely he and or / Fritchskreig goes to Tomo's wing.

Tomo trialled at CHB or maybe even CHF?

Personally i would trial him at CHB.  Push May to CHF and bring O-Mac in for Smith.  Bennell to HF or wing.  Alternating with Fritsch maybe."

Edited July 5, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[Wiseblood 24,637]

33 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

I have been calling for May to CHF for some time.  Defence is not our main problem. 

And defence could turn in to a problem by taking our best key defender and sticking him at CHF.

We need to see how the tall forwards we have go before we start making these sort of drastic changes.  

[Lord Nev 13,512]

IMO it's structural work and skill work we need, not moving the pieces around. You can see what will happen, move May forward, then the backline (which has started to gel) becomes a weakness and we move him back, then the forward line... yadda yadda...

If we're 'experimenting' just do this:

1) Put another key forward in the team.

2) Instruct midfielders that they're not allowed to kick the ball within 10m of goal when looking inside 50.

We have players getting to space inside 50, but our mids continue to think it's better to deliver deep to a contest than 35-40 out to an open player.

 

[Robbie57 2,042]

Not sure this is the answer but applaud the the idea given Goodwin not capable of coming up with any. Why didnt we put Oliver or Trac forward of the ball at least for a while yesterday? Oliver would benefit from experiencing the frustration of poor delivery first hand. I'd prefer we gave Weid a go. Perhaps if we are thinking of  May forward and Tmac can come back to get some confidence again although I think his problem is both delivery and lack of support. 

[Tom Dyson 1,645]

3 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

So we have Jackson, Weideman and Brown waiting in the wings... and we want to swing May forward instead?  No thanks.

The three mentioned above deserve a crack first before we even look at moving May forward.  With some consistent games under his belt he is really beginning to show his worth to the side, and we want to change that up?  It doesn't make sense to me.

I'd leave the back six as it is.  They're doing a pretty good job right now.  As others have said above, it's our forward mix and how we deliver the ball in there that's the issue.  I'd be looking at trying a few things in that regard first before shifting anyone out of defence.

I'd agree to give Jacko, Weid and Brown a go first but I would be very surprised if any one of them suddenly provided the answers to our conversion and scoring issues. 

If one of them does kick heaps of goals than thats great but otherwise, i think trying may in the forward line even just for a half of a game could be a worthwhile experiment. Swinging T'mac forward was a masterstroke at least for a year and a half. 

I'm not sure how much stock you put in shane crawford's opinion but he suggested swinging may forward at least to bring the ball to ground more to give kossi and bennell a go. I agree that theres issues with supply but too often melky and hannan and fritsch would just get outbodied by bigger defenders (I think balta had 6 or so intercept marks yesterday).

I'm not sure if moving may around would have much of an impact on the back six, but until its tried we won't know either way. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,149]

4 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

And defence could turn in to a problem by taking our best key defender and sticking him at CHF.

We need to see how the tall forwards we have go before we start making these sort of drastic changes.  

Tomo can handle CHB Wise.  No-Mac takes the FB role.  Lever needs to finally  earn his coin and provide a regular chop out / intercept role, which i understand is what he was brought in for in the first place.  Lend a hand as required.  We need to put a score on the board and lock the ball inside 50 for decent game time.

Even if we give up a goal or two extra to kick 4 or 5 extra the other way.  Payoff is there by correcting the current putrid forward issues.

Roll the dice or die wondering?  I know which way i'd be going and at present, we are going nowhere.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[DubDee 26,512]

After injuries last year May is finally looking settled in the back line and showing his quality.

He is one of the few players I would not consider moving position

[titan_uranus 25,221]

3 hours ago, Robbie57 said:

Not sure this is the answer but applaud the the idea given Goodwin not capable of coming up with any. Why didnt we put Oliver or Trac forward of the ball at least for a while yesterday? Oliver would benefit from experiencing the frustration of poor delivery first hand. I'd prefer we gave Weid a go. Perhaps if we are thinking of  May forward and Tmac can come back to get some confidence again although I think his problem is both delivery and lack of support. 

I'm near certain we did put Oliver forward.

[Little Richard 6,265]

1 minute ago, DubDee said:

After injuries last year May is finally looking settled in the back line and showing his quality.

He is one of the few players I would not consider moving position

Absolutely agree. We're at a stage where there are certain things we need to try, but moving May just as he's playing his best footy for the club down back is not the answer.

[Tom Dyson 1,645]

22 minutes ago, Luther said:

Absolutely agree. We're at a stage where there are certain things we need to try, but moving May just as he's playing his best footy for the club down back is not the answer.

Do you accept though that if we don't try we won't know either way, the result of moving him. 

If we move him and he doesn't help the forward line and the backline leaks goals, then i'll put my hand up to say i was wrong.

however if the converse is true and he benefits the forward line without detracting from the defence, is that not a gamble worth taking at least for half a game just to see how it pans out?