Depth issues

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

41 minutes ago, drdrake said:

The best and worse thing to happen to the VFL clubs is AFL vic canning the development league.  You will be able to cut support staff numbers and player cost. The flip side will be getting the next Generation of kids developed to play at your club.

Back to our depth The issue is age, out side Weiderman and Brayshaw, what kids do we have that played on Saturday to be half excited about

Our young depth has been diminished because we've traded away our last couple of 2nd rounders, and also brought forward a 1st to get Weid. On the list those that are under 22 who offer some quality and have been seen at AFL level are - Trac, Harmes, ANB, OMac, Brayshaw, Oliver, Weid, JSmith and Stretch. Those who haven't played yet include King, Flipper, Johnstone, McKenna and Huelett.

I don't think it's an issue of not having the kids to be excited about, we've got plenty of those, it's still that middle ground depth we need (at least if we want Casey to be competitive). 

[Drunkn167 5,093]

Our depth is no where near as bad as a lot of you are making out to be, sure it could always improve but how about taking a realistic look at it rather then a knee-jerk reaction this entire site seems to be having after missing out on finals.

1) Melbourne had/has one of the longest injury lists out of any team this season, even though not a lot of those players were best 22, they were most definitely great depth players

2) A lot of those injured players would primarily have been playing VFL this season, yet Casey still managed to make it to a Semi-Final, where apart from 1 terrible quarter, nearly beat a team with almost a complete list of AFL listed players, and whose seniors look likely to be playing in the AFL Grand Final

3) The MFC passed on a lot of mature players last year, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Terlich, Michie, Grimes. Maybe not great at AFL level but definitely great VFL/Depth players, yet the VFL still made finals.

4) The whole team is still very young and in a development phase, it would have been nothing short of greatness to win a final this year. Just look at how many players in the best 22 are 25 years old or under, that is a huge upside.

Maynard looks likely to get more senior games next year. JKH reminds me of Neal-Bullen last year, killed it in the VFL but did nothing at AFL level. Look at what ANB has done this year so don't write off JKH yet. Kennedy very unlucky not to get any games this season. Stretch is still developing. Johnstone hugely improved towards the end of the season. Keilty has been playing great footy. Tim Smith showed great signs before being injured. Weideman is only 20 years old!!! For a KPF he still has a long way to go but the way some of you are talking about him his driving me mad, Wagner has only been on the list 2 years don't forget, Kingy after coming off a big injury did some great ruck work this season, Joel Smith can play AFL, VDB and Mckenna got unlucky with injury.

I'm probably missing some players but god dammit, you guys need to relax.

2018 will be a good year.

 

[GoD's67 111]

22 hours ago, monoccular said:

Richmond has had a dream run injury wise, and look at their stability at VFL and AFL levels.

And while strategic injury is not the cause for us missing finals it certainly played a big role.   Without those strategic injuries out depth would not have been so tested. 

Take Martin and Cotchin and maybe Reiwoldt out and they would be just above average: Duckwood missing or playing injured, plus Dangerfield and Hawkins and Geelong would / have struggled.   IMO only Sydney (academy) and GW$ ( draft gimmies)  have enough real depth to cope with multiple strategic injuries. 

Sydney were 0-6 at start of year with injuries.

[beelzebub 23,379]

I think the greatest error may be to equate having a good/decent VFL as having depth.

[puntkick 325]

10 hours ago, Drunkn167 said:

Our depth is no where near as bad as a lot of you are making out to be, sure it could always improve but how about taking a realistic look at it rather then a knee-jerk reaction this entire site seems to be having after missing out on finals.

1) Melbourne had/has one of the longest injury lists out of any team this season, even though not a lot of those players were best 22, they were most definitely great depth players

2) A lot of those injured players would primarily have been playing VFL this season, yet Casey still managed to make it to a Semi-Final, where apart from 1 terrible quarter, nearly beat a team with almost a complete list of AFL listed players, and whose seniors look likely to be playing in the AFL Grand Final

3) The MFC passed on a lot of mature players last year, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Terlich, Michie, Grimes. Maybe not great at AFL level but definitely great VFL/Depth players, yet the VFL still made finals.

4) The whole team is still very young and in a development phase, it would have been nothing short of greatness to win a final this year. Just look at how many players in the best 22 are 25 years old or under, that is a huge upside.

Maynard looks likely to get more senior games next year. JKH reminds me of Neal-Bullen last year, killed it in the VFL but did nothing at AFL level. Look at what ANB has done this year so don't write off JKH yet. Kennedy very unlucky not to get any games this season. Stretch is still developing. Johnstone hugely improved towards the end of the season. Keilty has been playing great footy. Tim Smith showed great signs before being injured. Weideman is only 20 years old!!! For a KPF he still has a long way to go but the way some of you are talking about him his driving me mad, Wagner has only been on the list 2 years don't forget, Kingy after coming off a big injury did some great ruck work this season, Joel Smith can play AFL, VDB and Mckenna got unlucky with injury.

I'm probably missing some players but god dammit, you guys need to relax.

2018 will be a good year.

 

 

[Diamond_Jim 12,592]

6 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I think the greatest error may be to equate having a good/decent VFL as having depth.

Good point BB. Although I like following Casey (it is like "bruise free supporting") I was having a similar thought today.

None of the interstate teams* have a "reserves team" and they do very well as a group by comparison to the Melbourne teams.

*Not sure if Port AFL players play for Port SANFL these days...

[puntkick 325]

Just keep your eye on the traditional Port VFL players and the way they play. 

[Drunkn167 5,093]

10 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I think the greatest error may be to equate having a good/decent VFL as having depth.

I'm sorry but how can you possibly come to this conclusion? For the last 6 to 7 years, every team that has won the Grand Final has fielded very strong seconds teams, proving that good depth most definitely = a strong seconds side and vice versa.

4 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Good point BB. Although I like following Casey (it is like "bruise free supporting") I was having a similar thought today.

None of the interstate teams* have a "reserves team" and they do very well as a group by comparison to the Melbourne teams.

*Not sure if Port AFL players play for Port SANFL these days...

What? Yes they do. Every AFL team fields a seconds team in either the VFL, SANFL, WAFL or NEAFL.

Not only that, but they recently have been a pretty good indicator for AFL success.

Footscray won the 2016 VFL flag, and look what their senior side did. Sydney's seconds have been a powerhouse for years.The Giants won lasts years NEAFL Flag and they came close to playing in a premiership last year. Brisbane beat Sydney in this years NEAFL premiership, and although weren't a strong AFL team, many believe they have improved immensely this season and have some of the best youth development in the competition. Box Hill was always up the top during Hawthorns domination.

I don't really follow the SANFL or WAFL so I can't speak of their successes with reserve sides.
 

I know you guys are hurting, I am too, but our depth is pretty good when looking at all the indicators which show just as much. With a couple of delistings, trades, and recruiting over the off season, it is only going to get better.

Melbourne hasn't been in this good of a position for 10 years! Why are a bunch of you still so god damn cynical? I don't understand.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Depth isn't the issue.

It's our top-end talent that needs to improve.

Players like Wagner and JKH are more than capable of coming in and playing a role, that's what we need them to do. We don't need them to come in and star every week.

[beelzebub 23,379]

You're nearly there D167.

We haven't actually won ANYTHING. Weve been decent. Our VFL players have found their ceilings. Those ceilings for a very few got them gigs at AFL with varying success.

Yes those doing well at AFL (teams) have depth and that extends into their VFL lineups. Those with REAL depth tend to over-run those without.

Port an excellent example of competing well at VFL but they would provide little depth to an AFL team as most play well at that level but would struggle stepping up.

We have a VFL team that FAILS to get the choccies. Again very good at that level but in reality providing little assistance to MELBOURNE.

We have poor depth. 

Those teams you refer to D167 have players bashing down doors and then replicating form into the firsts . Thats depth.

We have a merry go round of nqrs getting games in the hope someone clicks.

Most have been shown inadequate. 

You think we have depth ? You're welcome to your view.

Its not mine.

[Drunkn167 5,093]

4 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

We have poor depth. 

Those teams you refer to D167 have players bashing down doors and then replicating form into the firsts . Thats depth.

We have a merry go round of nqrs getting games in the hope someone clicks.

Most have been shown inadequate. 

How so?

Maynard was decent in his debut and should be great next season

Joel Smith will be great at AFL level if he can get his injuries under rap

Tim Smith showed good signs

Stretch last season played some great senior footy 

Keilty could be knocking down the door if everything goes well over preseason 

If Wagner is in form he can do his role well

Frost is a gun

Mckenna showed great signs at the Giants although unproven at AFL level 

VDB is good at AFL level 

Kennedy although not great at seniors still can do a job

Kent was great in 2016

Im probably missing many more 

How the hell is that not good depth?

[Guest]

I think the truth is somewhere between BB and Drunkn.  I think Drunkn over-rates a few which is understandable given his connection to Casey.  BB errs on the side of misery and I understand that to having followed this club for  45 years.3

Keep the [censored] on the park and we wouldn't be having these converstations.  Injuries can destroy a year even if you have the very best list.

A fit list in 17 and I think we were probably pushing top 4 and we would be talking about what we would need to do to take the next step.

Lever and Gaff or another slick mid would see a fit MFC challenge in 2018.

 

[beelzebub 23,379]

There is an actual difference between depth and potential.

Depth means you have players that CAN

Potential ..is anything. Some players mentioned may indeed provide depth as the acclimatise and develop. 

The Kents, Kennedy's, Spencer's, Harris's are list cloggers.

Frosty actually played most of the season . 

There's a lot of ' might' ...not a lot of "is" 

Theres indeed some real potential among some. Thats all it is currently. If and when they arrive its adds to the equation. 

Currently as a list we have not much more that 25-25 who are capable ( with effect ) at AFL level.

Thats not depth. Thats middle of the road one block from struggle street.

Its an interesting discussion really.

All glass half full half empty stuff.

Either way 50% isnt much.

Fwiw we have more than that. Maybe 65% . Depth ?  Not from my perspective. We have enough to put together a decent team barring injuries.

Good teams as suggested WIN  things.

And here we are discussing what might/ought/could be if standing on a ladder squinting !! All the while others continue playing.

Potential isn't depth. Potential is potential.

Depth is depth (realised potential ) and already exists in clubs with it. We don't.

[beelzebub 23,379]

Fwiw D167 i reckon your lad might indeed make it. Its all before him and he seems to have the 'stuff' Preseason awaits.

Thought Maynard stiffed not to get another game this season.

Both Smiths ' might' be something...might. Be all about where can fit it.

I always liked Vanders...where to play him now ? Develop as yet another mid ?

Wagner..forget

McKenna..project.

If more than a few come on...and become useful they will go to the notion of depth...but in reality depth suggests you have usuable players atcan effective level beyond the 25 or so usual suspects at selection.

Personally i only rate about 30 on the list as footballers at this level and only about 16-17 really useful, 8-9 ok/so-so and rest as i said much earlier , noobs, projects/dev and rest spuds.

Hopefully we can all agree this time next year. We'll need depth to play finals.

[whatwhat say what 22,775]

fwiw, both port and freo's sides have made the sanfl and wafl grand finals respectively

toumpas was bog as a rebounding half back for the port magpies

[M_9 2,082]

18 hours ago, drdrake said:

...

Back to our depth The issue is age, out side Weiderman and Brayshaw, what kids do we have that played on Saturday to be half excited about

Dion Johnstone? 

[beelzebub 23,379]

6 minutes ago, M_9 said:

Dion Johnstone? 

Might have something. Look to the 'praccy' Preseason comp . Think he'll get a run  (if trains house down )

[old dee 23,792]

I actually think our depth is ok it is the "good" player category that is sadly lacking.

We have a about ten Good players and almost nil very good players and no one who can turn a game when the run is going against us.

Right now our list is a eight to ninth placed list, as the coach said the ladder does not lie.

We desperately need four very good players who can stay on the park.

[beelzebub 23,379]

Must be just me OD but that looked a good argument for the "no depth"

[old dee 23,792]

4 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Must be just me OD but that looked a good argument for the "no depth"

What I am saying bb is we have next to no really good players. Who is our "buddy"?

 

[beelzebub 23,379]

1 minute ago, old dee said:

What I am saying bb is we have next to no really good players. Who is our "buddy"?

 

Don't have one

[Pennant St Dee 13,190]

8 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Good point BB. Although I like following Casey (it is like "bruise free supporting") I was having a similar thought today.

None of the interstate teams* have a "reserves team" and they do very well as a group by comparison to the Melbourne teams.

*Not sure if Port AFL players play for Port SANFL these days...

Both WA sides have reserve teams

Meth Coast are all playing at East Perth and missed finals

Freo is Peel and made the GF last week after rolling Subiaco which caused a fair bit of controversy. They played 15 AFL listed players and the full time component stood out

[old dee 23,792]

19 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Don't have one

Exactly.

we don't have anyone even close.

[monoccular 17,432]

1 hour ago, M_9 said:

Dion Johnstone? 

What do you know about Dion as opposed to hope about him?  

[rjay 24,939]

The 'Demonland' bookends.

Start of the season...Blues sky...incredible depth how can we fit them all in our best 22, great problem to have.

End of season...Dark clouds...the sky is falling we lack depth, so many VFL level only, we are stuffed.