my only concern with brown is whether there is more to his knee injury, we would be lucky if he chooses us with a few clubs interested and potentially a rethink with a new norf coach. Weid is actually better as a lead up key but had played deep alot as he is often the only key banana and part of the plan is to get the ball in deep and lock it in

9 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Rubbish. Richmond would have easily covered him with a number of options. He has a very poor finals record. Average 8 disposals and that was before the congestion of todays finals.

Richmond do have a number of options but they need to cover Weideman, Petracca when forward, possibly TMac if he finds form, Fritsch and then our smalls. He improves our structure and Richmond would need to cover him

12 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I know the game was wet but surely people watching tonight or any of the big finals noticed that key forwards kicking multiple goals aren't really a factor in finals.

It's contested work, speed, pressure, gut running to create options, tackling, smarts and calm under pressure that matters.

Ben Brown - not the kind of player that makes an impact in high pressure footy.

This year the top 6 all had high goal kicking KPFs: Kennedy, Darling, Lynch, Reiwoldt, Hawkins, Dixon, Hipwood, Mihocek.

 

12 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

my only concern with brown is whether there is more to his knee injury, we would be lucky if he chooses us with a few clubs interested and potentially a rethink with a new norf coach. Weid is actually better as a lead up key but had played deep alot as he is often the only key banana and part of the plan is to get the ball in deep and lock it in

Our medicos have already given him the once over, so you would assume that if there were any long term concerns we would either pull out of the race or offer North something significantly less than, say, a second round pick.

And of all the clubs interested (that we know of), we have the most upside.  We are well and truly in the hunt and his club of choice if the rumours are true.

31 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Yes, we have a band of players beyond the top 12 who should be roll players

You'd expect Baker to be a roll player on his sort of dough.

21 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Richmond do have a number of options but they need to cover Weideman, Petracca when forward, possibly TMac if he finds form, Fritsch and then our smalls. He improves our structure and Richmond would need to cover him

Laughable. Richmond have just won their third Flag agasinst better forward lines than ours. My point is Brown is a lead up forward and there was not  time and space for a lightly built lead up forward in last night game.

41 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

my only concern with brown is whether there is more to his knee injury, we would be lucky if he chooses us with a few clubs interested and potentially a rethink with a new norf coach. Weid is actually better as a lead up key but had played deep alot as he is often the only key banana and part of the plan is to get the ball in deep and lock it in

My concerns remain

the ridiculous and painful runup when kicking for goal
the ridiculous hair
the ridiculous staging for free kicks (with some considerable success I might add)

I accept none of these are reasons to not embrace him but its not easy

Our forward line is rubbish and has been for some time - Weid IMO still has a very long way to go and TMac seems destined for somewhere else sadly. Jackson could be good in years to come but will need time to mature
 

20 minutes ago, demonstone said:

You'd expect Baker to be a roll player on his sort of dough.

That's a crumby post

22 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Laughable. Richmond have just won their third Flag agasinst better forward lines than ours. My point is Brown is a lead up forward and there was not  time and space for a lightly built lead up forward in last night game.

What on earth are you talking about?

Brown is lightly built? He is taller and heavier than lynch.

Riddle me this  - after winning a flag in 2017 without a big key forward why did they then go after and land lynch, a big key forward who instantly became their highest paid player?

Another question. Giiven how critical big key marking defenders of the ilk of mcgovern, may and vlaustin ate in modern footy who do you think are best placed to negate their influence? Mid size forwards like say hannan?

One more question, related to the second. Geelong best big key marking defender  one of the best in tbe AFL  was arguably the best player on the ground in tbe first half. But was unsighted in the second half. Which forward do you think was most responsible for that, and in particular stopping him marking?

Again, going to Hannibal's point about players doing a job and playing their role, perhaps to your surprised lynch metrics and kpis were unlikely be goals kicked, or even marks taken. His kpi is no doubt halving contests and making sure the ball hits rhe ground where his smaller teamates can do damage. Which they did. And as a result won a grand final 

Edited October 25, 20204 yr by binman

3 minutes ago, binman said:

What on earth are you talking about?

Brown is lightly built? He is taller and heavier than lynch.

Riddle me this  - after winning a flag in 2017 without a big key forward why did they then go after and land lynch, a big key forward who instantly became their highest paid player?

Another question. Giiven how critical big key marking defenders of the ilk of mcgovern, may and vlaustin ate in modern footy who do you think are best placed to negate their influence? Mid size forwards like say hannan?

One more question, related to the second. Geelong best big key marking defender  one of the best in tbe AFL  was arguably the best player on the ground in tbe first half. But was unsighted in the second half. Which forward do you think was most responsible for that, and in particular stopping him marking?

Again, going to Hannibal's point about players doing a job and playing their role, perhaps to your surprised lynch metrics and kpis were unlikely be goals kicked, or even marks taken. His kpi is no doubt halving contests and making sure the ball hits rhe ground where his smaller teamates can do damage. Which they did. And as a result won a grand final 

Boring load of nonesense. never found you make much sense. 

4 minutes ago, Sydee said:

My concerns remain

the ridiculous and painful runup when kicking for goal
the ridiculous hair
the ridiculous staging for free kicks (with some considerable success I might add)

I accept none of these are reasons to not embrace him but its not easy

Our forward line is rubbish and has been for some time - Weid IMO still has a very long way to go and TMac seems destined for somewhere else sadly. Jackson could be good in years to come but will need time to mature
 

I'm sure once Brown starts taking marks, winning soft free kicks and slotting goals you'll have no problems embracing him

4 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Boring load of nonesense. never found you make much sense. 

So who do you think the club should reasonably target for next year?

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

So who do you think the club should reasonably target for next year?

One of two, proven finals players or young talent like the selection of Rivers

12 minutes ago, binman said:

What on earth are you talking about?

Brown is lightly built? He is taller and heavier than lynch.

Hard to argue with stupidity mate. Brown would be a great addition to the club.

6 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Boring load of nonesense. never found you make much sense. 

Fair enough.

I know then not to bother engaging in a discussion about football with you then.

Though to be honest you don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to make sense of my questions. 

14 minutes ago, Sydee said:

My concerns remain

the ridiculous and painful runup when kicking for goal
the ridiculous hair
the ridiculous staging for free kicks (with some considerable success I might add)

I accept none of these are reasons to not embrace him but its not easy

Our forward line is rubbish and has been for some time - Weid IMO still has a very long way to go and TMac seems destined for somewhere else sadly. Jackson could be good in years to come but will need time to mature
 

Couldn’t care less what his run up is like or his hair (sideshow bob) if he slots his goals. 
 

As for the staging for free kicks if the contact is there then so be it. 
 

Brown gives us massive Improvement in our forward structure and given how well our forward line has been operating and kicking goals it’s very much required. 
 

This is all on the proviso that our great mastermind of a coach doesn’t change his position and play him in the backline!

20 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Boring load of nonesense. never found you make much sense. 

If this is your response to someone who tries to engage in a decent discussion with you, even when you don't deserve it, then I don't know why you're here.  

Binman, for the record, makes plenty of sense and does so on a far more regular basis than your good self.

1 hour ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I like learning from experienced players that have played in premierships and been part of a rebuild.  Players that have seen the whole journey up the ladder.  And I particularly like listening to Luke Hodge.  He talks sense and is straight to the point.

Very recently he said that the difference between being a good team and becoming a flag team is recruiting role players.  Obviously, the stars are already in place, but a handful of stars aren't enough if you don't surround them with players who can help complete the task.  Think Hale, Poppy, Guerra etc. at Hawthorn.  You really need 22 players performing their role to a high degree.  21 or 20 will leave you short and cost games.  Richmond are a perfect example of how lesser lights who perform their role to a high level make an enormous difference.

You only need to look at the top 20 of our B&F.  There was a chasm between the top 12 and the performances of the rest.  In reality, to win more games than we lost shows how good our better players performed, because they weren't being supported.  I blame the lack of quality role players, but also the coaching panel, game structures, etc. 

I think we've got the core group of stars or very good players already on our list, but we're lacking quality role players to take us forward.  A great core group, but not great/quality depth. 

Not every player we're looking at recruiting this trade period needs to be a star.  They'll ALL have deficiencies that Deespencer can pick apart, but if we choose wisely we might just bring in players that can have a significant difference to our overall fortunes.

Well said.

I'd add to it also that (a) we need a less fragile game plan (b) the team all needs to be on the same page and (c) we need better skills execution to take us to the top level.

On the game plan, how often did we see rebound 50 goals against this year? Our turnovers I50 converted to opposition coast to coast goals at an infuriating rate. Which was then followed by extended periods of zero risk boundary hugging, easily defended footy. And then another turnover.  And so on. Then the equally infuriating press conference where the coach said he knew what the problem was but didn't seem to know how to fix it.

I'm happy with role players, but they'll need good foot skills as a minimum and a better script.

 

52 minutes ago, deanox said:

This year the top 6 all had high goal kicking KPFs: Kennedy, Darling, Lynch, Reiwoldt, Hawkins, Dixon, Hipwood, Mihocek.

 

Yet only Hawkins averaged more than 2 goals a game. 
 

When you consider the top teams score a lot more than bottoms teams I think it’s the other 17 that contribute more than the 1 main goal kicker. 
 

And again my issue isn’t that Brown wouldn’t be good and a short term upgrade on Weideman. I just would rather stick with the guy we have than add Brown, cost Weid his spot in the side and not make a big improvement. 
 

 

Brown is a good player and will be relatively cheap to recruit. 

I think the main concern is that our Plan A will become 3 tall forwards (Brown, Weideman and Jackson) plus Fritsch. There is not a lot of tackling pressure in that group. Is that capable of being a premiership forward line? Is it even a good strategy in the modern AFL game? I have my doubts but it’s not impossible. 

The other worry is Brown’s form and fitness. Are we buying yesterday’s man?

45 minutes ago, binman said:

What on earth are you talking about?

Brown is lightly built? He is taller and heavier than lynch.

Riddle me this  - after winning a flag in 2017 without a big key forward why did they then go after and land lynch, a big key forward who instantly became their highest paid player?

Another question. Giiven how critical big key marking defenders of the ilk of mcgovern, may and vlaustin ate in modern footy who do you think are best placed to negate their influence? Mid size forwards like say hannan?

One more question, related to the second. Geelong best big key marking defender  one of the best in tbe AFL  was arguably the best player on the ground in tbe first half. But was unsighted in the second half. Which forward do you think was most responsible for that, and in particular stopping him marking?

Again, going to Hannibal's point about players doing a job and playing their role, perhaps to your surprised lynch metrics and kpis were unlikely be goals kicked, or even marks taken. His kpi is no doubt halving contests and making sure the ball hits rhe ground where his smaller teamates can do damage. Which they did. And as a result won a grand final 

These are good questions so I’ll answer them. 
 

Brown isn’t lightly built but I don’t think he’s agile or powerful, he seems to have a high center of gravity. Long legs that are good for long striding but not for quick changes of direction.
 

Lynch moves like a smaller player, he was a small until a growth spurt. Talls who can really move are the most valuable players in the game.

Stewart had a great first half as the drop off defender. But the Tigers pressure, contested ball winning and speed of movement stopped him getting free after half time. That’s how you beat drop off defenders. If anyone knows that it’s watching Jake Lever when we do or don’t have good pressure up the ground. Plus we sent Fritsch to Haynes and Ridley in the last two rounds, we can use a medium player like him to man intercept markers and keep them honest.

I just see it as Brown or Weid playing the Lynch role whilst Jackson does a bit of back up ruck and is great as a mobile second tall. He can chase, tackle and win the ball on the ground like a small and that’s more important 

18 hours ago, Demon Forever said:

Interesting what lewis said on fox footy "he has to make up his mind if he stays where he sees out his time or leaves for success" Lewis mentioned geelong here and not the dees. Dont know if it was a slip of the tongue or something more behind it

Good he should go there, another 33 year old on their list, hopefully a young gun is pushed out, some fear Geelong I see a list about to go over the hill how many 32 year old do they have, and they want to add another  two 32 year old in Higgins and Smith, Taylor and Henderson are still their 2  out of their 5 best defenders.

18 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

My point is Brown is a lead up forward

This has been written about Brown so often that it's become an assumed fact, but what does it even mean? All full forwards lead at the ball carrier when they have the space.

Tom Hawkins, one of the best contested marking forwards in the league, is arguably coming off a career best season. He averaged 1.5 contested marks per game. Ben Brown averages 1.6 contested marks per game across his entire career.

Brown is a damn good forward and much more rounded player than most give him credit for. If he gets back to anything even close to his best form with us, he will improve our forwardline immeasurably. If we could get him for a second round pick, that would be one of the biggest steals at the trade table in living memory.

Brown is a definite upgrade on TMac. If we can unload TMac and can bring in Brown for the price being bandied about I'd do it in a heartbeat.

If Brown is at the Demons in 2021 what forward setup do you guys envision we'll go with?

In 2020 we tried 1 tall, 2 talls and 3 talls with the 2 talls of Weid & Jackson being the most successful.

I still like a 3 tall scenario (obviously not all games and opponent depending) that has Jackson playing a more mobile roll given he'll have another full preseason under his belt.

1 hour ago, Sydee said:

My concerns remain

the ridiculous and painful runup when kicking for goal
the ridiculous hair
the ridiculous staging for free kicks (with some considerable success I might add)

I accept none of these are reasons to not embrace him but its not easy

Our forward line is rubbish and has been for some time - Weid IMO still has a very long way to go and TMac seems destined for somewhere else sadly. Jackson could be good in years to come but will need time to mature
 

WTF does that have to do with his being taken on or not??  What century/decade are you even living in??  How about we get Max to rid himself of that hipster beard as well!  Sure, it's reasonable to comment on the excessively long run up (but if it helps him to kick accurately, then I certainly don't have a problem with it), or to comment on his staging (not that I've really noticed it so much), but sorry, I find those concerns about a person's appearance (which has no bearing on their footballing ability) to be so out of step with reality.

Edited October 25, 20204 yr by hardtack