Farewell Jesse Hogan

[Lucifers Hero 40,361]

1 hour ago, dieter said:

Dunno what you guys are on about. Norf didn't trade Carey, why should we trade Hogan. ONE GOOD REASON.

Because he won't sign a contract extension which expires next year.  If he isn't going to extend why keep him hanging around.

And, our club doesn't need the media distraction of a 'will he, won't he' commentary throughout 2019. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[McQueen 17,867]

9 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

I admire your gumption.

But I can't go with you. If we had huge distractions around trade period for the next 8 years, but got 300 games of Jesse Hogan in return? I'd take that every day of the week, and so would almost any other club.

It's the price you pay for having good players. They always have a target on their back.

A couple of years ago that level of imagination wouldn’t have been possible. 

Things have changed a lot. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by McQueen

[KingDingAling 3,758]

If reports are correct and Fremantle are offering Hogan 1.2 million a year, then obviously Hogan has something to think about. Even if he didn't want a trade, those are the type of number that change an individuals life. Lets be fair. Everyone of us in Hogan's position would be looking at those numbers and weighing up our future. He probably takes the deal. I say that because I would take the deal, and everyone I know would take the deal. Throw in a potential to go back home and it becomes an easy decision. So Hogan probably goes.

What do we get? I would really hate MFC to waste anything on Steven May. I have watched football for 30 years and if Steven May is worth anything better than a 3rd round selection I will eat my hat. He is an undersized backman, who is slow, an ineffective. I see nothing in May at all. I have watched him closely the past two years because for some reason people mention him as a top class backman. He isn't a top class backman at all, he is really not much chop. I would have him on par with Pederson.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Just now, McQueen said:

A couple of years ago this level of imagination wouldn’t have been possible. 

Things have changed a lot. 

Sure have. I always look back at the Buddy one. Hawks fans were always relatively at peace with it. They'd won a flag with him, and were looking to the future despite getting very little back. I'm hoping I can get to that stage.

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

30 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

I've watched us get screwed while clubs like Hawks and Pies give up junk for players like Omeara, Aish and others...

I see your point. 2 firsts etc etc...

My view, and I've been saying this for a long time now, is that 2 firsts isn't actually enough. It sounds great, but break it down. The two Freo picks are likely 4 and 5 (5 and 6 after Lynch moves)... which isn't enough to get Max King. We would get May and another mid. Or May and a pick. Hell, even IF Max fell to us at 5, he's a 200+cm player... we had Watts and Weed take years to do anything of use, and neither were anything like the value Hogan is. Even if a KP player taken at that age came on, it'd be 5 years from now when we're in a different window. That's IF those picks turn out good at all. Which so often, they don't... especially talls.

Hogan, Weed, TMac... Now becomes TMac, Weed, Preuss... Spare me.

Lever, Omac, Frost now becomes May, Lever, Omac.... An improvement, but not much of one.

I just rate Jesse that highly that even 2 picks, while the going rate, doesn't fill me with enthusiasm.

I think you're overrating Hogan. And I think the club agrees with me because if he was really a super dooper superstar we wouldn't even entertain the idea of a trade.

My issues with Hogan are:
1. Pace - he's not super quick and so struggles to burn an opponent either on the lead or when the ball is on the ground

2. Leading patterns - repeatedly he gets out of position as a deep forward. Far better leading up the ground, but the way footy is played right now doesn't favour the lead up CHF. Similarly Tom McDonald is excellent in that role

3. Kicking skills - whilst his goal kicking has improved and is very good inside 45m the way he hooks the ball around his body means he struggles for distance and struggles to weight the ball inside 50. If he gets the ball 60m out it often ends with a turnover or dumped kick.

4. Lack of a leap - how often does he take the big pack grabs out reaching opponents - very rarely

5. Defensive effort - it's just not there. He tried much harder this year but it clearly doesn't come naturally to him. Poor tackler and again the lack of speed comes in here

I think Hogan is an excellent player - runs all day, clean hands on both sides of his body, mobile like a midfielder around the packs, kicks his goals at a good rate, but I don't think he's the special kind of player that will get the whole farm in a trade. 

I don't want draft picks for him, I think most are in agreement there, but if the trade is Hogan for May and another best 22 player with upside then I'd do that. May and Ed Langdon is my suggestion.

[Superunknown 4,223]

2 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

If reports are correct and Fremantle are offering Hogan 1.2 million a year, then obviously Hogan has something to think about. Even if he didn't want a trade, those are the type of number that change an individuals life. Lets be fair. Everyone of us in Hogan's position would be looking at those numbers and weighing up our future. He probably takes the deal. I say that because I would take the deal, and everyone I know would take the deal. Throw in a potential to go back home and it becomes an easy decision. So Hogan probably goes.

What do we get? I would really hate MFC to waste anything on Steven May. I have watched football for 30 years and if Steven May is worth anything better than a 3rd round selection I will eat my hat. He is an undersized backman, who is slow, an ineffective. I see nothing in May at all. I have watched him closely the past two years because for some reason people mention him as a top class backman. He isn't a top class backman at all, he is really not much chop. I would have him on par with Pederson.

Whomever we get can we get Yze-esque durability please? 400 games with no injury kthx

[Cards13 9,117]

 

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It would be a big loss but if he asks to go back to WA I wouldn't begrudge him that. If that eventuates then we try and get the best deal for the club and move on. Personally I'd rather Jack Martin than Steven May but May definitely fills a need. If we can get another top 10 pick/player as well (a mid preferably) we could potentially be better off.

Happy to put my hand up if I get it wrong, I still can’t get my head around it.

He hasn’t asked to be traded has he? Didn’t someone post in his exit interview he didn’t ask to be traded? 

[Demons11 7,051]

44 minutes ago, Jibroni said:

Why not? Crows got two 1sts for Lever with an exchange of later picks.

A recent example would be Pies giving up Pick 7 and future 1st for Treloar.

 

We gave up pick 10 and 15 for Lever.  This is my point 

[picket fence 17,500]

2 hours ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I’d accept brayshaw and their first rounder for hogan. 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

Reports say ... which reports ?? Who ??where??

it is continued trash journalism 

quote the reports

I am 50/50 on Hogan because he has such Huge Potential but also Huge Disappointing Attitude. 

Hogan is worth Freo first pick 6 plus Ed Langdon 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

 

Happy to put my hand up if I get it wrong, I still can’t get my head around it.

He hasn’t asked to be traded has he? Didn’t someone post in his exit interview he didn’t ask to be traded? 

I posted that.  It came from a line in the AFL article that he had his exit interview and no talk of a trade came up at all.  I just found that interesting in terms of what has suddenly changed in the last 24 hours to it not being discussed to him now potentially wanting out.

Still plenty of water to go under the bridge on this one.

[Dirts 429]

Simple equation.

Jesse wants home= cash in

Jesse wants to stay= get fit play next year

Long term Jesse wants out 2020= trade hard now.

 

want him to stay but also understand the potential value. Have heard whispers in the west about him maybe happy to go to dockers. I think would be smart to see what eagles might offer too.

All will be revealed but must say

This will be a win win situation whatever he does!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think you're overrating Hogan. And I think the club agrees with me because if he was really a super dooper superstar we wouldn't even entertain the idea of a trade.

My issues with Hogan are:
1. Pace - he's not super quick and so struggles to burn an opponent either on the lead or when the ball is on the ground

2. Leading patterns - repeatedly he gets out of position as a deep forward. Far better leading up the ground, but the way footy is played right now doesn't favour the lead up CHF. Similarly Tom McDonald is excellent in that role

3. Kicking skills - whilst his goal kicking has improved and is very good inside 45m the way he hooks the ball around his body means he struggles for distance and struggles to weight the ball inside 50. If he gets the ball 60m out it often ends with a turnover or dumped kick.

4. Lack of a leap - how often does he take the big pack grabs out reaching opponents - very rarely

5. Defensive effort - it's just not there. He tried much harder this year but it clearly doesn't come naturally to him. Poor tackler and again the lack of speed comes in here

I think Hogan is an excellent player - runs all day, clean hands on both sides of his body, mobile like a midfielder around the packs, kicks his goals at a good rate, but I don't think he's the special kind of player that will get the whole farm in a trade. 

I don't want draft picks for him, I think most are in agreement there, but if the trade is Hogan for May and another best 22 player with upside then I'd do that. May and Ed Langdon is my suggestion.

We're not "entertaining" the idea of a trade. We know he's gone in 12 months so are getting what we can while we can. Besides... the club wasn't considering trading him til he came to us and said he wouldn't sign at any point next year.

1. Hogan's among the quickest KP forward going around. Regularly burned opponents off up the ground with a tank many had spoken of as Riewoldt-like. Don't know what you've been watching. Around the bye his foot flared up and he took a hit to his overall impact. But was still dominant in most games in this area.

2. Fair enough. I saw him run under the ball a bit early this year which I didn't like. His previous three years though, he was superb at leading and doubling back. I'll go with the bulk of the data I've seen in which he's strong in this area. Kicking 40 a year as a kid in a crap side tells you all you need to know about his leading and deep forward credentials.

3. Distance kicking? I'm with you. You love to see a big-time KPF be able to eke out a 55 metre drop punt when absolutely called upon. Maybe wind assisted. Watts was this guy for a while. It'd be tough, but it was within him. Jesse wasn't that guy. But as with all the other myths perpetuated on here by people who want him out of the club because they don't like distractions, Jesse is among the straightest kicks going around for the kids coming through now. His 4 seasons to date... 44.19, 44.33, 20.6, 47.23... for a total of 155.81.... There's nothing wrong with his kicking at goal. When it comes to field kicking, he's genuinely one of the best in the side. His stab kicks are a thing of beauty. Not only that but his decision making and set ups down the ground work great. Going inside fifty, sure, he wasn't as sharp. But then... who was at MFC this year.

4. Pack marks. How often in years 1-3? Regularly and with startlingly effective bodywork. He'd outpoint bigger, older opponents, marks it at its highest point. And close to goal. When he didn't he would clean up 2 defenders leaving spillages for Garlett to work his magic. This year? Certainly since his injury around the bye I don't think I saw him jump at a ball once. Before that, he was down on his pack marking as well. Overall though, he's still a sensational pack mark and pack buster. He doesn't have the sky-scraping ability of Weed, or the strength in the contest of TMac. But then... who does...

5. I don't recruit a Jesse Hogan for the defensive efforts. He gets a few tackles here and there, particularly when given a run in the midfield. But as with Weed (when he's not rucking) and TMac... no-one's asking these guys to get in and under like Olly. In fact if they did you'd be annoyed they're not further forward kicking goals. I buy your point when we're pressing up after a behind... but when we do (and we do it well), Jesse is almost always the man on the mark. His forward pressure is all about applying some corralling, then getting back and offering a big body target.

 

So I can't go with you on any of your points. And am four square against you on a couple of them. But I get your point. I think if you want t o do a breakdown of 5 faults, you can do them for anyone in the league, just about. Including the guy who just won the Brownlow. We don't have to agree though... and I hope you're right. I hope he's just a good ordinary. The stats suggest though that he's absolutely exceptional. The comparison between him and guys like Brown, Riewoldt and others... he's ahead of them. That says it all.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,296]

3 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

Hogan is worth more than LEver, who cost us two first rounders.

So youre spot on.  And we can throw in Dean Kent .

 

Garlett

[DSP 1,488]

Whatever happens in a trade deal, we better get a bloody good deal.

Hogan hasnt even come close to hitting his straps.

Hard ball MFC and nothing less.

[DeeSpencer 26,081]

3 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

We're not "entertaining" the idea of a trade. We know he's gone in 12 months so are getting what we can while we can. Besides... the club wasn't considering trading him til he came to us and said he wouldn't sign at any point next year.

1. Hogan's among the quickest KP forward going around. Regularly burned opponents off up the ground with a tank many had spoken of as Riewoldt-like. Don't know what you've been watching. Around the bye his foot flared up and he took a hit to his overall impact. But was still dominant in most games in this area.

2. Fair enough. I saw him run under the ball a bit early this year which I didn't like. His previous three years though, he was superb at leading and doubling back. I'll go with the bulk of the data I've seen in which he's strong in this area. Kicking 40 a year as a kid in a crap side tells you all you need to know about his leading and deep forward credentials.

3. Distance kicking? I'm with you. You love to see a big-time KPF be able to eke out a 55 metre drop punt when absolutely called upon. Maybe wind assisted. Watts was this guy for a while. It'd be tough, but it was within him. Jesse wasn't that guy. But as with all the other myths perpetuated on here by people who want him out of the club because they don't like distractions, Jesse is among the straightest kicks going around for the kids coming through now. His 4 seasons to date... 44.19, 44.33, 20.6, 47.23... for a total of 155.81.... There's nothing wrong with his kicking at goal. When it comes to field kicking, he's genuinely one of the best in the side. His stab kicks are a thing of beauty. Not only that but his decision making and set ups down the ground work great. Going inside fifty, sure, he wasn't as sharp. But then... who was at MFC this year.

4. Pack marks. How often in years 1-3? Regularly and with startlingly effective bodywork. He'd outpoint bigger, older opponents, marks it at its highest point. And close to goal. When he didn't he would clean up 2 defenders leaving spillages for Garlett to work his magic. This year? Certainly since his injury around the bye I don't think I saw him jump at a ball once. Before that, he was down on his pack marking as well. Overall though, he's still a sensational pack mark and pack buster. He doesn't have the sky-scraping ability of Weed, or the strength in the contest of TMac. But then... who does...

5. I don't recruit a Jesse Hogan for the defensive efforts. He gets a few tackles here and there, particularly when given a run in the midfield. But as with Weed (when he's not rucking) and TMac... no-one's asking these guys to get in and under like Olly. In fact if they did you'd be annoyed they're not further forward kicking goals. I buy your point when we're pressing up after a behind... but when we do (and we do it well), Jesse is almost always the man on the mark. His forward pressure is all about applying some corralling, then getting back and offering a big body target.

 

So I can't go with you on any of your points. And am four square against you on a couple of them. But I get your point. I think if you want t o do a breakdown of 5 faults, you can do them for anyone in the league, just about. Including the guy who just won the Brownlow. We don't have to agree though... and I hope you're right. I hope he's just a good ordinary. The stats suggest though that he's absolutely exceptional. The comparison between him and guys like Brown, Riewoldt and others... he's ahead of them. That says it all.

1. His tank is great, on a long lead that's fine but I don't see him get space on a short lead or sprint away from opponents when the ball hits the ground. Often he'll gather the ball and try to turn back away from goal rather than take them on.  I don't know exactly how Hoges would go in a 20m or 40m sprint but I think most gun key forwards would have him covered.

2. This one is the most glaring. I'm surprised you don't see it. He never connects with the midfielders when deep forward. I know our mids burn the ball but good forwards make it easy for them. Hogan is often just pleading for a long bombed kick.

3. Willing to agree to disagree but the way he kicks the ball so across his body means he only has a stab kick, no variation, he'll never be able to weight the ball over a defender

4. One on one body work he's great. But in terms of actually leaping at a pack mark I haven't seen it since year 1 or 2. I'm not sure if it's a lack of confidence in his knees or back or a lack of explosiveness but he's a wrestler not a leaper. McDonald and Weideman are both far better at really jumping for the ball. 

5. Josh Kennedy defends, J Riewoldt defends, when he's fit and healthy Buddy defends. It's not the be all and end all but it's a knock. Tommy McDonald's ankles don't work so he doesn't do a great job of it and Melksham likes to stand and watch. It's easy to get to a critical mass of forwards who don't launch in and lay tackles if Hogan is in that group as well.

Ben Brown is a more limited footballer than Hogan but he's exceptional and at leading, marking and being a big bugger. Jack Riewoldt is the best and most well rounded forward in the game, if the stats don't show that then chuck them out.

Fair point about Tom Mitchell but he is the games best ball winner, that's his remarkable skill to go with doing enough in other areas. I don't know if Hogan's best traits are truly exceptional.

[MurDoc516 1,529]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-news-threeway-trade-discussions-begin-to-send-lachie-neale-to-brisbane-picks-to-port-adelaide-and-fremantle/news-story/50aa9995716b2deb3cc588af146fcce2

tldr; Freo will give Neale to Brisbane while Brisbane give pick 4 to Port then Port give pick 9 and 10 to freo which is expected to be used for potential Hogan deal.

edit: it could be pick 10 and freos current first rd pick while they bank pick 9 

Edited September 25, 2018 by MurDoc516

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

5 minutes ago, MurDoc516 said:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-news-threeway-trade-discussions-begin-to-send-lachie-neale-to-brisbane-picks-to-port-adelaide-and-fremantle/news-story/50aa9995716b2deb3cc588af146fcce2

tldr; Freo will give Neale to Brisbane while Brisbane give pick 4 to Port then Port give pick 9 and 10 to freo which is expected to be used for potential Hogan deal.

edit: it could be pick 10 and freos current first rd pick while they bank pick 9 

In that scenario I’d want pick 6 and 9 but there is a bit of chatter they might also be keen on dean Kent. Not sure if that would be a seperate deal 

[MurDoc516 1,529]

Just now, Patches O’houlihan said:

In that scenario I’d want pick 6 and 9 but there is a bit of chatter they might also be keen on dean Kent. Not sure if that would be a seperate deal 

bit of chat that some 2nd and 3rd round picks will also be traded amongst the clubs. Freo however would likely use a 2nd rd pick to get Lobb

[Diamond_Jim 12,628]

6 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

In that scenario I’d want pick 6 and 9 but there is a bit of chatter they might also be keen on dean Kent. Not sure if that would be a seperate deal 

6 and 9 is a bit light but it's getting there... depends what can be done with 9 player trade wise

I would prefer 4 and 6 or thereabouts

Mind you Redleg thinks we should get 4,6 and Brayshaw .. like his thinking

Edited September 25, 2018 by Diamond_Jim

[Pennant St Dee 13,304]

4 hours ago, rjay said:

@Pennant St Dee, how do you rate Freo's young key defender. Is is Pearce? and is he worth part of the deal?

If the story is correct I would be looking at a player plus...a pick or maybe 2 players.

We're in the so called window and don't need picks at the moment unless we can on trade them for needs.

 

4 hours ago, McQueen said:

Isn't Jason Taylor on record as being very keen on young Ed Langdon? He's a small defender though...

Pearce is another Omac.

Pearce is better than Omac going to be a good defender.

Contrary to others I believe this story has some legs well at least the club is asking questions.

The club has been in dialogue with Jesse's management for quite some time planning for beyond 2019.  That I know but I have no information on any outcomes or any idea what Jesse's plans are

 

 

[qwerty7 326]

It was said On the Couch tonight that basically there has been some sort of shift in the Hogan trade talk within the last few days - it seems that they are not as definitive about him staying now. However, the trade is not being driven by the club at all, they want him to stay; it is either being driven by Freo or Hogan.

The case, IMO, is that Freo are driving it and have proposed something quite tempting to Hogan’s management. Perhaps Hogan’s management are using the talk to up Melbourne’s offer that they will no doubt begin discussing with him as part of probably a long term contract extension. This last paragraph is just my opinion though, no sources.

I think he will resign on long term extension, but if not, we should play hard ball and accept nothing less than two first round draft picks.

Edited September 25, 2018 by qwerty7

[jnrmac 20,185]

It's all click bait. Stop feeding it.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,296]

3 hours ago, MurDoc516 said:

I'm sorry but i'll lose serious faith in the club if we trade him for one [censored] first round pick. We paid two to get him and we should demand two high picks in return. I'm happy to get one pick now and one in the future to help us secure any future deals, but i'd spit chips if we gave him up for one first rounder. His stats for his age are on par with Josh Kennedy ffs.

The way i see it is we are getting two first rounders and one of them will go to the suns for May. What we do with the other pick is anyone's guess. I'd like to make a play for Sam Walsh but he's like a no.1 pick. The King brothers are the high prospect talls in the draft. 

We didn't exactly trade two first rounders for him, we trade 3 & 14 and got back pick 20 and Dom Barry as well as the minidraft pick for Hogan. So we traded pick 3 and a 6 pick downgrade from 14 to 20 (can exclude Dom Barry if you want).

[RedLegs23 940]

1 hour ago, wheaters31 said:

Hogan for Pick 5 and Langdon

I know im stating the obvious here, but you have got to be taking the [censored] with this!