On 20/03/2019 at 00:14, Clint Bizkit said:

No, he runs under the ball.

No, the ball just keeps going over his head.

  On 19/03/2019 at 23:27, Watson11 said:

Maybe the mids can start kicking it to where he is running and not over his head so much 

 

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:14, Clint Bizkit said:

No, he runs under the ball.

 

It's a bit of both sometimes but generally I'd say it's more to do with the quality of ball coming in to our key forwards.

It's a concern I have for this season and have always had. Game-style wise, we're fairly one dimensional.

We rely on grunt and contested ball winning and have recruited players who fit that mould. Unfortunately it has resulted in players who are not so strong with their ball-use.

Brayshaw is the perfect example, if you go back and watch the Brisbane game you'll see that most of his forward entries were actually more advantageous to the opposition backmen and the same went for the Richmond game. A prolific ball winner, but generally he kicks to bad spots or misjudges his kick when going long which made it very difficult for Tom and Sam to play to their strengths in the JLT.

I'll have no concerns with the amount of ball we'll win in the midfield against Port on the weekend, but it's going to get quite annoying if we see no improvement in connection from mid to forward from players like Petracca, Brayshaw, ANB etc.

As great as it is that Gus is back playing his natural position and winning ball, he is not hurting opposition with his ball movement on most occasions and I'd like to see that change.

 

The same can be said for many of our players who drop off significantly in any area of their games.

ANB is another perfect example. I'm completely aware of the role he plays within our team. He is a high pressure and gut running half forward who creates an outnumber at contests. But when his skills are as down as they were for both JLT games, he is rendered useless imo because he is giving the ball back to opposition.

Too many were down in certain aspects of their games against Brissy which is why they got us in the end. Whether it's Oscar not being able to halve enough contests, ANB being way down with his skills, Gus and Petracca not being damaging enough with their ball use, it all adds up.

During this flag window (next 3-5 years) we need to find individual consistency in game day performance so that if players like Oliver, Viney, Gawn, T-Mac or Jetta have down days, we have others playing high level footy that ultimately get us over the line in games.

All the great teams of previous years have had this.

We're still young and there's still a lot of growth left.

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:40, stevethemanjordan said:

As great as it is that Gus is back playing his natural position and winning ball, he is not hurting opposition with his ball movement on most occasions and I'd like to see that change.

 

Fully agree with this, and I got roasted here for saying something similar recently. The cop out of "his disposal isn't going to be great as he is constantly disposing of the footy under pressure" was floated and I think that is ridiculous. The thing is, smart ball placement for attacking kicks can't always be taught and we may be looking at the best version of Gussy we'll get right now (which I still love FWIW). 

I'm still hopeful that KK can fill the connection void between mid and forward as I doubt our ball winning grunts have the scope to improve in that area meaningfully. 

  On 20/03/2019 at 01:05, Smokey said:

Fully agree with this, and I got roasted here for saying something similar recently. The cop out of "his disposal isn't going to be great as he is constantly disposing of the footy under pressure" was floated and I think that is ridiculous. The thing is, smart ball placement for attacking kicks can't always be taught and we may be looking at the best version of Gussy we'll get right now (which I still love FWIW). 

I'm still hopeful that KK can fill the connection void between mid and forward as I doubt our ball winning grunts have the scope to improve in that area meaningfully. 

Yep.

Demonland is a place of extremism. If you give criticism, you must be a hater. 

Kicking to the advantage of a forward is obviously very different to a lace out pass, which is different to kicking to a contest, which is again different to kicking to a contest to the advantage of an opposition player. And there are in between kicks in all of that too.

With or without pressure, our players need to be smarter with ball in hand.

Jones made the change after a couple of years in the system and Brayshaw needs to follow suit along with a few others.

Edited March 20, 20196 yr by stevethemanjordan

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:40, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

It's a bit of both sometimes but generally I'd say it's more to do with the quality of ball coming in to our key forwards.

It's a concern I have for this season and have always had. Game-style wise, we're fairly one dimensional.

We rely on grunt and contested ball winning and have recruited players who fit that mould. Unfortunately it has resulted in players who are not so strong with their ball-use.

 

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

They have absolutely prioritized grunt over skill in their drafting and trading, and i said at the time i was bit surprised they went with say swallow rather than a player with better foot skills (though perhaps one wasn't out there).

Our approach of kicking long to 20 metres out from goal , usually to a big pack was on full display in the JLT. This approach  doesn't necessarily require brilliant kicks but it does require good decision makers (ie when not to go with that approach and instead hit up a target) and players who can put the ball in a landing spot that advantages our forwards. Which as i have noted before is much underrated skill and we pretty hopeless at it.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

  On 20/03/2019 at 01:20, binman said:

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

When teams match us at "our" game, (winning ball at the coalface) then we generally struggle. See Brissy in JLT, West Coast Prelim, Collingwood Queen's bday last year etc.

We were able to come back against Hawthorn after half time of the semi because of our talent. They were also missing Jaeger.

I just want to see us evolve so that if teams do match it with us in the middle of the ground, we have some other ways of winning. The game requires that.

And I'm not sure you can put Jones in the same category as those others you've mentioned. Last year was the first year I saw him drop off a little with his ball use. Years gone by he has been a really smart kick which was almost always kicked to the advantage of a leading forward.

 

Edited March 20, 20196 yr by stevethemanjordan

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:40, stevethemanjordan said:

A prolific ball winner, but generally he kicks to bad spots or misjudges his kick when going long

It's an area of his game I expect will improve and it does need work.

I'm sure he's aware of it...

He's coming in to this year with only 58 games under his belt so he has time on his side.

  On 20/03/2019 at 01:20, binman said:

I agree our game plan is relatively one dimensional, though I'm not so sure i agree that it is an issue for us. What i wholeheartedly agree is that we have weakness with our kicking skills. To me it is our biggest weakness.

They have absolutely prioritized grunt over skill in their drafting and trading, and i said at the time i was bit surprised they went with say swallow rather than a player with better foot skills (though perhaps one wasn't out there).

Our approach of kicking long to 20 metres out from goal , usually to a big pack was on full display in the JLT. This approach  doesn't necessarily require brilliant kicks but it does require good decision makers (ie when not to go with that approach and instead hit up a target) and players who can put the ball in a landing spot that advantages our forwards. Which as i have noted before is much underrated skill and we pretty hopeless at it.

And yes Gus is one player that struggles with it. So is Jones, ANB, Hunt and several other key players who we rely on for the majority of our inside 50s. Trac on the other hand is really good at it as rule, but often he is inside 50 and Melk is in the same boat. 

They did a drill today that was one weighted kick to a player cutting on a 45 backwards lead from half back to the wing, then a long flat 40m kick to a leading forward 40m from goal. That's a different approach.

The reality is the best way to score is to go quick from half back, get the ball forward and either score or lock it in and create those repeat entries. Going slow from half back/midfield when you get a chance gets you no where. Even the precision Hawks were bombing it last year because speed of entry meant more than precision.

As for our overall kicking skills:
-The first choice back 7 are all above average kicks.
- The hope surely is Gus, Harmes, Tracc, Oliver all improve and if they keep finding the ball they should. Harmes took a step forward last year and Brayshaw is the main one who gets the ball on the outside and needs to stop butchering it. No more left foot heaves when running in open space, save them from where they are useful in congestion.
- Fritsch, Kolodjasnij, Spargo are 3 efforts to bring in more skills to the inside 50's. Get them the ball on the wing and half forward and good things will happen
- Baker is more speed than precision kicking but line breaking run creates the same inside 50 benefit that good skills do. Jordon is a lovely kick who could play half forward or wing if not half back. Hannan can hit targets. Chandler and Lockhart have potential from what I've seen as nice kicks. 

I'd like to improve the kicking but a good crumbing forward would make the messy forward entries better and getting back on topic a good crumber would pair really well with Weid. 

Getting more run and spread to open space from a contest will help the inside 50's too. Throwing numbers at the contest against the good teams really hurt us last year.

I thought a forward running under the ball would normally be the fault of the kicker. Forwards are taught to hit their leads at full possible pace. If they do that then it becomes pretty difficult to pull up if the delivering kick is crappy.

It finally clicked for Collingwood in the finals last year when rather than just bombing it in, they kicked it to a spot in front of Mason Cox which allowed him to run and jump at it. They took height off the kick and kind of just 'popped' it to him a bit lower and flat, allowing him to get a little separation from his man and if needed the ball was kicked on top of the head of an opponent which allowed Cox to jump all over them.

With Weid's jump and reach we should be doing the same thing. So often it's just bombed and it comes down on top of him which is easy for the opposition to spoil and nudge him off just a little if needed.

If we lay it up properly he either gets a good run at it and will crash the pack at the very least, and if he's blocked before he gets to the ball he gets a free kick. Pretty simple but it seems we're instructed to just get it in as quickly as possible.

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:14, Clint Bizkit said:

No, he runs under the ball.

 

  On 20/03/2019 at 00:29, In Harmes Way said:

No, the ball just keeps going over his head.

 

Hmmm .. maybe we can find some middle ground that will please everyone. Such as ... Weideman is no good and nor are our midfielders.

  On 20/03/2019 at 04:40, Mazer Rackham said:

 

 

Hmmm .. maybe we can find some middle ground that will please everyone. Such as ... Weideman is no good and nor are our midfielders.

 

In a few days, all will be revealed - I hope our JLT form is just that and not season proper form line. We now have injury and suspensions that will mean we don't hit round 1 with our best possible team. Everyone will need to perform including Weid if we are to put the first win on the board this week  

  On 20/03/2019 at 01:30, stevethemanjordan said:

1. When teams match us at "our" game, (winning ball at the coalface) then we generally struggle. See Brissy in JLT, West Coast Prelim, Collingwood Queen's bday last year etc.

 

2. And I'm not sure you can put Jones in the same category as those others you've mentioned. Last year was the first year I saw him drop off a little with his ball use. Years gone by he has been a really smart kick which was almost always kicked to the advantage of a leading forward.

 

1. That's partly true. I think though teams have to do more than match us in contested ball to beat us, they have to surpass us in that area, as was the case in the examples you give. But even if we were to employ a modified game plan if we don't bring the 'Melbourne' style we are in trouble. But the reality is teams rarely match us and we back our model in. 

But for me the answer is not a modified game plan - it is better skills. We waste way too many forward 50 entries because of poor kicks in and poor decisions. Exacerbating this issue is that we turn the ball over too often at HB or through the middle of the ground.

A perfect example is the hawks semi. You're right they matched our grunt but we should have been 5 goals up at half time. We weren't because we wasted so many inside 50s and had some howlers where we gave the ball back, trurninbg potential attacks into Hawks shots on goals.   

 2. Yep you're right. I was probably being a bit hard on Jones. He has absolutely improved his kicking and is now one of our more reliable kicks, though i still think he makes some poor decisions going inside 50 sometimes. 

Edited March 20, 20196 yr by binman

  On 20/03/2019 at 02:11, DeeSpencer said:

They did a drill today that was one weighted kick to a player cutting on a 45 backwards lead from half back to the wing, then a long flat 40m kick to a leading forward 40m from goal. That's a different approach.

The reality is the best way to score is to go quick from half back, get the ball forward and either score or lock it in and create those repeat entries. Going slow from half back/midfield when you get a chance gets you no where. Even the precision Hawks were bombing it last year because speed of entry meant more than precision.

As for our overall kicking skills:
-The first choice back 7 are all above average kicks.
- The hope surely is Gus, Harmes, Tracc, Oliver all improve and if they keep finding the ball they should. Harmes took a step forward last year and Brayshaw is the main one who gets the ball on the outside and needs to stop butchering it. No more left foot heaves when running in open space, save them from where they are useful in congestion.
- Fritsch, Kolodjasnij, Spargo are 3 efforts to bring in more skills to the inside 50's. Get them the ball on the wing and half forward and good things will happen
- Baker is more speed than precision kicking but line breaking run creates the same inside 50 benefit that good skills do. Jordon is a lovely kick who could play half forward or wing if not half back. Hannan can hit targets. Chandler and Lockhart have potential from what I've seen as nice kicks. 

I'd like to improve the kicking but a good crumbing forward would make the messy forward entries better and getting back on topic a good crumber would pair really well with Weid. 

Getting more run and spread to open space from a contest will help the inside 50's too. Throwing numbers at the contest against the good teams really hurt us last year.

Good post.

Speed of movement is absolutely the key to our game plan.

Good to hear they are practicing another mode of entry. It is is important to remember they are still a team putting all of the pieces together and need to get each piece right before adding another.

I agree on the need for a good crumber. Would make bombs in much, much more dangerous. I'm not sold yet spargo is that crumber. Really we need Jeffy to get back to his best but that is a long way from a certainty. Could Sparrow play that role?

This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

  On 20/03/2019 at 05:32, Engorged Onion said:

This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

For me 30 goals and providing a genuine contest and tackle pressure is a pass.  

2 or more goals a game would be a distinction.

  On 14/02/2019 at 10:58, Wrecker45 said:

I’m going to be very unpopular here and say i’m not convinced.

He is good at ground level but in the air I don’t see it.

Even in that final the marks he took fell to him and he didn’t take them cleanly.

i’m hoping it’s a strength thing and he proves me wrong with a greater upper body.

 

His final performance was amazing, but so was Tom Boyd’s GF.

We gotta be careful making that game the benchmark; and rather what is possible for KPP that won’t fill out for another 2 years.

I will take his 6 and 7 out of 10 games in 19/20; over the 2 and 8 out of 10 games that Hogan may have provided.  Don’t know if the inpatient supporter base will.

 

  On 19/03/2019 at 02:10, Moonshadow said:

And win a Norm Smith.....

And a Coleman?

  On 20/03/2019 at 05:32, Engorged Onion said:

This thread to me highlights the anxiety for some folk about what we have as our forward stocks... which is fair enough, so ill keep this reductionist.

What is pass mark for Sam this year?

 Me: 2 goals a game avg: 2 score involvements and creating space for TMAC.

So better than Hogan!  Hogan career 2.1 goals per game & 0.6 goal assists.

  On 20/03/2019 at 05:19, binman said:

Good post.

Speed of movement is absolutely the key to our game plan.

Good to hear they are practicing another mode of entry. It is is important to remember they are still a team putting all of the pieces together and need to get each piece right before adding another.

I agree on the need for a good crumber. Would make bombs in much, much more dangerous. I'm not sold yet spargo is that crumber. Really we need Jeffy to get back to his best but that is a long way from a certainty. Could Sparrow play that role?

Agree DeeSpencer post was good.

Give Spargo some time, last year was first season after interrupted pre season, so hopefully this year will be better. 

I would like to see Clarry kick more, as he is a smart ball user.

Dangerfield & Martin both have very average disposal efficiency rating, due to pressure when kicking, and this impacts our mids as well. Disapppointing part is when player is clear and gives it to opposition, ANB, AVB, Hunt and Brayshaw at times are guilty. 

As DeeSpencer highlighted KK, Fritsch, Spargo, Melksham, all use ball well, most of the backs are good, Weid smart with ball in hand, so we should be improving.

Some players like TMac & Hunt probably better near goals, get ball go for goal, nothing to think about.

As highest scoring team last year, only need some small improvements to make a big difference.

Go Dees can’t wait for Saturday!

  On 20/03/2019 at 20:51, ManDee said:

So better than Hogan!  Hogan career 2.1 goals per game & 0.6 goal assists.

Oh! Well, thanks for the reality slap there @ManDee - maybe I’m still caught in the late 80’s early 90’s full forward expectations. 

  On 20/03/2019 at 05:12, binman said:

1. That's partly true. I think though teams have to do more than match us in contested ball to beat us, they have to surpass us in that area, as was the case in the examples you give. But even if we were to employ a modified game plan if we don't bring the 'Melbourne' style we are in trouble.

 

  On 20/03/2019 at 05:12, binman said:

But for me the answer is not a modified game plan - it is better skills.

I agree. now we've built our platform Melbourne style of hard at it contested footy.   We do not need to change away from this,  but rather add better and better skilled players along the pathway,  doing the same style.

Growth via culture,  and attrition,  as players overtake one another, for spots.

But the old NoN-Negotiable is ???

... contested footy.   physical play.  effort.

  On 17/03/2019 at 15:38, 58er said:

Assustance in goals will come from 

Tommy Mac 50/60 

Smithy 30/35

Milkshake 30

Trac 30 (if accuracy more maybe)

ANB 25 easy goals 

AVB 20 tough goals

Pruess anD Maxy 25 marking/kicking goals.

Clarry/Angus resting 20 plus depending upon time up forward.

and crumbers Spargs Jeffy Hannan And say Chandler/Bedford  Hunty 35 or more total.

Versatile players like wingers and other mids Stretch Jack V Jonesy Salem will also feature.

 

Scenes when OMac bags his first though. 

  On 20/03/2019 at 22:19, D4Life said:

Agree DeeSpencer post was good.

Give Spargo some time, last year was first season after interrupted pre season, so hopefully this year will be better. 

I would like to see Clarry kick more, as he is a smart ball user.

Dangerfield & Martin both have very average disposal efficiency rating, due to pressure when kicking, and this impacts our mids as well. Disapppointing part is when player is clear and gives it to opposition, ANB, AVB, Hunt and Brayshaw at times are guilty. 

As DeeSpencer highlighted KK, Fritsch, Spargo, Melksham, all use ball well, most of the backs are good, Weid smart with ball in hand, so we should be improving.

Some players like TMac & Hunt probably better near goals, get ball go for goal, nothing to think about.

As highest scoring team last year, only need some small improvements to make a big difference.

Go Dees can’t wait for Saturday!

Your comment your comment on TMac partly correct "get ball go for goal" was shown so many times as his accuracy surprised most. However one of his strengths was his ability to run his opponents off their feet through endurance running. Hunt also has a speed factor as he ran away from offensively or up to defensively opponents applying pressure. Weird seemed to display some of both initial speed and some endurance.

i reckon a mobile forward churn with the players rotating and dragging their opponents out of their structures and into mis matches is what we are now capable of. Other teams have done this to us and we have not seemed to be able to use our resources so effectively in the past.

with Gawn or resting tall and small crumbers  and mids swarming into the forward area there can be more options created. 

I like the personnel, I will watch the structure and hope that skill levels are there. I am always concerned about our ability to retain structure and skill under intense pressure. I hope we have trained for that intensity as I think we will now attract greater intensity from our opponents.

We are in for an even more exciting year. GO DEES!!!