POSTGAME: Rd16 vs Carlton

[titan_uranus 25,043]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:42 PM, Jaded said:

I never said I wasn’t happy we won. But I said from the first minute of the game, before we had limited rotations, that it was a horrible game to watch. Our skills are deplorable. Below AFL level. Our game plan is outdated. We make mistake after mistake with the ball in hand. It is the same every week, except we are lucky that we came up against an equally poor team. Do you think we would be 6 goals up playing like that against Collingwood? Or Geelong? 

I have never once told anyone here to stop celebrating a win. But have been told to stop thinking about all the negatives. Why can’t I have my views of this game in the context of the season, but you can? 

I am not exactly calling for mass sackings and declaring I’m going to microwave my membership. 

And you forgot to mention that Carlton was also down on rotations. Or that we have barely won a last quarter all year. 

Forgive me if this win has not somehow made me more optimistic about our ladder position or the same fatal flaws we have displayed all season. 

We beat the same team by 109 points a year ago, and they are arguably worse this season. 

We get the 4 points which is great. It still doesn’t get us within a realistic shot of finals. We still haven’t improved our skills or decision making. To be honest I was happier with our loss to Richmond, than this win. Because I don’t care about meaningless wins in a season that is dead in the water. I care to see us match it with good teams. The reality is we barely beat Carlton or Gold Coast and we are deeply embedded in the bottom 4. 

Go and enjoy the win. Nobody is stopping you. I certainly am not. But this is a discussion forum and I want to discuss the reality of this season, not this win. Is that ok with you?

Gees the only thing worse than this season is all the bloody supporters on their high horse who suddenly can’t handle anyone mentioning negatives about the position of the club. We had one good year in ten. That is not a free pass in my eyes. 

You're making my point, Jaded.

It's not criticism of our 2019 season that I'm finding it difficult to read - the season has been disastrous and we have a number of lessons to learn, and beating Carlton doesn't necessarily mean we've learnt them. 

What I'm finding increasingly frustrating on Demonland is the unnecessary pessimism and the inability to enjoy positive moments when they arise, even where in context they do not change the season.

So saying I am on a "high horse" because I "can't handle anyone mentioning negatives" is both inaccurate and OTT. Saying things like we wouldn't have been 6 goals up against Collingwood or Richmond is irrelevant - we didn't play Collingwood or Richmond, we played Carlton.

Dismissing the rotations issue (which is what you've been doing) ignores the reality of it. In the first half we had 42 rotations and Carlton 44. In the second half we had 25 rotations and Carlton had 44. In the fourth quarter it was 6 to 18.

We should have been 10 goals up in the third quarter and the fact we weren't was indicative of the ongoing problems we have had all year, and last year. But holding on against a fast-finishing side when we're out on our feet is something to be happy with regardless. 

The frustration arises when posters either can't, or don't want to, see the positives and just want to talk about the failures.

15 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Look, the same jollies will enjoy the win, talk about how we held on with three down on the bench but won't bat an eyelid at the fact that nothing has changed regarding the way we're playing. The first half? We were deplorable against arguably the worst side in the AFL without Cripps, Curnow and McKay. 

Let's get real here, the end of the season can't come soon enough. 

Watching us enter forward 50 is amateur hour at its finest. We are literally a comedy act. It's as if we try and navigate the most difficult route to goal once inside our forward half. 

The problem with this list has never been effort based. It is entirely skill and decision making. We are the least skilled side and have the worst decision makers in the AFL. 

List must change over the off-season if we're to get back to finals. 

I haven't seen the full game so I can't be sure, but based on what I've seen/read and the stats, is this completely true though?

Or:

14 hours ago, pitmaster said:

I wonder were you at the game or watching on telly? Because to me, viewing from the northern stand, plenty changed.

It was obvious from the opening minutes that our play-on-at-all-costs-through-the-corridor approach of earlier this year had been jettisoned for a much slower, controlled possession game. We looked to switch wide at every opportunity and did not seek the corridor until closing on the forward 50, and not always then. Rather than gambling with frantic play-on football we set out to deny the opposition possession by maintaining it ourselves.

Statements like this: Watching us enter forward 50 is amateur hour at its finest. We are literally a comedy act. It's as if we try and navigate the most difficult route to goal once inside our forward half are simply meaningless. And considering we had a key forward kick six goals in three quarters and another forward score three goals from 11 disposals your remarks are simply wrong.

It seems to me your prejudices prevent you from observing  what's really going on.

I had been leaning towards this, based on what I've seen/read so far.

Our kick-handball ratio was 221-151, or 1.46. 

Against Brisbane it was 217-186, or 1.16.

Fremantle was 237-150, or 1.58.

I wonder whether post-bye we have tried to kick-mark more than pre-bye, and when it has worked (Fremantle and Carlton) we have played more controlled football and performed better as a result, but against Brisbane we went away from that and struggled as a result.

This is obviously too simplistic an analysis, but I'm not sure @stevethemanjordan is 100% on the money about how we played vs Carlton (although there remain problems with our entries and our forward line in general). 

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Also, on the topic of over-celebrating, just have a think about how the players would have felt in that moment when the siren went.

They were spent. They had been working as hard as they could, with almost no rest, to try to hold on and prevent a loss which would have opened up so much criticism (given how much they're copping despite winning, imagine what they would have been thinking about the ramifications of a loss).

So the siren goes and their natural reaction is to be happy. 

FFS. In the heat of the moment, sometimes humans exhibit emotions. In this instance it was 100% justifiable.

Edited July 9, 2019 by titan_uranus

[Nasher 33,617]

I can separate the bitter disappointment of the season from small, in the moment wins. In my brain it’s possible for both to be true. Fairo if Steve, Jaded, Bub and others can’t.

[Nasher 33,617]

11 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Also, on the topic of over-celebrating, just have a think about how the players would have felt in that moment when the siren went.

They were spent. They had been working as hard as they could, with almost no rest, to try to hold on and prevent a loss which would have opened up so much criticism (given how much they're copping despite winning, imagine what they would have been thinking about the ramifications of a loss).

So the siren goes and their natural reaction is to be happy. 

And then we get robots like Judd who say that's over the top.

FFS. In the heat of the moment, sometimes humans exhibit emotions. In this instance it was 100% justifiable.

I didn’t see the segment and could be totally wrong but I thought it was Wilson who said we over-celebrated and Judd was in our corner.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

2 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I didn’t see the segment and could be totally but I thought it was Wilson who said we over-celebrated and Judd was in our corner.

Ah, that is indeed correct.

Point still stands, just minus the Judd-robot thing.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

You're making my point, Jaded.

It's not criticism of our 2019 season that I'm finding it difficult to read - the season has been disastrous and we have a number of lessons to learn, and beating Carlton doesn't necessarily mean we've learnt them. 

What I'm finding increasingly frustrating on Demonland is the unnecessary pessimism and the inability to enjoy positive moments when they arise, even where in context they do not change the season.

So saying I am on a "high horse" because I "can't handle anyone mentioning negatives" is both inaccurate and OTT. Saying things like we wouldn't have been 6 goals up against Collingwood or Richmond is irrelevant - we didn't play Collingwood or Richmond, we played Carlton.

Dismissing the rotations issue (which is what you've been doing) ignores the reality of it. In the first half we had 42 rotations and Carlton 44. In the second half we had 25 rotations and Carlton had 44. In the fourth quarter it was 6 to 18.

We should have been 10 goals up in the third quarter and the fact we weren't was indicative of the ongoing problems we have had all year, and last year. But holding on against a fast-finishing side when we're out on our feet is something to be happy with regardless. 

The frustration arises when posters either can't, or don't want to, see the positives and just want to talk about the failures.

 

Frankly I thought our first half was worse than our second, and I said so many times. I fully respect the rotation situation and the injuries, but I witnessed a first half with a full team riddled with horrible ball use, poor decision making and atrocious goal kicking against a terrible side. 

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a win, and I have no issue with the players or supporters celebrating. I just don't seem to enjoy wins at this stage of the season, against poor sides, when finals are out of the question. I rather concentrate on the things that need improving, which yes, are negatives, and see where our improvement is going to come from. To me beating Carlton by under a goal is not where the improvement or hope for next year lies. 

Just  as I don't ever have a go at anyone celebrating wins, I expect others to do the same when the reverse is true. We all look at things from different perspectives, and mine is firm. I only care about playing and winning finals, and premierships. Small incremental wins do not thrill me. This is not 2016. We should be a long way away from talking about whether a 5 point victory against Carlton should be a point of celebration as we stare down a bottom 4 finish. 

As Nasher said, some people can enjoy the small wins along the way. I did too until finals were no longer on the cards. Now all I see is a team broken by injuries, lacking skills and a relevant game plan, and struggling against bottom feeders, which is sadly now also where we find ourselves. Again.

 

[old dee 23,872]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

Also, on the topic of over-celebrating, just have a think about how the players would have felt in that moment when the siren went.

They were spent. They had been working as hard as they could, with almost no rest, to try to hold on and prevent a loss which would have opened up so much criticism (given how much they're copping despite winning, imagine what they would have been thinking about the ramifications of a loss).

So the siren goes and their natural reaction is to be happy. 

FFS. In the heat of the moment, sometimes humans exhibit emotions. In this instance it was 100% justifiable.

I have to say tu I felt like we had just won the flag for five minutes. So I can only imagine how the guys on the field felt. You can only win one game at a time and we won this one.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

15 hours ago, binman said:

Judd said we did well to win with 3 on the bench and asked Damo i t( i think, but maybe it was Caro) if he understood the impact of being down to one player on the bench (and on that Hore was out for 3 and bit quarters so we were down a rotation for a big chunk of the first half).

Yes Judd was complimentary, it was Caro that potted us. The story was run again in the paper today. Pathetic from that cretin. She got support from that other hack Damo. The two players were supportive of us. Looking for a a story where there wasn’t one, as usual 

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

1 minute ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Yes Judd was complimentary, it was Caro that potted us. The story was run again in the paper today. Pathetic from that cretin. She got support from that other hack Damo. The two players were supportive of us. Looking for a a story where there wasn’t one, as usual 

As if Caro or Barrett would know anything about fatigue in a final quarter. 

Disgraceful call. Wilson continues to hate anything MFC

[jnrmac 20,186]

21 hours ago, Redleg said:

Are you talking about when Brayshaw tried to kick it off the ground after the ball stopped.

Is their side on, or front on vision of that?

I saw different vision on "On the Couch" and while the decision looked correct I was more interested in the process of whether it was automatically reviewed as a matter of course when its a point. Goals are supposedly reviewed automatically but I am not sure about points. And by the time the ball was kicked it was almost game over before a review could have taken place. IF it was an incorrect decision what would have happened?

[jnrmac 20,186]

56 minutes ago, old dee said:

I have to say tu I felt like we had just won the flag for five minutes. So I can only imagine how the guys on the field felt. You can only win one game at a time and we won this one.

Hard to get excited about that win OD. Great for those that do but for me it epitomised our season and there is nothing to be excited by that.

[loges 6,767]

4 hours ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Yeah, I think Kreuzer initiated the confusion by having his back towards their goal and looking to give it off. Not on a knock on our fella, just thought the sequence was funny, especially the slow mo, it looked like 2 BFGs trying to dance the Nutbush.

Yes it was a good laugh.

[old dee 23,872]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Hard to get excited about that win OD. Great for those that do but for me it epitomised our season and there is nothing to be excited by that.

Like every Dees supporter I am very disappointed with our performances this year.

I have thought long and hard about the position we find ourselves in 2019.

First I don't thing we were as good as our preliminary  final might suggest, at the start of August  last year we had not beaten one team in the top eight and were still dropping games to the likes of the Saints. We then IMO had a purple patch where we could do little wrong. But come prelim day we found out our true quality.

We then start 2019 with a large number of better players short of pre season time through surgery's etc.

Add a FD that is less than wonderful and who IMO missed how much the 666 rule changes would effect our game plan.

We used Hogan's draft rewards on a full back who ended up injured and missed half the year as well as the goals that Hogan kicked last year.

Then we seem to have had a large number of our better players out injured.

Nett result IMO was a team that was not as good as we thought affected negatively on several fronts.

After the last five decades I have come to accept that the MFC will not win a flag in my lifetime.

I go to games now with the hope we will win on the day and when we do I enjoy the win no matter how or who it is against. A win is win is a win.

That's just me and I enjoyed the final result last Sunday, this year is dead and almost buried and IMO we will struggle to win another game this year but if we do I will feel the same as last Sunday "JOY".

Am I angry at some of the things that have happened this year yes but there is absolutely nothing I can do about them but complain on here.

Enjoy the next win if we have one jnr as this is as good as it gets in 2019.

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by old dee

[dees189227 12,398]

Can someone tell me what that last 50m penalty was for when may went to kick out after the blues scored that last behind?

[buck_nekkid 6,046]

14 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

Can someone tell me what that last 50m penalty was for when may went to kick out after the blues scored that last behind?

The blues player soccered the ball away after the goal umpire started his signalling, stopping us playing on at our choice.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,099]

2 hours ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Yes Judd was complimentary, it was Caro that potted us. The story was run again in the paper today. Pathetic from that cretin. She got support from that other hack Damo. The two players were supportive of us. Looking for a a story where there wasn’t one, as usual 

Caro potted the Dees? Surely not. Damo piled on? Well I never.

At least some things don't change hey.

[Diamond_Jim 12,628]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

After the last five decades I have come to accept that the MFC will not win a flag in my lifetime.

nil desperandum OD.

I'm the opposite.. I have started to demand a premiership in the next ten years and to see this decent list squandered is #%^&*ing me off.

Is it too much to expect a string of decent years as experienced by Hawks, Geelong, Collingwood and even North to mention but  a few... there's something about failure at this club which is becoming part of its DNA. Hell even Brisbane is rising from its ashes and they have three fantastic premierships this century.

As another poster said the worst thing is that we are becoming "irrelevant."

[old dee 23,872]

3 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

nil desperandum OD.

I'm the opposite.. I have started to demand a premiership in the next ten years and to see this decent list squandered is #%^&*ing me off.

Is it too much to expect a string of decent years as experienced by Hawks, Geelong, Collingwood and even North to mention but  a few... there's something about failure at this club which is becoming part of its DNA. Hell even Brisbane is rising from its ashes and they have three fantastic premierships this century.

As another poster said the worst thing is that we are becoming "irrelevant."

Yes we have total different views on what we expect. I have no idea of your age DJ but I suspect you a lot less than me if on that  basis I am correct I used to have the same view as yourself but the MFC after 5 decades has battered me into submission. The MFC has been irrelevant for the best part of two decades and from my view only a couple of premierships over the next decade will change that but sadly I don't see that happening. 

I still enjoy watching my teams and go to as many Casey matches as I can. That is my enjoyment these days.

So when we win I enjoy it and I really enjoyed last year however that is probably it for this decade however who knows what the next holds.

[DemonOX 8,800]

5 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Also, on the topic of over-celebrating, just have a think about how the players would have felt in that moment when the siren went.

They were spent. They had been working as hard as they could, with almost no rest, to try to hold on and prevent a loss which would have opened up so much criticism (given how much they're copping despite winning, imagine what they would have been thinking about the ramifications of a loss).

So the siren goes and their natural reaction is to be happy. 

FFS. In the heat of the moment, sometimes humans exhibit emotions. In this instance it was 100% justifiable.

I didn’t think we over celebrated at all tbh. 

At the end of the game the players had smiles on their faces but so did I. 

Ffs u can’t even smile at the end of a game if u win. The media over analyse everything but that’s what happens when u, the media think u are bigger than the game and need to try and remain relevant. 

[Skuit 10,031]

On 7/7/2019 at 6:10 AM, Wadda We Sing said:

Did you manage to catch any of the game @Skuit? Was a bit of an early one for you...

Hey Wadda. I'm in Faja de Grande in Flores - the Western-most point of Europe - and it's absolutely stunning. Decided as such to take @Cards13 advice and give the game a miss. The first win I haven't seen live for over five years - the last while I was airborne. Cheers Cards.

Still, by the sounds of it I'm not sure if I really do want to watch the replay. 

 

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

2 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Hey Wadda. I'm in Faja de Grande in Flores - the Western-most point of Europe - and it's absolutely stunning. Decided as such to take @Cards13 advice and give the game a miss. The first win I haven't seen live for over five years - the last while I was airborne. Cheers Cards.

Still, by the sounds of it I'm not sure if I really do want to watch the replay. 

 

Ola' !  My fave part of the world - how mad is this place

[Sorry kids 635]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

Yes we have total different views on what we expect. I have no idea of your age DJ but I suspect you a lot less than me if on that  basis I am correct I used to have the same view as yourself but the MFC after 5 decades has battered me into submission. The MFC has been irrelevant for the best part of two decades and from my view only a couple of premierships over the next decade will change that but sadly I don't see that happening. 

I still enjoy watching my teams and go to as many Casey matches as I can. That is my enjoyment these days.

So when we win I enjoy it and I really enjoyed last year however that is probably it for this decade however who knows what the next holds.

I understand the Casey bit. I always went to the Reserves game in the hope of seeing an up an comer before the usual disaster that was the senior game. Had the pleasure of seeing a young Jimmy Stynes dominate hitouts one day when the irish experiment was a joke. and then one day around the same time I reckon I counted Sean Wight take nine marks in a last quarter. Gee I miss the reserves games.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Hey Wadda. I'm in Faja de Grande in Flores - the Western-most point of Europe - and it's absolutely stunning. Decided as such to take @Cards13 advice and give the game a miss. The first win I haven't seen live for over five years - the last while I was airborne. Cheers Cards.

Still, by the sounds of it I'm not sure if I really do want to watch the replay. 

 

Oh your in the Azores ! Almost in America mate..... Dang. Certainly a great time of the year for doing a bit of island hopping. Hoping to get over again soon.

Yeah not missing much re footy, but a hard fought out win in the end by the boys with their backs up against it. Worth a look.

Have a great trip.

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Wadda We Sing

[Cards13 9,117]

8 hours ago, Skuit said:

Hey Wadda. I'm in Faja de Grande in Flores - the Western-most point of Europe - and it's absolutely stunning. Decided as such to take @Cards13 advice and give the game a miss. The first win I haven't seen live for over five years - the last while I was airborne. Cheers Cards.

Still, by the sounds of it I'm not sure if I really do want to watch the replay. 

 

So you’ve read the post game thread and some News about the “quality” of the game... my pleasure Skuit, whatever you did would have been more enjoyable than bleeding you’re eyeballs watching that game.

[beelzebub 23,383]

19 hours ago, Nasher said:

I can separate the bitter disappointment of the season from small, in the moment wins. In my brain it’s possible for both to be true. Fairo if Steve, Jaded, Bub and others can’t.

I am fully capable of separation Nasher. I am also fully capable of my own assessments and have the prerogative to my own reactions.

Our WIN was more like NOT-LOSING...We did everything ..again to steal a loss from Victory...somehow we stuffed that up and still won.  A Another minute..or a few less and we were indeed losers. By all means take whatever joy you wish to take from the occasion.

All a bit too much like finding a Fiver in your pocket when your broke and spend it on a beer. It tastes good...but strangely you're still broke. All youve really managed to achieve is numbing reality for a brief moment. Reality is reality..I'm a realist.

In case no one has really noticed we've gone through another rebuild ( squandered ) ...had all the hype of looking like we're getting somewhere...only to fall over...and over.  The Boards are now back to discussing  priority picks and looking to our draftees with that demented laughter that this IS the panacea..In other words we're right back where we've been for god knows how long...one of the irrelevant teams at the bottom of the ladder.

Rose coloured glasses are fine but when you add a lot of our dark blue to them the view gets very overcast.