Farewell Jack Watts

[Redleg 40,945]

54 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

When Jack’s visiting these clubs for the tour I wonder what he says in response to the inevitable question, “Why are the MFC moving you on? And what are you going to do to address these areas/concerns?”...

Same as he is saying now in the press to stay " I will work harder".

[Redleg 40,945]

8 minutes ago, sue said:

It seems Watts only.

Tell that to JT, Grimes, Spencer, Kennedy, Hulett, White and every other player we have traded or delisted in the last few years.

[Lucifers Hero 39,881]

3 hours ago, AllMyTeamsAreWank said:

Inside word I have lines up with most of what is written here. 

Got injured and requested a trip to Byron instead of focusing on rehab. Apparently this has majorly [censored] off the club. This was coming from a Storm player. 

 

26 minutes ago, GCDee said:

They approved it?!? Sorry judging by the post the club got mad and told him to GAGF.

Then yes I'm mad at the FD 

I assume you are referring to AMTAW's post above?  The source was a Melbourne Storm player.  How would a Storm player know what was happening inside MFC?  From a Melbourne player; a Melbourne coach?  So it is at least 3rd or 4th hand.

And, AMTAW did not say whether MFC approved it or not; he only said that MFC were not impressed with the request.

I raise these points because otherwise in 3 pages it will become a 'truth' to be quoted  over and over again.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[spirit of norm smith 16,468]

1 hour ago, binman said:

I listened to the Roos interview on deetales last night. Brilliant interview. One of the best and most expansive interview i have heard with anyone directly involved with the dees. Roos is relaxed and remarkably open, in a way i suggest is unlikely in a normal media gig.  I recommend  giving it a listen if interested in the last few years at the dees

As has been noted in this thread he touches on Watts (from 5.23 min), but that is only a very small part of what of what is a very wide ranging discussion. That said Roos addresses many of the issues raised in this thread by posters on both sides of the argument.

To be transparent in my position i agree with most of what Roosy says, with one exception. I''m not sure if its a mistake to trade him or not in so far as i fully respect Goodwin's right to make the call and i don't know what the basis is for the decision (Roos acknowledges the same thing). If Goody and the FD decide it is the right decision then that is good enough for me. That doesn't mean i agree with it,  have to like it or that i won't be upset to lose Watts. But it is Goody's team and as someone pointed out the club is privy to data and other information (eg how well or otherwise jack approached his rehab or off season) that we - and Roos - are not.  Also Jack may simply not fit Goody's game plan or type of player he wants (eg not intense enough).

All that said, in light of the debate that is raging here on DL i did find Roosy's comments fascinating given who he is and how well he knows our team. Here are some selected quotes on three of the questions and issues that have been covered in this thread:

Are you a Watts fan

'i'm a huge Watts fan'

'an outstanding player' 

'a very, very good player'

'he elevated his game, certainly in my last year'

'an elite kick, an elite decision maker

'i'm a massive Jack Watts fan'

'he's got weakness and some of them are his responsibility to address' 

'i would take Jack Watts over Jake stringer every day of the week' (this was in the context of what roos said was the unfair criticism of jack compared to a player like Stringer who has been dropped multiple times over the last 2 years, and who by the by some people are saying is worth a high first round draft pick)

'the perception of jack Watts is just crazy .......its completely unrealistic'

Are they doing the right thing to trade him?

'i'd be disappointed personally but i don't know whats going on'

'i think its a big mistake to trade him but i don't know, i'm only basing that on what i saw last year and this year'

'you need a mix of players to play in your premiership'

Roos finished the discussion on Watts with this unequivocal comment: 'i think it would be a mistake to get rid of him'

Does he impact games enough

'the sort of player that wins you games, certainly in the last two years'

'he has won 6-8 games in the last two years, unquestionably'

'the sort of player every team needs'

'if i was another club and Melbourne rang me and said would you like Jack Watts i couldn't hold of him quick enough' 

'i know there was some criticism of him this year but the games i saw him play he impacted'

 

 

Yes absolutely.  Roos was always one to respect the club and achieve through the footy club ethos.  You need all types. Hard workers. Match winners. Skilled. Tough.  Class.  Sheer determination. Manage both on and off field. He was spot on in his comments.  I am sure he probably still knows what’s going on. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

will we make the ton before the sun sets today?

[russianred 3]

10 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

Relax GCDee.

I assume you are referring to AMTAW's post above?  The source was a Melbourne Storm player.  How would a Storm player know what was happening inside MFC?  From a Melbourne player; a Melbourne coach?  So it is at least 3rd or 4th hand.

And, AMTAW did not say whether MFC approved it or not; he only said that MFC were not impressed with the request.

I raise these points because otherwise in 3 pages it will become a 'truth' to be quoted  over and over again.

Totally possibly. 

Storm and MFC share a working space. They have a significant amount of contact with each other as a result of this. 

[DSP 1,488]

12 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

I assume you are referring to AMTAW's post above?  The source was a Melbourne Storm player.  How would a Storm player know what was happening inside MFC?  From a Melbourne player; a Melbourne coach?  So it is at least 3rd or 4th hand.

And, AMTAW did not say whether MFC approved it or not; he only said that MFC were not impressed with the request.

I raise these points because otherwise in 3 pages it will become a 'truth' to be quoted  over and over again.

 

They literally are next door neighbours. Of course they would talk to each other.

 

[sue 9,107]

22 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Tell that to JT, Grimes, Spencer, Kennedy, Hulett, White and every other player we have traded or delisted in the last few years.

Come on RL. I was obviously referring to the current team and the focus here on Watts.  The reference was to the comment "At some stage these blokes need to get over themselves and step into the real world. Watts included."

The use of the phrase 'Watts included' struck me as ironic since the discussion has been more like Watts 'exclusively'. 

And yes, I know why Watts is the current centre of attention.

[Redleg 40,945]

1 minute ago, sue said:

Come on RL. I was obviously referring to the current team and the focus here on Watts.  The reference was to the comment "At some stage these blokes need to get over themselves and step into the real world. Watts included."

The use of the phrase 'Watts included' struck me as ironic since the discussion has been more like Watts 'exclusively'. 

And yes, I know why Watts is the current centre of attention.

Sorry Sue misunderstood your point.

However as you know the reason why the discussion is basically Watts exclusively is because he is the one  that looks like being moved on and to be honest not many others on the list fit the criteria:" Poor attitude, poor effort at the contest and basically don't give a stuff".

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,751]

If he does look to go to Geelong I would be enquiring on Darcy Lang.

Will only be 22 and a former top 15 pick. We need more small forward depth and he could add to that. Averaged 5.4 tackles a game this season which is solid and if he got a good run without injury could compliment our talls.

I'd be expecting a bit of a pick upgrade if it was Watts for Lang though.

[Lucifers Hero 39,881]

9 minutes ago, DSP said:

 

They literally are next door neighbours. Of course they would talk to each other.

I know they are next door neighbours. 

I ask again how would a Storm player know what is happening inside mfc?  From an mfc coach, player, staff member (junior?/senior), another Storm player, coach who got it from someone inside the mfc? 

The Storm source is passing on hearsay, not fact. 

But if you want to believe it thats cool, I just hope other DL's are a bit more circumspect about 3rd or 4th hand hearsay.  There are enough things to hang Jack on as it is.

[worldwideweb_demon 90]

Just to add my 2 cents worth. I'm probably okay with moving on Watts if we achieved a good trade in return but I highly doubt we could get anything in return from another club that makes it a win for us.

Do all footballers put in 100% all the time? I doubt it and It's been mentioned before that certain footballers who were really talented were always given some leeway. I remember listening to the OX on the radio and he mentioned that during his time, certain players' skinfolds were not published (probably cause it exceeded the required standard). Even this year, Daniel Wells came back unfit.

From my personal experience, talented guys in any field of life often tend to be the laziest. They never had to work hard to achieve a certain level of success. MFC have had our fair share with guys like Jakovic and Sylvia. If they worked their butts off, they would have been superstars of the competition. 

Will a guy like Watts likely to put in 100% in the future? He might lift is effort a notch now that he's been crucified by the club but I doubt he would put in that 100%. He's never needed to. His 70%, 80% is good enough to fit into any side in the AFL. Problem we have is that the club and many supporters can't stand this being good enough and we only want guys that will bleed for the club.

In my opinion, 80% of Watts is still better than a lot of the fringe players on the list. We expect him to be one of our best players but he is not. I would rather keep him and play him in the 2s whenever he doesn't perform. His downfall has always been his expectation.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

10 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

If he does look to go to Geelong I would be enquiring on Darcy Lang.

Hopefully not to play football for Melbourne.

[McQueen 17,865]

1 hour ago, praha said:

This seems like as big a test of character for Watts as he's faced. The club has essentially said he can stay so long as he commits to what is expected of him and raises standards. Or he can leave. 

To me, leaving shapes as being almost vindication of Melbourne's concerns. And I think we'll be better off if he leaves. If he stays, he has 2 seasons to save his AFL career.

Wonderfully concise, Praha.

[pineapple dee 2,892]

16 minutes ago, worldwideweb_demon said:

Just to add my 2 cents worth. I'm probably okay with moving on Watts if we achieved a good trade in return but I highly doubt we could get anything in return from another club that makes it a win for us.

Do all footballers put in 100% all the time? I doubt it and It's been mentioned before that certain footballers who were really talented were always given some leeway. I remember listening to the OX on the radio and he mentioned that during his time, certain players' skinfolds were not published (probably cause it exceeded the required standard). Even this year, Daniel Wells came back unfit.

From my personal experience, talented guys in any field of life often tend to be the laziest. They never had to work hard to achieve a certain level of success. MFC have had our fair share with guys like Jakovic and Sylvia. If they worked their butts off, they would have been superstars of the competition. 

Will a guy like Watts likely to put in 100% in the future? He might lift is effort a notch now that he's been crucified by the club but I doubt he would put in that 100%. He's never needed to. His 70%, 80% is good enough to fit into any side in the AFL. Problem we have is that the club and many supporters can't stand this being good enough and we only want guys that will bleed for the club.

In my opinion, 80% of Watts is still better than a lot of the fringe players on the list. We expect him to be one of our best players but he is not. I would rather keep him and play him in the 2s whenever he doesn't perform. His downfall has always been his expectation.

With respect to Jacovich, I believe his career was curtailed by back issues rather than laziness.

[sue 9,107]

26 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Sorry Sue misunderstood your point.

However as you know the reason why the discussion is basically Watts exclusively is because he is the one  that looks like being moved on and to be honest not many others on the list fit the criteria:" Poor attitude, poor effort at the contest and basically don't give a stuff".

Agree, though you might add to your list of attributes "good kick and decision maker'  Sad that.

[DSP 1,488]

24 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I know they are next door neighbours. 

I ask again how would a Storm player know what is happening inside mfc?  From an mfc coach, player, staff member (junior?/senior), another Storm player, coach who got it from someone inside the mfc? 

The Storm source is passing on hearsay, not fact. 

But if you want to believe it thats cool, I just hope other DL's are a bit more circumspect about 3rd or 4th hand hearsay.  There are enough things to hang Jack on as it is.

I didnt say I believe it. Far from it. i simply said that there is an absolute possibility that either a player or someone from MFC talking to a Storm player.

[sue 9,107]

Looks like Dangerfield is more positive about Watts:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-06/dangerfield-cats-would-welcome-watts

[Dr. Gonzo 24,226]

2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

What's subjective?

You think it's a good move by the club, who wants to move him on, to open up all his limitations in a public forum?

Sounds dumb and poorly handled to me

I thought it was pretty obvious the part I had bolded was subjective.

What do you expect the club to say? "We think Jack is a fantastic clubman, a dedicated trainer and footballer and we will be sad to see him go" - questions will obviously then come back as to why we are trading him with 2 years left on his contract.

The other clubs aren't dumb, they'll already know the stuff that is now in the public domain - it's their job to know.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,226]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Agree. By the same token - and along the same lines as him being subtle - i did wonder if there was a subtle criticism of how Goody has handled watts this year with his comments on the need not to focus on player's weaknesses.

I found another comment really fascinating. He talked about the critical element of being a senior coach, as opposed to an assistant coach, is that you have to be a leader. He said there was senior coach who had been an assistant coach who he felt had not made the transition and become a leader. He said he wouldn't name the coach. Surely not Goodwin but then who (nb he seems to imply it is a current coach)? 

Only one I could think of was Buckley? Maybe Richardson or Leon Cameron?

[McQueen 17,865]

15 minutes ago, sue said:

Looks like Dangerfield is more positive about Watts:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-06/dangerfield-cats-would-welcome-watts

He praises one element of his game. The one that almost everyone here agrees with.

Dangerfield hasn't seen enough of his preparation or competitiveness to pass judgement but Goodwin and the LG certainly have.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,226]

17 minutes ago, sue said:

Looks like Dangerfield is more positive about Watts:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-06/dangerfield-cats-would-welcome-watts

What, you mean the guy who doesn't know Watts from a bar of soap?

[DeeSpencer 25,718]

28 minutes ago, worldwideweb_demon said:

Just to add my 2 cents worth. I'm probably okay with moving on Watts if we achieved a good trade in return but I highly doubt we could get anything in return from another club that makes it a win for us.

Do all footballers put in 100% all the time? I doubt it and It's been mentioned before that certain footballers who were really talented were always given some leeway. I remember listening to the OX on the radio and he mentioned that during his time, certain players' skinfolds were not published (probably cause it exceeded the required standard). Even this year, Daniel Wells came back unfit.

From my personal experience, talented guys in any field of life often tend to be the laziest. They never had to work hard to achieve a certain level of success. MFC have had our fair share with guys like Jakovic and Sylvia. If they worked their butts off, they would have been superstars of the competition. 

Will a guy like Watts likely to put in 100% in the future? He might lift is effort a notch now that he's been crucified by the club but I doubt he would put in that 100%. He's never needed to. His 70%, 80% is good enough to fit into any side in the AFL. Problem we have is that the club and many supporters can't stand this being good enough and we only want guys that will bleed for the club.

In my opinion, 80% of Watts is still better than a lot of the fringe players on the list. We expect him to be one of our best players but he is not. I would rather keep him and play him in the 2s whenever he doesn't perform. His downfall has always been his expectation.

That's why he has to go. You can't have senior players who are so inconsistent through seasons that they deserve to be or have to be dropped. Building a side usually takes multiple years of guys playing together regularly and adding to that. Also the reality is you can't just drop Watts at the MFC. He's too high profile these days and missed that development time. It makes a story every time he's dropped. At a new club he could fight to earn his spot in a much fairer way.

Also we'll get a decent pick for Watts and either back JT to find us a player better than a fringe player or possibly on trade a mid 2nd rounder and the spare Watts cash for a Hibberd (or possibly a Melksham) and get a more consistent hardened player without the weight of expectation.

[rpfc 28,489]

1 hour ago, praha said:

This seems like as big a test of character for Watts as he's faced. The club has essentially said he can stay so long as he commits to what is expected of him and raises standards. Or he can leave. 

To me, leaving shapes as being almost vindication of Melbourne's concerns. And I think we'll be better off if he leaves. If he stays, he has 2 seasons to save his AFL career.

I think it is safe to say the club would like him to go. Watts is obviously being encouraged to find a suitable home and that club will give us a deal we can swallow.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,226]

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Yes absolutely.  Roos was always one to respect the club and achieve through the footy club ethos.  You need all types. Hard workers. Match winners. Skilled. Tough.  Class.  Sheer determination. Manage both on and off field. He was spot on in his comments.  I am sure he probably still knows what’s going on. 

"Hard workers" is a non-negotiable. Just because someone is "skilled", has "class" or is a "matchwinner" they're allowed to bludge and not work as hard as others? Double standards creates a horrible culture and sets a poor example for the rest of the team.