Farewell Jack Watts

[The Sailing Demon 379]

1 hour ago, Smokey said:

Well said pusser, love it

Your name must be Alex?

You'd be 100% correct haha. this isnt my good friend Steven is it?

[Smokey 4,205]

Just now, The Sailing Demon said:

You'd be 100% correct haha. this isnt my good friend Steven is it?

Yeah man haha <3

[Sir Why You Little 35,196]

7 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

No. Denham said Connors won't let Watts go back to Melbourne. Was purely an opinion with no input from Connors

Correct

[Cheap Seats 3,303]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://www.sen.com.au/podcasts/dee-tales/

You can stream from there or download from the Dee Tales podcast feed. I recommend everyone give the WHOLE interview a listen

Cheers mate 

Appreciated 

[jumbo returns 6,598]

So.......has he gone yet?

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's crazy, you would think the coaches had some kind of vendetta against him the way people are carrying on. How about some accountability on jacks part? How about treating the club and your teammates with respect by doing "whatever it takes" to get the results we crave. Being "nice" doesn't always make up for disrespecting your club through lack of preparation, application etc 

I agree. Some of the arguments have ventured towards making it sound like they think the coaches have a vendetta against Jack. I've possibly ventured down that line too. In the clear light of day I would be very surprised if the coaches had a vendetta against Watts.

I guess I've ended up going down that path is because, personally, I'm not sure I trust McCartney and I'm not sure what influence he is having. He's been proven to cause disharmony at another club to the extent that players (not just 1 player) threatened to leave if he wasn't got rid of. And yes he was supposedly 'great' at Geelong (under an experienced coach) but I'm not sure a leopard can change it's spots.

What caused me to get on and say something on this topic in the first place (and probably said too much and spent too long hanging around here) is what I consider to be the appalling manner in which the coaches/club/FD have handled the situation. In particular, the continuing change in the explanation they have offered up. The changes in their 'stories' are making me incredibly suspicious because changing your story is the number one indicator that your telling porkies! Maybe they just haven't explained it properly. Mahoney yesterday gave me a little comfort but too little too late to remove my feeling of suspicion.

The coaches/club/FD are the ones that set the culture - not just playing standards. Culture includes, honesty, integrity, supporting each other, not airing issues they have with a player in public in the manner they have (compare it to the way the Bulldogs have handled Stringer). Particularly when the player is:

1. the most scrutinized player in the AFL (and probably ever in the AFL) as a result of the clubs previous actions/handling of him

2. extremely popular among the playing group

3. polarises the supporter group between effusive love and extreme dislike (almost said 'hate' - but it's a word I don't like. I hope there isn't 'hate' but some Demonlanders come way too close to expressing hate for my liking)

If the way they have handled this is an indication of how they plan to handle matters going forward then I am extremely worried and keep on having flashbacks to the good old days. Thank you Mr Neeld!!

But, having said all that it's AFL. And it's life. Not everything is handled the way I would like it to be and things don't always work out the way I want them too. So I suck it up.

There's something called perspective. As long as my daughter wakes every morning and is healthy and smiling I don't give a rats what happens in my life.

Edited October 5, 2017 by ChewyOnMyBoot

[chook fowler 18,464]

Sick of this whole saga. It just needs to get resolved one way or another asap. Don't really care which way it goes.

[Sir Why You Little 35,196]

1 minute ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

I agree. Some of the arguments have ventured towards making it sound like they think the coaches have a vendetta against Jack. I've possibly ventured down that line too. In the clear light of day I would be very surprised if the coaches had a vendetta against Watts.

What caused me to get on and say something on this topic in the first place (and probably said too much and spent too long hanging around here) is what I consider to be the appalling manner in which the coaches/club/FD have handled the situation. In particular, the continuing change in the explanation they have offered up. The changes in their 'stories' are making me incredibly suspicious because changing your story is the number one indicator that your telling porkies! Maybe they just haven't explained it properly. Mahoney yesterday gave me a little comfort but too little too late for me.

The coaches/club/FD are the ones that set the culture - not just playing standards. Culture includes, honesty, integrity, supporting each other, not airing issues they have with a player in public in the manner they have (compare it to the way the Bulldogs have handled Stringer). Particularly when the player is:

1. the most scrutinized player in the AFL (and probably ever in the AFL) as a result of the clubs previous actions/handling of him

2. extremely popular among the playing group

3. polarises the supporter group between effusive love and extreme dislike (almost said 'hate' - but it's a word I don't like. I hope there isn't 'hate' but some Demonlanders come way too close to expressing hate for my liking)

If the way they have handled this is an indication of how they plan to handle matters going forward then I am extremely worried and keep on having flashbacks to the good old days. Thank you Mr Neeld!!

I guess also, personally, I'm not sure I trust McCartney and I'm not sure what influence he is having. He's been proven to cause disharmony at another club to the extent that players (not just 1 player) threatened to leave if he wasn't got rid of. And yes he was supposedly 'great' at Geelong (under an experienced coach) but I'm not sure a leopard can change it's spots.

But, having said all that it's AFL. And it's life. Not everything is handled the way I would like it to be and things don't always work out the way I want them too. So I suck it up.

There's something called perspective. As long as my daughter wakes every morning and is healthy and smiling I don't give a rats what happens in my life.

I don’t see how else it could be handled in this Social Media Climate we now live. 

There is no way all this could be kept behind closed doors, too many factors involved, plus secrecy only increases tension. 

It was always going to get messy, but once a decision is made either way, within 24 hours it will be forgotten. 

There is no lingering residue, this stuff happens every trade week period. 

The club have given JW an ultimatuum, it is up to him how he interperets it

The Club is not stained at all. 

The only stain is that we missed finals 2 years running when we had a realistic chance. 

[Redleg 38,195]

53 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

Driving to a meeting and caught last bit of KB and Venom Denham. Denham stated Paul Connors (Watts manager) has said Watts won't be at Melb next year. 

Well then it sounds like they ( JW and Connors) believe he is better off for the future at another club. 

He has not been dumped as Jack said in his media statements, but told to explore his options and he further said he might yet stay. Obviously staying meant a changed performance and attitude and maybe Jack has decided in all the circumstances that a move is the preferred option. That is his choice as he has a contact that we have to honour, financially at least. 

Maybe he saw himself at Casey and doesn't like it.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Redleg

[The Sailing Demon 379]

19 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

You missed accelerate (double l in the original) but otherwise nice work SD. I always like to see toe the line corrected, and as for people resorting to the German language when there is a perfectly fine English option - anguish - it simply defies logic.

So spot on SD, but I would still give Sailing Demon a solid pass for mostly clean copy, apart from the odd literal blue, and also commend the Sailor for a thoughtful analysis from one of JW's generation.

Now to you, Sailor, can you share with us your initial reaction when confronted by your coach/boss? Was your epiphany instantaneous or did you need to digest the criticism before you could wear it? (It seems Jack still has some way to travel on that journey.)

I have had a few of these situations throughout my career where I was told to TOW the line.
As a younger guy I sulked, and approached it with immaturity and shut off for days.
But as I have grown up I have come to appreciate the patience that was held with me because ultimatley that patience helped me to become who I am not only as a professional but as a person.
I am not perfect, my general loquatious nature means that I can tread on toes every now and then and say things I perhaps shouldn't. I know that when I am pulled aside and given a roasting (professionally) that it is because they see my potential and want me to reach it.
As a manager of people very similar to my younger self now I take more pleasure in helping the kids like me grow as opposed to just letting them go off track and eventually let the system kick them out.
HOWEVER in some cases, there are people that can't be helped and no matter how many angles taken by different people, they just arent the right fit for the job.

[Willmoy1947 3,825]

There are obviously posters, young as they seem, to have discord in their hearts these last few days. 

They are trying to do possible harm to the harmony and good place we are in at the moment....go away......

[jumbo returns 6,598]

3 minutes ago, willmoy said:

There are obviously posters, young as they seem, to have discord in their hearts these last few days. 

They are trying to do possible harm to the harmony and good place we are in at the moment....go away......

School holidays

[chook fowler 18,464]

1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

School holidays

dysfunctioning frontal lobes

Edited October 5, 2017 by chook fowler

[DaveyDee 421]

13 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Well then it sounds like they ( JW and Connors) believe he is better off for the future at another club. 

He has not been dumped as Jack said in his media statements, but told to explore his options and he further said he might yet stay. Obviously staying meant a changed performance and attitude and maybe Jack has decided in all the circumstances that a move is the preferred option. That is his choice as he has a contact that we have to honour, financially at least. 

Maybe he saw himself at Casey and doesn't like it.

or maybe he is in a rut - and doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result is not working for him or the club. 

Maybe, he just needs somebody who is prepared to break the cycle, give him honest upfront feedback show some leadership and be prepared to make the hard decisions. 

Goody has played the game, he is a smart operator - he has a game plan and everybody needs to work their butts off both on & off the field to achieve the ultimate success. 

Just a thought. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by DaveyDee

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He had a career year in 2016 (not a "great" year but a good year nonetheless)

Signs a 3 year contract

Comes back in less than ideal condition after being content with his 2016 performance 

Makes amends after copping public criticism about his preparedness

Has a decent 2017 recapturing his form of 2016

Gets injured

A 2 week injury takes 4 weeks to return to senior footy due to his lack of preparation 

On return from injury he stinks it up against Port dropping chest marks, fumbling easy balls and having 9 disposals (the fewest for the MFC on the day)

He has a couple more poor efforts notabky against North in Tas

He gets dropped to Casey and returns for the final H&A game against the Pies where he is allegedly one of our better players (I haven't seen most of this game so can't comment)

That timeline seems pretty self explanatory and that's only the last 12 months - obviously the coaches/FD thought he'd turned the corner and then cracked it when he returned to preseason training last year. There's plenty of anecdotes about him liking the footy lifestyle, going out for beers 3 or 4 times a week etc. The coaches don't want guys like Petracca, Oliver, Hogan etc falling in to those bad habits, they want them to follow the lead of Viney and Jones who push themselves to the limit to get the best out of themselves.

Seriously, do people think Goodwin et al are gonna cut off their nose to spite their face just because of a perceived personality clash? Here's a novel idea maybe Watts actually has had a role to play in this and he's not just the innocent victim of a bastard coach. If Goodwin thought Watts would contribute to our rise up the ladder and our push for a flag don't you think he'd keep him around? Or do you honestly think hes that stupid that he would push him out just because he doesn't like him selling board shorts to hipsters?

 

Hahahahaha. So sad how quickly the above post has gotten so many likes. A post like that actually makes me angry because it's one that some people will just believe without questioning anything. And it's character assassination at it's best. I had deduced from your previous posts Mr Gonzo that you had a considerable dislike for Jack (would be interested to know where it comes from) but this has just take the cake!!

So many unsubstantiated statements that it's not really worth bothering. But one of them I just have to tackle...........'going out for beers 3 or 4 times a week, etc.'.

Are you meaning during the season or post season? If he does it post season then I'm not sure what the problem is. If you are meaning that he does this during the season then, tell me you don't really mean this. And if you do, can you please present some facts to support it.

With the spotlight having been on Jack all his career and the media all too willing to have him in the papers, you surely can't believe that he could possibly have managed to go 'out for beers 3 or 4 times a week, etc.'. without ever having been 'caught'.

And then you claim that it is those bad habits that "The coaches don't want guys like Petracca, Oliver, Hogan etc falling in to" as if what you have claimed is fact. And as if that is what the club is referring to re the influence Jack is having. Really!!!!????

Having said the above I do agree with your comment that "Watts actually has had a role to play in this and he's not just the innocent victim of a bastard coach".

Edited October 5, 2017 by ChewyOnMyBoot

[Older demon 2,260]

It just occured to me that the ultimate irony would be if Jack leaves, that MFC has to pay part of his remaining 2 year contract. I know other clubs pick up part of a contract when they take a contracted player and I could not see a club that Jack chooses agreeing to pay him in full.

So picture the scenario with Jack turning it on at another club and we are funding it or better still he waits till playing us to play a blinder and we are funding it. 

I repeat my earlier statement MFC have handled this badly and amateurishly.

[hardtack 10,186]

2 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Spelling isn't the only thing Skin Diamond Deeamond learnt at school. (Do a google search to see!)

 

Although I can't work what kind of school it must have been. Finishing school, maybe.

If Skin had been a Doggies supporter, he could have gone with Raylin Jong... what a lost opportunity! 

(Alternatively, he could be a Minecraft nerd? - Deamond Skin)

[binman 39,221]

Say what you like about jack but he sure does generate pages on DL

[DaveyDee 421]

18 minutes ago, Older demon said:

I repeat my earlier statement MFC have handled this badly and amateurishly.

In your opinion. I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Can I suggest we might need to wait until this whole saga plays itself thru - maybe that might take 3-5 years? 

In theory if we say traded him for pick 57 and got another Jayden Hunt - would you change you opinion? or we traded him for pick 1 and got another Josh Fraser 

Either way dont we have to wait till everything washes its self thru? 

Edited October 5, 2017 by DaveyDee

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

11 hours ago, Dr.D said:

ok admittedly im not a jack watts fan. he has infuriated me from the start with his soft football and to be honest I'm a bit surprised that people aren't glad for the trade.

I acknowledge that it maybe couldve been handled a bit better but at the end of the day goodwin doesnt want watts in the team and blind freddy can see its because he plays weak footy.  Its not jacks fault, he just doesnt have that killer instinct to tackle or chase with ferocity. you can't teach that and why does everyone go mute when we talk about this issue. 

if we make finals next year i'd trust watts to kick straight but i would never trust him to put his head over the footy or back into packs etc. his efforts in the phyical department are up there with cale morton

Well said Dr D.

I'm on the fence re Jack but what I do like to read is calm, reasoned opinion - with all the emotion removed - that doesn't assassinate a character. And in your above post that's exactly what you've done. Cheers!!

I can totally understand people not being a Jack fan for the reasons you say.

 

[Wilson7 2,537]

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

His premierships were in his first 2 years at the crows and his captaincy started 10 years later.  So it could not be said that he was a leader of a successful team.  Also, many excellent and decorated players are appointed to leadership positions eg captains that aren't good leaders; look no further than our beloved Demons.

Individual success + Captaincy do not = Good Leadership

When given the opportunity to show leadership he didn't:

1. At the age of 30 and about to be appointed Captain at the Crows he was taken to task by the AFL for gambling on an AFL game.  After being appointed captain he had treatment for a long standing gambling addiction.  

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him.

2.  At the age of 32 he was Ass Coach of a club that implemented an unprecedented doping regime over an extended period of time.  He was not cited, probably because WADA rules didn't extend to support staff. 

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him and relied on him amongst others to look after their well being.

He was a very successful player, average as captain, failed as an asst coach, average as first year senior coach and I can find no evidence that he is a good leader of any sort let alone a natural leader or a successful leader.

So hopefully people will stop talking about his leadership skills.

Many Adelaide players say he was a terrific onfield leader. But yeah, don't let your distain for Goodwin get in the way of the truth.

Edited October 5, 2017 by DavidNeitz9
spelling

[DeeZee 6,889]

The latest is that he is going to Collingwood for a pick upgrade Of 10 to 6

[FarNorthernD 5,848]

Aside from Jack’s preparation and physicality issues there is probably another reason the Club would like to see him depart. Now that another tall in Lever coming on board the Club has less need for Jack. With a lot of clubs going the way of two talls in the forward half and lots smalls providing forward pressure it is hard to see where he fits. T Mc, Hogan, Weed, Pedo and possibly O Mc can all be tall fwd options. Get rid of Jack and you can then draft/trade a small. 

The Club can push Jack out and claim it is down to his attitude but I suspect there is a bit of list management in play too. 

[danielE288 680]

Agree with above poster.

[Gator 16,921]

46 minutes ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

I agree. Some of the arguments have ventured towards making it sound like they think the coaches have a vendetta against Jack. I've possibly ventured down that line too. In the clear light of day I would be very surprised if the coaches had a vendetta against Watts.

I guess I've ended up going down that path is because, personally, I'm not sure I trust McCartney and I'm not sure what influence he is having. He's been proven to cause disharmony at another club to the extent that players (not just 1 player) threatened to leave if he wasn't got rid of. And yes he was supposedly 'great' at Geelong (under an experienced coach) but I'm not sure a leopard can change it's spots.

I only read the first part of your post, but I can also point out that McCartney was highly regarded at Essendon, where he was an assistant coach in 2011.  That's 12 years as an assistant at two other clubs where his reputation was impeccable.  He's also apparently highly regarded at Melbourne and specifically by Goodwin.  Having been to a supporters forum once where he was the star attraction I found him very impressive.

Could it be that he did the hard yards at the Bulldogs that helped set up Beveridge's success ?  If only a small part ?

Could it be with what we're now seeing with Stringer and others such as Liberatore, that there was a core group at the Dogs with an unhealthy influence over aspects of their behaviour, or disenfranchisement with McCartney ?  Who knows.

We do know that Peter Gordon is an autocrat who gets rid of people in the blink of an eye.  A friend of mine is on the Board and Gordon is very much a control person.  He may have blinked too soon with Macca, although I recognise it's hard to push that line considering they won a flag.  We'll never know what McCartney may have been able to achieve.

Tumultuous leadership claims another CEO at Western Bulldogs

"The tumultuous leadership of Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon has appeared to have claimed another scalp with the club appointing a third chief executive since Gordon resumed the head role at the club in 2013."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/tumultuous-leadership-claims-another-ceo-at-western-bulldogs/news-story/6877e52188f29828fbb5c06e9f25b75a

 

I believe we're in excellent hands with Goodwin, et al.  Will he be a better coach and media performer in year two or five than year one ?  One would think so.

Do some emotional supporters make silly conclusions from afar ?  Absolutely.