Three identifiable problems

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

2 - Vocation Vs lifestyle. How many players on our current list would you consider are living the life of an AFL footballer vs living the life of an AFL footballer. How many players both past and present could one sit next to Nathan Jones and say that they've devoted the same amount of energy into being an AFL footballer as he has? From Watts and Gawn to Frawley and Sylvia. The list of players who come through the doors of the MFC only to tap into half of their capacity as players and even humans is endless. It's no wonder we haven't unearthed a star for so long. Players need to adopt a philosophy on what it means to live in this world. What it means to have a vocation. What it means to have a purpose. Players need to be educated on what it means to be human. What their their very real capacity is and where it could take them. I look at Sydney and think about their players. Players like Parker. A pick 40 in the 2010 draft. But someone who has wholly given themselves to being an AFL footballer. Max Gawn has one AA year and look at his last month of football? The way he has been playing and the way he carries himself. He is caught up in the celebrity life that comes with being an AFL footballer. Watts is the same. Bugg is the same. Frawley and Sylvia were the same. Examples are everywhere. Who do we hold accountable for this? When does it change? 

 

3 - Genuine list imbalance. This is by far the easiest to fix.  This point could be broken down into sub-headings but I will try and keep it as one. I would go so far to disagree with the majority of the supporters on here who believe that the major reason we lost to Collingwood was because of a lack of care or war although there were absolutely some appalling efforts when it came to running defensively and defensive efforts in general from some players which is linked to the point above. 

I don't care for stats much as most know, but what my eyes tell me when I watch our team play is that we have a genuine lack of decision making and kicking/handballing execution skills across the entire list. It's an obvious weakness and is the sole reason we let so many teams either back into games or kick away with bags of consecutive goals. Other variables such as momentum, individual player confidence and performance levels and crowd also come into play but only after the fact.

We lost the game in the first quarter and it was undoubtedly because of skill errors and turnovers. You simply cannot tackle an opposition team when you turn the ball over on the fly. Both tackling numbers were down in the first quarter but ours were worse because we were worse by foot and they made us pay. In the last three rounds of football we had Dom Tyson (Inside mid) playing on a wing, ANB (Inside mid) playing on a flank and Brayshaw (Inside mid) playing on a back-flank. Three players that are playing positions they should not be playing in at AFL level. 

Wing - To see an improvement next year, we need an actual wingman. A player who has the capacity to run hard two-ways and uses the ball well. That player is not Dom Tyson. He almost single-handedly caused us the most damage in the first quarter on Saturday. His disposal quality, his opponent Phillips and his lack of two-way running and defensive pressure absolutely destroyed us. It would be the same as playing Matt Priddis on a wing. I don't understand it for the life of me.

Half-forward - ANB. Role player or not, Richmond have proven this year how important it is to have genuine small forwards in your side. They completely changed the profile of their list by playing all three of Rioli, Castagna and Butler in their forward-half. All players are fairly smart, two of them are good users, they threaten the scoreboard and they're all unbelievably quick and apply manic pressure at all times. ANB was drafted as an inside mid whose strength is his endurance and grunt. He is a player who is limited in his skills, decision making and goal kicking. He simply shouldn't be playing that position. It's like Rohan Bail all over again in that one decent year he had.

Half-back - Brayshaw. I understand that almost out of necessity he was re-introduced to the AFL lineup at half-back but I hope supporters now realise like they have with Tyson that he is not an elite user of the ball. He is effective. But he also butchers it. His one wood is as an inside mid and by god he better be back in that midfield mix next year permanently.

I'm not going to debate whether or not players like Tyson should be traded/delisted etc like many posters have in other threads. (I'll do that in the Tyson thread). But what I'm absolutely certain of is that these three positions must be filled with players who suit those positions and will therefore change the balance of our side for the better. It'd have an enormous positive influence if we identified the right players with the right attributes. 

There's plenty more I could go on about in regards to the state of our list but these three positions are a start and the three points in this thread are of great significance to me and are ones I care about deeply. 

If all three are addressed over the off-season in some capacity, we could see a big jump from the club. 

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Big Demon 197]

Some interesting points.

1. Yes they are everywhere including this forum, you get a player that plays with passion like a Bernie Vince and half the forum think he is some sort of common thug. There does seem to be a lot of tea totalling biscuit dippers following this club and the game is harder than you lot.

2. I have a feeling that that problem will resolve itself. Once Viney takes over the leadership his ability to lead by example will carry a lot of weight. At the moment we almost have an on field leader in Viney and an off-field leader in Jones (as per todays press conference), Viney needs to lead from both angles.

3. Agree on Tyson, he finds it a lot and we need to use that so another year in position please. Brayshaw on the other hand I would use for a big trade such as Lever, we have a lot like him and he is the worst ball user in the team yet still has currency.

 

 

[DubDee 25,918]

11 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

couldnt disagree with this any more.  I think you overestimate the role that we supporters play. so if the 'soft' supporters toughened up the MFC would play tougher footy?  please

Is Sydney's supporter base reflective of their team or attitude?

Has the arrogance of the Hawks fans been an issue for their success?

The team were terrible on saturday and there are no excuses. supporters chose to deal with it however they want to

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Am I the only one who expected this list to go:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

 

[Grapeviney 9,731]

4 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Am I the only one who expected this list to go:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

 

I had the same 3 but in a different order:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

[What 18,810]

How long has Dave Misson been at the club?

Every single year we run out of steam when it matters.  Yes thats a side effect of having a young list,  but surely it is time for a fresh head of conditioning/fitness and some new ideas.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Petraccattack

[Fat Tony 5,252]

1) Our supporters have nothing to do with the on-field performance IMO other than we don’t have enough of them so we need to play games in NT.

2) I am not in a position to really judge the professionalism of our players versus other clubs, but I would be surprised if it is really very different from club to club.

3a) Tyson is a liability and I totally agree that we need to find a fast and skillful wingman. This should be our key aim of the off-season.

3b) I disagree on ANB, who has averaged 18 possessions this season (versus just 11 for Castagna and laid 4.6 tackles versus 3.0). I think he plays the high half forward role very well especially given our outnumbering game plan except for the number of skill errors he makes. Even so, he has developed much better than expected and has been one of the surprise packets of the year IMO.

3c) Brayshaw has the tools to play as a high half back IMO. Dual sided, good in the air, reads the play well. Only three midfielders can be inside the square and given Brayshaw is well down in the line, he needs to find another position.

[billyblanks29 184]

I agree that the supporters psyche is linked to the club. It's all subconsciously linked. We don't expect to win. Neither do they. We accept mediocrity in our own lives, I know I do. I'm sure you can all find examples. We have to change as supporters for the players to change as well.

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

Our supporters have everything to do with the club.  The "Go Dees", cheese platter, "good try" mentality permeates the club and the playing group.

Any other club has cow sh*t or chicken hearts dumped on the club's door today.  

We were happy with the idea of being 8th.  We should have been livid that we weren't in the frame for top 4 and come out and rubbed Collingwood's noses in it.  But we were happy enough because we've improved.

Ex-players like Lyon and Schwarz being in the media, and the constant hype that gives the club, also contributes to the ridiculous profile some of our players enjoy .  Petracca in Mike Sheahan's top 50 at the start of the year?  Spare me.  I wish we never got any air time.

The AAMI park, coffee-culture, Richmond-living, SKWOSH board shorts parties also contribute.  They don't want it badly enough.

Great thread SMTJ.  Summed up a lot of the anger and I might not need to punch as many walls tonight.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Phew! I'm glad you got Jack Watts in there!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

6 minutes ago, Watts Jurrah Dunn? said:

Our supporters have everything to do with the club.  The "Go Dees", cheese platter, "good try" mentality permeates the club and the playing group.

Any other club has cow sh*t or chicken hearts dumped on the club's door today.  

We were happy with the idea of being 8th.  We should have been livid that we weren't in the frame for top 4 and come out and rubbed Collingwood's noses in it.  But we were happy enough because we've improved.

Ex-players like Lyon and Schwarz being in the media, and the constant hype that gives the club, also contributes to the ridiculous profile some of our players enjoy .  Petracca in Mike Sheahan's top 50 at the start of the year?  Spare me.  I wish we never got any air time.

The AAMI park, coffee-culture, Richmond-living, SKWOSH board shorts parties also contribute.  They don't want it badly enough.

Great thread SMTJ.  Summed up a lot of the anger and I might not need to punch as many walls tonight.

Can you teach me how to be a better supporter,  O brilliant one? Do I need to yell more? Pot more players? Do I need to blame Jack Watts in more threads? Drink more Woodstock cans instead of a bottle of red? 

Please tell us as you are clearly a better supporter than most. 

[Bitter but optimistic 22,242]

56 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

2 - Vocation Vs lifestyle. How many players on our current list would you consider are living the life of an AFL footballer vs living the life of an AFL footballer. How many players both past and present could one sit next to Nathan Jones and say that they've devoted the same amount of energy into being an AFL footballer as he has? From Watts and Gawn to Frawley and Sylvia. The list of players who come through the doors of the MFC only to tap into half of their capacity as players and even humans is endless. It's no wonder we haven't unearthed a star for so long. Players need to adopt a philosophy on what it means to live in this world. What it means to have a vocation. What it means to have a purpose. Players need to be educated on what it means to be human. What their their very real capacity is and where it could take them. I look at Sydney and think about their players. Players like Parker. A pick 40 in the 2010 draft. But someone who has wholly given themselves to being an AFL footballer. Max Gawn has one AA year and look at his last month of football? The way he has been playing and the way he carries himself. He is caught up in the celebrity life that comes with being an AFL footballer. Watts is the same. Bugg is the same. Frawley and Sylvia were the same. Examples are everywhere. Who do we hold accountable for this? When does it change? 

 

3 - Genuine list imbalance. This is by far the easiest to fix.  This point could be broken down into sub-headings but I will try and keep it as one. I would go so far to disagree with the majority of the supporters on here who believe that the major reason we lost to Collingwood was because of a lack of care or war although there were absolutely some appalling efforts when it came to running defensively and defensive efforts in general from some players which is linked to the point above. 

I don't care for stats much as most know, but what my eyes tell me when I watch our team play is that we have a genuine lack of decision making and kicking/handballing execution skills across the entire list. It's an obvious weakness and is the sole reason we let so many teams either back into games or kick away with bags of consecutive goals. Other variables such as momentum, individual player confidence and performance levels and crowd also come into play but only after the fact.

We lost the game in the first quarter and it was undoubtedly because of skill errors and turnovers. You simply cannot tackle an opposition team when you turn the ball over on the fly. Both tackling numbers were down in the first quarter but ours were worse because we were worse by foot and they made us pay. In the last three rounds of football we had Dom Tyson (Inside mid) playing on a wing, ANB (Inside mid) playing on a flank and Brayshaw (Inside mid) playing on a back-flank. Three players that are playing positions they should not be playing in at AFL level. 

Wing - To see an improvement next year, we need an actual wingman. A player who has the capacity to run hard two-ways and uses the ball well. That player is not Dom Tyson. He almost single-handedly caused us the most damage in the first quarter on Saturday. His disposal quality, his opponent Phillips and his lack of two-way running and defensive pressure absolutely destroyed us. It would be the same as playing Matt Priddis on a wing. I don't understand it for the life of me.

Half-forward - ANB. Role player or not, Richmond have proven this year how important it is to have genuine small forwards in your side. They completely changed the profile of their list by playing all three of Rioli, Castagna and Butler in their forward-half. All players are fairly smart, two of them are good users, they threaten the scoreboard and they're all unbelievably quick and apply manic pressure at all times. ANB was drafted as an inside mid whose strength is his endurance and grunt. He is a player who is limited in his skills, decision making and goal kicking. He simply shouldn't be playing that position. It's like Rohan Bail all over again in that one decent year he had.

Half-back - Brayshaw. I understand that almost out of necessity he was re-introduced to the AFL lineup at half-back but I hope supporters now realise like they have with Tyson that he is not an elite user of the ball. He is effective. But he also butchers it. His one wood is as an inside mid and by god he better be back in that midfield mix next year permanently.

I'm not going to debate whether or not players like Tyson should be traded/delisted etc like many posters have in other threads. (I'll do that in the Tyson thread). But what I'm absolutely certain of is that these three positions must be filled with players who suit those positions and will therefore change the balance of our side for the better. It'd have an enormous positive influence if we identified the right players with the right attributes. 

There's plenty more I could go on about in regards to the state of our list but these three positions are a start and the three points in this thread are of great significance to me and are ones I care about deeply. 

If all three are addressed over the off-season in some capacity, we could see a big jump from the club. 

 

I'd be more concerned with soft bellied players than "soft bellied supporters" Steve. We pay - we expect them to play.

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

Going into this season I hoped the "Gawn factor" would give us the edge that would make us a contender.

It didn't happen. Not really confident that any of our present players have the X factor to take us all the way. Hope I'm wrong.

Not sold on the game plan (lacks forward structure perhaps) but that is for another thread.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

2 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Going into this season I hoped the "Gawn factor" would give us the edge that would make us a contender.

It didn't happen. Not really confident that any of our present players have the X factor to take us all the way. Hope I'm wrong.

Not sold on the game plan (lacks forward structure perhaps) but that is for another thread.

Couple of X factor players

CP5

Oliver

Viney

Hunt

They need a bit more time

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

7 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Couple of X factor players

CP5

Oliver

Viney

Hunt

They need a bit more time

Viney = good/ very good player but doubtful X factor

Hunt .... would like to think so but at present he only has the speed factor

Oliver and CP5 are the obvious candidates ...perhaps... let's hope so... Oliver needs to develop a kicking game

PS.. On thinking some more perhaps Hogan but not necessarily as a FF but more a CHF/ Dustin Martin type player

Edited August 28, 2017 by Diamond_Jim

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

50 minutes ago, DubDee said:

couldnt disagree with this any more.  I think you overestimate the role that we supporters play. so if the 'soft' supporters toughened up the MFC would play tougher footy?  please

Is Sydney's supporter base reflective of their team or attitude?

Has the arrogance of the Hawks fans been an issue for their success?

The team were terrible on saturday and there are no excuses. supporters chose to deal with it however they want to

I believe that we as supporters have a much greater input and influence than you and others may give credit for. 

The examples are endless. The pats on the back that our supporters give to players who fall short in their ability to make a genuine and tangible impact on the club and game. It's the way in which the support is given. Watts gets 20 possessions and two goals and everyone pats him on the back as if he's ripped the game apart. Why? Because we're used to mediocrity.

It's an on-flow effect. Watts then sits back and thinks, "yeh Gee, I played pretty well" and then just floats along. We seem to have other young players with enormous potential who do the same. We pat Max Gawn on the back for one great year and he does the same.

We applaud mediocrity. We've been so bad for so long in so many areas that some supporters' understanding and perspective of what should be applauded is so out of whack. 

It's a cycle, I don't care if others don't agree. Generally they're the ones who are stuck in that bubble of whack perspective. 

Sydney have created something up there that is real. Other clubs do the same. You can always pick out stars and game changers at other clubs. I can't with us. And I think part of it is to do with the way Melbourne supporters operate. It has to go hand-in-hand. We are part of the club and part of what creates any sort of atmosphere at a game. 

I could go on..

 

[P-man 13,366]

Right between the eyes as always Steve.

I think your point 2 gets overplayed. We have long bemoaned Melbourne players being programmed differently to players at other clubs in terms of professionalism and the weighting they attribute to football in their lives. I honestly don't think we're that different to any other club in terms of the mix of personalities and attitudes to football. There was a time where we were found lacking in professionalism and some of the examples you name are valid, at least from an external perspective. I don't think it rings true to the same degree now. 

In the new generation I see players who are hungry for success. They aren't all going to be Jack Vineys who live, eat and breathe football but you're not going to get that at any club. Gawn seemed to enjoy his public profile last season just as much as he does now, maybe even moreso, and it didn't affect his performance. I can only speculate that the dramatic drop in form is somehow linked to his extended time off and he just needs a solid pre-season to reset.

There's little doubt the end of the year revealed the mental fragility that still exists at the club. But I don't think that's necessarily a vocation vs lifestyle issue. Nor does it erase the number of games where we came back into the contest where in previous years we would've just rolled over. Gains have been made in that aspect but confidence and resilience as a group takes a while to build, and my hope, wishful thinking or not, is that the calamitous end to the year adds some extra desperation in 2018. For all of them. Irrespective of age and time at the club.

I agree re players being out of position although I see scope for improvement in ANB and Brayshaw that includes a greater capacity to play in attacking roles. Certainly Brayshaw's disposal is a concern. His ball drop is just plain ugly and needs addressing. ANB has grown this season I believe he will continue on that trajectory while Tyson's kicking and decisonmaking has gone the other direction and it hurts us on a weekly basis. If he's not being played in the guts then he's a liability. The example of Richmond points to why there will remain a role for someone like Bugg who will chase and tackle like his life depends on it (although his radar needs sorting out).

Re the supporters, I'm reluctant to sink the boot into a group that has put up with so much from the club and its ongoing failings. This was yet another false dawn and kick in the guts. If supporters lower their expectations to playing finals or even just showing signs of improvement, it's because they've been burned too many times to do otherwise. The players and coaches are the ones in control of fate on the field. Not the supporters. We are the observers and dreamers who care way too much about something that is all but completely out of our hands.

 

[Umpire Please 120]

1 hour ago, Petraccattack said:

How long has Dave Misson been at the club?

Every single year we run out of steam when it matters.  Yes thats a side effect of having a young list,  but surely it is time for a fresh head of conditioning/fitness and some new ideas.

Good point which is worth looking at. I would also like to see us create a position on the coaching panel of either a current senior umpire( so head hunt them)or a recently retired senior umpire. Their role would be to watch and provide feedback to players and other coaches during match simulation so that next year we reduce by a min of 15% the number of free we give away. Given we missed this years finals by the % of two goals, this would all add to our ability to get into the eight and maybe top four next year. I don't have the stats but I would say we give the opposition at least three goal a game from free kicks.  Also having one if their own white maggots on our side might give us a better chance of getting more 50/50 decisions our way?

[DaveyDee 421]

44 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I'd be more concerned with soft bellied players than "soft bellied supporters" Steve. We pay - we expect them to play.

Pay peanuts get monkeys.

What is your estimate on a yearly basis how much extra profit would this community (Demonland) provide the MFC?

 

[jumbo returns 6,741]

23 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

I could go on..

 

Please do - especially the riveting, refreshing material on Watts

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

One thing we can do as supporters is to encourage the club to drop the NT games.

Other than short term money they have no positives and the negatives have been long discussed.

Perhaps we could have a reserve a seat day... twice a year at $10 per seat and the money problem is reduced.

Never underestimate supporter power when it comes to developing a culture of success ...... somehow the supporter base needs to make it clear that it is now demanding success

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Am I the only one who expected this list to go:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

 

 

1 hour ago, Grapeviney said:

I had the same 3 but in a different order:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

Very good.

It'd be incredibly boring to be an on the fence supporter, always believing it'll work out. 

Strangely enough the players seem to think that way too.

Imagine if you were head coach Wiseblood. You'd still have Garland running around believing that he's doing a great job.

 

 

 

[jnrmac 20,108]

This is all great but the fact is when the real stuff happens and games are on the line we are nowhere. There are numerous example of Melbourne where "we didn't come to play" FFS what is that. Supporters on here knew we would get smashed by Ess in rd 2 last year but the club was clueless. Supporters on here knew that North would beat us this year and the club was clueless. Many here were supremely nervous about us against Collingwood on the weekend. But it seems the club took it as 'just another game'

Goodwin has to take full responsibility along with the players for the pizzweak start against Collingwood. He is desperate to keep things on an even keel and not have emotional ups and downs but rather professional calm analysis and measured statements etc. That might be fine when you have a professional football team like say geelong, but we don't. Our team is mentally fragile and needs a rocket. Northey in particular was fantastic at building up teams pre game. he is a long way from Goodwin.

I remember the 2000 GF build up. Daniher was 'on the couch' on the Monday after the Brownlow to Woey. He was giggling and loving the build up to the GF. Sheedy looked mean as cats pee and hardly said a word. I knew then we would get beaten. Even more so in the rooms before the game where all the backslappers in the Melb rooms were there, excited to be in a GF and the mood jovial and relaxed. The Ess rooms were high intensity with boxing, shouting and wrestling. We were cooked from the first minute.

When Sheedy coached GWS he knew the team would get smashed but he was adament for them never to take a backward step. This resulted in them being well known for giving lip and having a little too much unwarranted arrogance. But it set them up as a club where the standards were high in relation to having a dip.

Contrast that with our on and off field leadership. Take out Viney and we have Lewis, Jones, Tom and Bernie.  Hardly going to walk over hot coals for that lot. Goodwin needs to get some mongrel quickly.

[jnrmac 20,108]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Am I the only one who expected this list to go:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

 

We know he is your love child. Garland is particularly upset you have moved on from him.

Exactly who was it that allowed 7 marks in the collingwood fwd 50 in the first quarter? Which defenders should take responsibility for that?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

25 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We know he is your love child. Garland is particularly upset you have moved on from him.

Exactly who was it that allowed 7 marks in the collingwood fwd 50 in the first quarter? Which defenders should take responsibility for that?

Thick until the end, hey jnr?  You always seem to turn up at the wrong time, looking to give some sort of cutting response, yet you make yourself look foolish.   Couldn't be more further from the truth.  I'll cop the Garland reference on the chin, but O Mac?  Nah.  I may have defended the criticism he takes weekly, but he's hardly my 'love child' as you so cleverly put it.