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POSTGAME: Rd 12 vs Collingwood

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34 minutes ago, binman said:

It is beyond debate he is carrying something (and it's not the team). You just have look a his kicking. He struggles to make the distance from 40 out. 

The weird thing is goody was directly asked about tmac playing going forward and he was unequivocal that he would remain in the team.

Leaving aside the issue of injury and the logic of resting him to get right it is is hard to mount a case he should remain in the team on form. His timing on marks is completely out of wack. No better example than the free he gave away on the wing for going too early. Should have swallowed that mark.

He looks aimless when he’s leaping at the football. And by leaping I mean jumping a few inches off the ground. It’s like he sticks his arms in the air as a token gesture. There was a perfect example in the last quarter when the ball just smacked him in the face. He doesn’t even look remotely like taking a mark. 

I can only hope Goodwin is backing him in when cornered at the presser. Surely on form his spot in the side is being seriously considered. He himself would be extremely frustrated at how he’s playing which can’t be doing his confidence much good. It’s an accumulative effect. 

He should be either rested for the remainder of the year to get himself right, or if he’s fit, a spell in the twos. This can’t go on for the rest of the year.

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1 hour ago, Grand New Flag said:

It is clear TMac I’m injured. Toe, Foot, Groin not sure but he has no power, no speed and has lost his ability to kick through the ball.  It’s obvious for all to see.

As such TMac should be put to pasture for the remainder of the season. Get him right for 2020 and let’s get a good look at TSmith, JSmith (when he returns) and all other tall forwards.

Agree. All the signs are there that he is being handicapped. Put him out and get it right for next year.

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2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Agree. All the signs are there that he is being handicapped. Put him out and get it right for next year.

I'm now convinced the boy ain't right

Too valuable to risk now

Put him on the indefinite list and have him all fired up, ready to go after his Xmas pud

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1 minute ago, jumbo returns said:

What's happened to @Wiseblood

You okay?

Been thinking the same. MIA for a while it seems.

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10 hours ago, Beetle said:

Great post Bing. Spargo is an absolute scapegoat for our forward line problems.

He obviously has his current limitations (speed, kicking penetration), but he at least gets amongst it and makes a contest.

Garlett should be sent to Casey and never return.

Spargo is neither the problem or the scape goat, at this stage hes just a nothing. I can see the good things he does, neat kicks that often end up being scoring chains, presents and gets to where he should be and thats it. When he gets to where the ball is he is to often beaten. Doesnt kick enough goals and defenders dont worry about him.

I read earlier someone state that hes brendon McCartny's pet project this year. Do track, brayshaw, oliver and our other young guys with big potential stroke his ego as much as if he developes these type. I know he worked close with harmes, but why does it always seem to be a rookie or lower draft pick. I would love for these p lkayers to actually improve to stardom.

1 hour ago, Grand New Flag said:

Viney is another who is clearly carrying an injury. He too should be put to pasture to get right for 2020.

 

46 minutes ago, binman said:

It is beyond debate he is carrying something (and it's not the team). You just have look a his kicking. He struggles to make the distance from 40 out. 

The weird thing is goody was directly asked about tmac playing going forward and he was unequivocal that he would remain in the team.

Leaving aside the issue of injury and the logic of resting him to get right it is is hard to mount a case he should remain in the team on form. His timing on marks is completely out of wack. No better example than the free he gave away on the wing for going too early. Should have swallowed that mark.

Its just amazing we continue to play them injured, i dont know for sure but you would assume its related to the previous injuries that they tried to play through and made it worse.

Viney going out for a rest may even jump start oliver back into form like last time. A fit viney oliver brayshaw and harmes with jones still in there with our setups seem to hurt all their form.

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27 minutes ago, P-man said:

He looks aimless when he’s leaping at the football. And by leaping I mean jumping a few inches off the ground. It’s like he sticks his arms in the air as a token gesture. There was a perfect example in the last quarter when the ball just smacked him in the face. He doesn’t even look remotely like taking a mark. 

I can only hope Goodwin is backing him in when cornered at the presser. Surely on form his spot in the side is being seriously considered. He himself would be extremely frustrated at how he’s playing which can’t be doing his confidence much good. It’s an accumulative effect. 

He should be either rested for the remainder of the year to get himself right, or if he’s fit, a spell in the twos. This can’t go on for the rest of the year.

Is my hungover brain correct in remembering that it was turf toe? i recall fremantle dealing with aaron sandilands when he had the same issue. Dont hold me to this but i think he too tried to play through, then rested came back and flared up again and i think he was out for a large period of time. Freo put one of the top ruckman in the afl out for the betterment of sandilands and fremantles long term prospects. modified his training and sandilands came back and was able to play at a high level.

When we hired misson most people were excited, he was a vast improvement from the i dont feel like doing a time trail days. I can recall afew posters airing concern that our long term doc was pushed out and misson given more control of players.

I know misson is already leaving and when your not winning you look for people to blame, but the way we handle injury is the poorest in the league. People joke about may and kk at gold coast, being able to get them better, do you think potential players look at our strike rate and think its a positive. All the way back to mitch clarke we have ruined players careers.

We as fans were getting frustrated, how was action not taken earlier? I know misson had a contract, but surely some support would have helped.

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14 hours ago, Sorry kids said:

The utter disrespect that Goodwin shows the wings at the MCG is embarrassing ...

Nobody cares that we smash them in clearances because they know nobody on the outside can do anything with it

The key to games on the 'G - the game styles change every few years, the personnel change sometimes quicker than that, the goal to goal line is static and the space at the 'G is the best there is and always has been ... wonder what Robbie would think, and Dixon, and Alves just to name a few ... wingmen with good feet and some pace will win you games, Mr Goodwin, and are critical to getting a forward set-up working the spaces.

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Did anyone see at the start of the 2nd quarter they had the camera on Viney who was sitting on the bench and did not once looked impressed. His body language looked quite poor.

Also just thinking this morning that James Harmes is slowly becoming our number 1 best midfielder. Thought Brayshaw was showing glimpse of the player he was last year when he was at his best.

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10 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

Yup.   Things really are that bad.

Zero flags since 1964.  A pitiful total of two Grand Finals in that time, and destroyed in both of them.  A miracle this club has any supporters left.

 

Annual membership fees, supporting fund raisers, going along to games and wearing the colours, supporting the Demon Shop with merchandise procurements, attending Club functions, trudging the railway stations amid jubilant opposition supporters on the way home, travelling from Adelaide over a 9-hour drive and 9-hour return drive to get to home games at the 'G, buying newspapers to keep abreast of (any) news about the team ... it all sounds like commitment to me, and some do far more than I can. Such commitment, this year more than ever, makes me feel like a Patsy. How do you feel?

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2 hours ago, poita said:

Not our worst game of the year by a long shot, but we are miles off being a decent team.

The good: Gawn's game was excellent, Harmes was very good, Petracca had some good moments, May was solid first game back.

The bad: Our goalkicking remains putrid. Lever and Hore spent half the day crashing into teammates in marking contests. Wagner and Spargo were their usual inept selves. Viney and Jones had zero influence on the game. Hibberd continues to struggle. The early loss of Frost was costly.

The ugly: Oliver 33 possessions for 54 metres gained. What purpose did any of his touches serve? McDonald continued his abysmal form and I really can't see that he is adding any value to the team in his current role. Garlett's inability to put his body on the line - I can't believe an AFL footballer is allow to snatch at the ball whilst avoiding all contact. Tim Smith's inability to play more than two games in a row without getting injured - please delist.

Co Captain’s giving zero influence to the game....

that happens way too often

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A gaulling result as Coll were a long way from their best, Grundy played injured and they didn't get out of third gear. 

 

The narrative has changed from preseason/injuries being our problem to skill/efficiency being our problem.  All true but are they the real problem?.

Elephant in the room:  Game Plan.  Based on last night's comments by Goodwin and Jones everyone knows it but them.

Opposition mantra:  'match them on the inside and we will beat them on the outside'.  Translated as:  let them 'win' the clearances, contested possessions and i50 stats because we know they will turn it over and they can't catch us going fwd to get easy goals!!

That is why I no longer have faith in us winning those statistics.  The opp are happy to 'lose' in those areas knowing they will belt us elsewhere.  Akin to 'lose the battle but win the war' tactics.

I don't want to lose faith in our leaders but I need to hear something from the club to say they understand the real problem and prepared to address what everyone else knows!!

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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Apologies if it’s been mentioned already but the modern day coaching is frustrating. How did Garlett end up one out with DeGoey in our back 50? 

I don’t think I ever saw Farmer in the back pocket.

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19 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A gaulling result as Coll were a long way from their best, Grundy played injured and they didn't get out of third gear. 

 

The narrative has changed from preseason/injuries being our problem to skill/efficiency being our problem.  All true but are the the real problem?.

Elephant in the room:  Game Plan.  Based on last night's comments by Goodwin and Jones everyone knows it but them.

Opposition mantra:  'match them on the inside and we will beat them on the outside'.  Translated as:  let them win clearances, contested possessions and i50 because we know they will turn it over and they can't catch us going fwd to get easy goals!!

That is why I no longer have faith in us winning those statistics.  The opp are happy to 'lose' in those areas knowing they will belt us elsewhere.  Akin to 'lose the battle but win the war' tactics.

I don't want to lose faith in our leaders but I need to hear something from the club to say they understand the real problem and prepared to address what everyone else knows!!

Agree with all of this - Melbourne are being beaten the same way every week. 

Throughout the day I heard three different Collingwood players state that Melbourne would rush at the ball in all parts of the ground, and they would simply pick the ball/ball carrier off once the ball was won by Melbourne.

In the finals last year, Geelong and Hawthorn tried to match Melbourne at this without success. West Coast played smarter rather than harder, knowing that the high press, rush the ball, 'chaos' style can be countered if you back off a little, encircle and pressure the ball carrier, and are willing to push the ball into space once the turnover is achieved. 

Teams seem to be allowing Melbourne's gameplan to play out as scripted without fear it will damage them and comfortable that it will allow them to be efficient the other way. That this is continuing after 13 games is an absolute indictment on the club.

Yes, the list has been in bad shape (and mismanaged imo), but I also believe that Melbourne looks like it's players are unfit, slow, and lazy because the gameplan is horrendously inefficient (i.e. so much work has to be done to score and defend), and places people out of position for anything but push forward, repeat stoppage, and contested ball win. There are two key examples of this that are happening each and every game: 1) The forward line 'box' setup that asked the ball to be placed inside that box 30m out from goal, leading to what seems to be a crowded and unskilled forward line as forwards rush the ball and compete against eachother; and 2) The midfield instruction to win the ball at all costs, where midfielders are either out of position once the ball is lost (too close to the play), or are unable to break through the encirclement and are out of position once the ball is turned over.

 

Time to try and construct some goals through control and creativity, rather than just beating other teams over the head through brute force. Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, Gawn, Jones, Harmes, etc. are all great ball winners, and it's time to allow them to do that and build the team around them winning the ball as opposed to having the entire team emulate them.

 

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11 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Apologies if it’s been mentioned already but the modern day coaching is frustrating. How did Garlett end up one out with DeGoey in our back 50? 

I don’t think I ever saw Farmer in the back pocket.

I imagine DeGoey cheated forward (which opposition teams have every right to do against Melbourne) and our midfielders/defenders were ball hunting as usual. I imagine Garlett ran back to cover for someone else not doing their job. 

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5 minutes ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

I imagine DeGoey cheated forward (which opposition teams have every right to do against Melbourne) and our midfielders/defenders were ball hunting as usual. I imagine Garlett ran back to cover for someone else not doing their job. 

Maybe, but Salem was off the ground getting his head stitched as was frost so perhaps they told him to go down back (though i doubt thy told him to lose his feet and gift a goal).

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7 minutes ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

Agree with all of this - Melbourne are being beaten the same way every week. 

Throughout the day I heard three different Collingwood players state that Melbourne would rush at the ball in all parts of the ground, and they would simply pick the ball/ball carrier off once the ball was won by Melbourne.

In the finals last year, Geelong and Hawthorn tried to match Melbourne at this without success. West Coast played smarter rather than harder, knowing that the high press, rush the ball, 'chaos' style can be countered if you back off a little, encircle and pressure the ball carrier, and are willing to push the ball into space once the turnover is achieved. 

Teams seem to be allowing Melbourne's gameplan to play out as scripted without fear it will damage them and comfortable that it will allow them to be efficient the other way. That this is continuing after 13 games is an absolute indictment on the club.

Yes, the list has been in bad shape (and mismanaged imo), but I also believe that Melbourne looks like it's players are unfit, slow, and lazy because the gameplan is horrendously inefficient (i.e. so much work has to be done to score and defend), and places people out of position for anything but push forward, repeat stoppage, and contested ball win. There are two key examples of this that are happening each and every game: 1) The forward line 'box' setup that asked the ball to be placed inside that box 30m out from goal, leading to what seems to be a crowded and unskilled forward line as forwards rush the ball and compete against eachother; and 2) The midfield instruction to win the ball at all costs, where midfielders are either out of position once the ball is lost (too close to the play), or are unable to break through the encirclement and are out of position once the ball is turned over.

 

Time to try and construct some goals through control and creativity, rather than just beating other teams over the head through brute force. Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, Gawn, Jones, Harmes, etc. are all great ball winners, and it's time to allow them to do that and build the team around them winning the ball as opposed to having the entire team emulate them.

 

Of course  this would be countered if Melbourne kicked the goals that continually miss. We havent hurt the opposition when presented with the opportunity so the pressure on the ball carrier ramps up and in response we goo harder and so the cycle continues so we are dead on our feet at the end.

If we are going to play this style of game two things are needed .

1) we must convert all our opportunities

2) We must be the fittest team in the competition

We are neither and the seasons  results speak for them selves.

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Our defenders were good yesterday but I feel there are structural/game plan problems there.  We seem to be the only team that plays a few meters off opp and allows them to stay goal side. 

This is Goodwin's structural set up to attack when there is a t/o in our defensive 50.  Problem is that t/o rarely happens as shown by the high opp goal to behind ratio and high goal to i50.  Our defenders don't even have a chance to rush behinds or get back to the goal square. 

I would like to see us revert to less attacking defensive structures.  At least until we can reduce the opp goals to i50 ratio.

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2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

I'm now convinced the boy ain't right

Too valuable to risk now

Put him on the indefinite list and have him all fired up, ready to go after his Xmas pud

 

2 hours ago, P-man said:

Been thinking the same. MIA for a while it seems.

He popped his head in a few weeks ago -cited wrist slasher fatigue (my words, not his) and claimed he was better off without the Demonland downer every week.

I feel the same way sometimes. The endless catastrophising and wallowing in self-pity absolutely does my head in. Just reading it makes me feel drained and tired. Then you get the joys of being abused about it when you have the audacity to try and look on the bright side when things aren’t going well. I usually stay away for a few days after losses, was feeling a bit braver this week though.

Edit: I quoted the wrong jumbo returns post, meant to quote the one about @Wiseblood.

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13 minutes ago, Nasher said:

 

He popped his head in a few weeks ago -cited wrist slasher fatigue (my words, not his) and claimed he was better off without the Demonland downer every week.

I feel the same way sometimes. The endless catastrophising and wallowing in self-pity absolutely does my head in. Just reading it makes me feel drained and tired. Then you get the joys of being abused about it when you have the audacity to try and look on the bright side when things aren’t going well. I usually stay away for a few days after losses, was feeling a bit braver this week though.

Edit: I quoted the wrong jumbo returns post, meant to quote the one about @Wiseblood.

And....whilst we're at it, where's @stevethemanjordan? And Colin B Flaubert?

Sometimes, we all need perspective...

You scared them away, Coach Nasher??

Edited by jumbo returns

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3 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

And....whilst we're at it, where's @stevethemanjordan? And Colin B Flaubert?

Sometimes, we all need perspective...

You scared them away, Coach Nasher??

Stmj is definitely still around, pretty sure I saw a post of his this morning. Dunno about CBF, his name doesn’t appear in the tag list at all. Alias change?

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My (perhaps optimistic assessment) 

Midfield and ruck we probably shaded the Pies slightly (It would have been messy had we not had big Max, not for the first time this year). Good to see improved output from Angus and Oliver and Harmes maintained their standing. Jones did a decent job on Steele after quarter time when he was well off the chain. 

Backline, about even. Great effort from a close to all new back 6. Defended well as a unit and only De Goey was clearly too good for his opponent when 1 on 1 irrespective of who was on him. 

Forward line, debacle. Not 1 of our forwards won their position (perhaps could mount an argument for Petracca). No cohesion, talls getting in one anothers way, constantly over crowded, just mess! 

For mine we need to find 4 things and we'll be right... 

1. a new forward / offensive strategy and / or coach  

2. the 2018 version of Tom McDonald 

3. the 2017 version of Jeff Garlett 

4. a faster, bigger, stronger Charlie Spargo 

I'll go check under that rock, be right back! 

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5 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Earlier this year there was a video of him on Instagram at a wedding with no shoes on because they hurt his foot.

His foot injury is clearly worse than has been let on.

Based on form alone he should not be in the team.

... and which part of the foot do shoes hurt normally.?

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1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A gaulling result as Coll were a long way from their best, Grundy played injured and they didn't get out of third gear. 

 

The narrative has changed from preseason/injuries being our problem to skill/efficiency being our problem.  All true but are they the real problem?.

Elephant in the room:  Game Plan.  Based on last night's comments by Goodwin and Jones everyone knows it but them.

Opposition mantra:  'match them on the inside and we will beat them on the outside'.  Translated as:  let them 'win' the clearances, contested possessions and i50 stats because we know they will turn it over and they can't catch us going fwd to get easy goals!!

That is why I no longer have faith in us winning those statistics.  The opp are happy to 'lose' in those areas knowing they will belt us elsewhere.  Akin to 'lose the battle but win the war' tactics.

I don't want to lose faith in our leaders but I need to hear something from the club to say they understand the real problem and prepared to address what everyone else knows!!

I hope you have a good book or too at hand LH

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1 hour ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

I imagine DeGoey cheated forward (which opposition teams have every right to do against Melbourne) and our midfielders/defenders were ball hunting as usual. I imagine Garlett ran back to cover for someone else not doing their job. 

Spot on. Steven May gestured to Garlett "my fault"

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