POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

7 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

Agreed. And the few times the ball spilt forward in the centre bounces and we got it going forward instead of backwards caught them unaware and lead directly to goals or scoring shots. The coaching staff need to come up with some different plans. They were out coached yesterday. No team should ever concede 8 goals in a row and still not bother to change tactics. Throw a man behind the ball and kill momentum or something at least. The coaches sticking to a very offensive game plan that was clearly not working cost us the game yesterday. Hopefully Goodwin is learning something from these losses and looks at becoming more flexible and developing a plan b.

Disagree - the players had to try and maintain posession, slow the game down and seize the momentum back in the 3rd quarter. They just couldn't maintain posession, they kept making stupid decisions with the footy and turning it over with poor disposal. Not much the coaches can do about that.

[titan_uranus 25,017]

19 hours ago, Scoop Junior said:

So it seems we learned nothing from the St Kilda game. Did anyone in the backline call players back after we hit the front? Did Jones or Viney yell at a few forwards to go down into defence? Do we even have plans to deal with these situations or do we just play aggressively all the time?

After Viney's goal Watts signalled to the bench to ask whether he should go back or not.

The bench signalled to him to stay put.

I think we took the view that with 3 minutes left it was too early to flood back.

The bigger issue is what happened once we took possession in the back half and, most of all, why, once the ball came out (through Vince) we only left three players in the defensive 50 - Fremantle had a 4-on-3 for the McCarthy goal, that is absolutely inexcusable. Even if not flooding back, it's unfathomable that we were outnumbered.

2 hours ago, SFebey said:

One last thing, yesterdays crowd was pathetic. Merely 28,000 at a guess for a MFC home game against a side we should of beaten. Besides Easter what is everyone's excuse? The Freo crowd was also more vocal. Anyway all the best and lets cheer the boys on in coming weeks, a big test of leadership on the line. See you all in another 4 weeks and Happy Easter.

Pathetic? That was the largest crowd we've ever drawn to an MCG home game against Fremantle.

Easter is a reasonably decent excuse, by the way. Not everyone or every family forgoes a four-day weekend to stay back to watch a football game, especially when the opponent is Fremantle (not exactly a blockbuster).

And unless you were sitting in the Fremantle cheer squad, the crowd was quite obviously more vocal.

Pretty weak complaint, IMO.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

4 hours ago, A F said:

It's an interesting post this, because it could be argued that the reason the Hawks and the Dogs played to such a system was because they didn't have the level of elite talent that we have. So they needed role players right the way across the ground.

Now, obviously, I'm not saying these teams didn't/don't have stars in them, but we have an awful lot of talent right across the ground, that has arguably already surpassed our older brigade in less than a year. Oliver, Hogan, Petracca, Stretch, Salem are already in probably our top 10-12 most important players.

The bigger question is will a system provide sustained success or will the young stars we currently have provide sustained success? It might be a bit of a balancing act.

System every time. Champion team beats a team of champions 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Dr. Gonzo

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

3 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

One thing I noticed yesterday was the number of times Freo players smothered the ball from a Melb kick attempt. Reckon I saw this 5 times - much more than usual.

Were we slow on those occasions? Was it just the result of close pressure? Whatever the reason it's a terrific team moral and confidence booster.

Yep particularly in the first half BBO, was extremely frustrating. It showed the Dockers had come to play as they were going at 110% & pressuring us all over the ground.

[Skuit 10,031]

TLDR

This is a reactionary post. I thought we played some of the best footy I’d ever seen from the MFC vs. the Cats, so being concerned about a core issue a week later is obviously a bit silly, especially considering our primary mid trio in Jones, Viney and Tyson are/were all struggling for various reasons (all of which I believe is injury/fitness related).

And here goes: we have too many mids.

Or to rephrase, too many pure mids, as much of our mid-field talent isn’t effective enough out of position. I’ve always felt the philosophy of jamming the team full of mids and then squeezing them all in on the flanks was a sound one, but now I’m not sure if it’s maybe having an impact on form and matches.

Vince, Salem, Lewis (HB) and Brayshaw, Vanders (HF) are far from optimal imo. I get that we are transitioning still, and trying to build versatility, but is it time for a reshuffle? Or perhaps a tweak in our approach through greater specialisation (although we are currently limited list-wise) and leaving some mids out (as is the case atm with Brayshaw)?

As to a reshuffle: I would like us to bite the bullet and move Salem into the centre now, and otherwise forward of the ball. Lewis to the centre and dropping back when we need cool heads rather than as a play-maker. Vince up to the wings or hovering around half-forward. Harmes seems better suited up forward also – with some kicking practice.

That leaves a void in defence (where Hibberd, Smith and Wagner could be of some help if we were looking more toward specialisation). As to our current mids, Jones looks a goer from half-back and Stretch looked okay starting in defence last year (still, he needs to grab a wing and make it his own). Angus probably needs to break into the middle and stay there, and then maybe look at a switching half-back role in the future.

And forward; when not in the middle, we should work on developing Oliver’s game up forward. He could be extremely damaging in the role. I still think AVB has potential but it needs to be in the middle first and forward second, and he obviously has a lot of competition. Tyson could also work here, as he’s previously been okay at finding space and leading up, but he needs to get his radar back.   

End post.

[4JacksandaKing 52]

38 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yep particularly in the first half BBO, was extremely frustrating. It showed the Dockers had come to play as they were going at 110% & pressuring us all over the ground.

If we could've kicked for goal better, we would have won.....all those missed shots killed us. As it did in the Cats game

[Adam The God 30,246]

Interesting and it seems Roosy is as frustrated as some on here.

https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/afl/news/paul-roos-tees-off-on-jordan-lewis-and-jesse-hogan

“I went there live just as a supporter yesterday,” Roos said.

The lack of Jesse:

“While I was watching, there’s goals that Jesse Hogan would have kicked yesterday… from a technical point of view he’s got elite endurance and he knows the game plan.

“He gets up the ground really well but he can also get back inside forward 50… I probably would have thought there would have been four or five genuine opportunities that Jesse would have created.”

Weideman's game:

Roos said that young tall forward Sam Weideman - who copped a corkie yesterday and struggled - is a good talent but not yet capable of getting to the same level that Hogan consistently shows.

“Just watching Sam play compared to Jesse, Sam’s not yet capable, with the injury as well, of getting up and back inside 50,” Roos said.

“So there’s no doubt that Jesse would have generated four or five scoring shots and another four or five goals.

The avoidable suspensions:

”Clearly it’s frustrating, an injury to Max Gawn is unavoidable, a suspension to Jesse Hogan and Jordan Lewis is not unavoidable.

“That’s something that both players can control… it’s a big difference 3-1 rather than 2-2.”

“What’s gonna come down to the eight is the injury, is the suspension, is the 13 goals 20 instead of the 20 goals 13.

“They’re the things at the end of the year that are gonna make a big difference, and the last two weeks we’ve seen Melbourne should have won here but for poor kicking and the suspensions.

“There’s no doubt the suspensions cost them yesterday, definitely.”

Edited April 16, 2017 by A F
Hope this is okay, mods? It's not the entire article. Just snippets.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Good comments from Roos, AF.

I heard a commentator (Healy?) mention that Lyon has been big on a manic attack on the ball and the ball carrier. Pressure. The 3rd qtr showed that. We panicked and made poor decisions, even when under little pressure. 

[Skuit 10,031]

We played suspiciously like we have in the past with Roos at the ground. Let's blame him.

[buck_nekkid 5,858]

We are 2-2, sitting 8th, with another 5 teams also 2-2.

3-1 would have been about right for our expectations pre-season.  We didn't even deserve to be so close after that appalling 3rd quarter, so getting it to a point we nearly won it shows what we are capable of/ why we should be pizzed with what we saw.

Goodie says the club is 'devastated'.  Ok, PROVE it.  Let's see that translate into a hard edge, no quarter given fearless football...for 4 quarters.

[bing181 9,230]

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The bigger issue is what happened once we took possession in the back half and, most of all, why, once the ball came out (through Vince) we only left three players in the defensive 50 - Fremantle had a 4-on-3 for the McCarthy goal, that is absolutely inexcusable. Even if not flooding back, it's unfathomable that we were outnumbered.

This is the ball coming in which lead to the McCarthy goal:

[titan_uranus 25,017]

1 minute ago, bing181 said:

This is the ball coming in which lead to the McCarthy goal:

An absolute shambles.

Granted, Fremantle were rolling the dice significantly leaving this many players forward of centre, but regardless it's actually strains the realm of credulity to believe that, despite possessing the ball, we would have had 15 players somewhere other than in the defensive 50 with 1.46 left on the clock.

[bing181 9,230]

14 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

An absolute shambles.

Granted, Fremantle were rolling the dice significantly leaving this many players forward of centre, but regardless it's actually strains the realm of credulity to believe that, despite possessing the ball, we would have had 15 players somewhere other than in the defensive 50 with 1.46 left on the clock.

If you look outside of that image, Jetta had run up the wing following his man (or someone) to block off receiving from the Fyfe possession, and Hunt was in between that back group and the ball-carrier (Langdon?) to stop him just running it in, so they seem to have done what they needed to. But that still doesn't account for the extra man forward.

Think it just shows inexperience, together with not being completely switched-on at the end of a gruelling game. The structures needed to be reset given the situation, but they weren't. On the basis of that image, you'd actually think the situations were reversed, that we'd thrown people forward desperately looking for an extra score, exposing ourselves at the back.

I'd like to say "bet it doesn't happen again", but not so sure.

On the other hand, "bet if Lewis and Hibberd were out there it wouldn't have happened", seems closer to the mark.

[Adam The God 30,246]

42 minutes ago, bing181 said:

This is the ball coming in which lead to the McCarthy goal:

Wow. Just wow. A 5 on 3. Amateur hour.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

At the ground I noticed the above was similar to out set ups the whole day. I don't believe pointing out this situation identifies why we lost. There were multiple scenarios like this all day. Our numbers have to commit pressure around the contests. They didn't, that chain you'll see Freo win the clearance and stream forward without pressure.

Fact is we aggressively set up now. If we lose the clearances we are very venerable.

I think even Goody admitted in his presser that it needed some correction

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Unleash Hell

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

55 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

An absolute shambles.

Granted, Fremantle were rolling the dice significantly leaving this many players forward of centre, but regardless it's actually strains the realm of credulity to believe that, despite possessing the ball, we would have had 15 players somewhere other than in the defensive 50 with 1.46 left on the clock.

Funnily enough, we had the 8 man defence for centre square ballups most the game! Actually, there is nothing funny about it at all!

[Skuit 10,031]

41 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

Fact is we aggressively set up now. If we lose the clearances we are very venerable.

 

 

Is this a portmanteau of venereal and vulnerable?

[Adam The God 30,246]

50 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

At the ground I noticed the above was similar to out set ups the whole day. I don't believe pointing out this situation identifies why we lost. There were multiple scenarios like this all day. Our numbers have to commit pressure around the contests. They didn't, that chain you'll see Freo win the clearance and stream forward without pressure.

Fact is we aggressively set up now. If we lose the clearances we are very venerable.

I think even Goody admitted in his presser that it needed some correction

 

Surely, they practice for these situations and surely, they have different set ups for defending a lead or a stoppage that could result in surrendering the lead.

I don't think it's good enough that we find out the hard way that a situation like this needs some correction. No [censored], Goody. At the very least, play man on man. 

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

19 minutes ago, A F said:

Surely, they practice for these situations and surely, they have different set ups for defending a lead or a stoppage that could result in surrendering the lead.

I don't think it's good enough that we find out the hard way that a situation like this needs some correction. No [censored], Goody. At the very least, play man on man. 

 

Maybe the spoil should have been directed AWAY from the Dockers goal NOT TOWARDS it. Finding the boundary line would have been better.

[Adam The God 30,246]

8 hours ago, SFebey said:

I guess the most frustrating parts are, we should definitely be 4-0 and we should have beaten Freo at the MCG where they have a terrible record.

I disagree with some that Fremantle played well, I thought they were hopeless which is why I was fuming. They really did play badly besides one quarter and we still lost it! Go figure.

We have definitely improved from previous years, no question, however there are still some alarm bells there that still exist. Our disposal and decision making is still terrible, this is often hidden by decent DE% but I think a lot of that is from cheap handballs around the back of a pack in a circle which cloud our overall use by foot. Besides Watts, Salem & to a lesser extent Petracca & Oliver in close - I don't trust anyone to hit a target at any time consistently. This is just simply not good enough, whether it is poor coaching or recruiting I don't know but we are going to always struggle putting sides away because of this. This does concern me as it is not a quick fix, we need to draft better disposers. This is really hurting us in the backline if you go through the names, Salem a single exception.

Backline - Salem & Jetta tick, Vince is not a backmen and shouldnt play there, McDonald lets his great work down with some stupid dropped marks and poor decisions. Frost a definte improvement on Oscar. Melksham is a disgrace, always has been, Dons fans still laughing at us. Hibberd should do well.

Another alarm bell & one that has annoyed me for many years is the topic of leadership & leaders. So often when the game is in the balance or we are getting smashed our senior players & leaders go missing. First culprit is Nathan Jones. While a Demonland & fan favorite, I personally have never rated the guy to the levels people put him on. He was a standout in a pathetic side for many years, racking up cheap handballs out the back of packs & throwing the ball on the boot only to butcher it going forward with kicks - not a captain.

Speaking of captains, 1. I'm not sure why the hell we would put Jack Viney in such a position after the Trengove/Grimes debacle, does the club not learn? 2. It is standing out like dogs balls that there is conflict between these guys. I watched them closely yesterday, not very encouraging of each other. Also there was no running back to the middle to get the group of mids in a huddle before a ballup from either Jones/Viney, there certainly was from the Freo mids. In fact I was quite appalled with Jones' body language and plodding back to the centre after Freo goals. He is the last left of a bad era, he has served us well in a crap time (not knocking his endeavour), just his leadership. The Co-Captaincy is just stupid, one it has upset Jones and two, it is affecting Viney significantly, he's been as poor as anyone so far and that is the only thing that has changed.

I cant remember which quarter it was, 3 or 4 but on the HFF for Freo one of their players waltzed through a small gap between Jones & Viney, both of them made no effort to tackle or lunge then looked up at each other and put their heads down. That's when I became frustrated. I think we need a leader from another club to come in from a winning culture to give the captaincy to, for eg Lewis or Ablett type, I feel for Jones but he just doesn't know how to win a game.

We seem to be shutting down the opposition mids for big parts of the games but not capitalizing through good disposal & accurate goal kicking. Better set sets in the last two weeks and we would be sitting on top of ladder or close to it, so that's important to remember. The Melbourne of previous years would be 0-4 and getting belted so we have improved heaps, just need better composure and stop over hand balling and finessing. i50's are very positive as are shots on goal but we really need to nail those set shots. On bad days that alone will keep us in games much like Geelong. And then when the opposition mids get on top they crucify us, Jones & Viney are there amongst it and not doing anything! Billy Stretch needs to back himself in more than running around in circles, he has the pace so use it. Spencer very serviceable against a bloke who would beat any ruckmen.

The Coach - I'm going with a tick so far, bar the Co-Captaincy. He can only control the players to a certain extent then it's up to the leaders. There is no doubt the boys are playing for him. A couple of things though, over hand balling and a very offensive game plan will need to be reined in a bit. In the last two games there has been too many cheap goals scored when the opposition gets out the back. Against Geelong, Omac was somehow getting caught one on one with Tom Hawkins, not sure who was to blame but Goodwin should have sorted that out quickly. A few of his selections have also raised eyebrows, personally I would've played Spencer the week before and gave Max a lot of time up forward to clunk his marks, plus Melksham & Oscar getting a gig for way too long. Vince in the backline just shouldn't continue!

Forward line - seems dysfunctional but we are still scoring freely, just not accurately with squandered set shots. Hogan is a big out in terms of team balance & structure, but I'm still shocked at why he and Lewis got so many weeks! Perhaps play Trengove up forward for a while in a Menzel type role, see how he goes. I'm not sure how or where Hannan fits in just yet but needs to do more. And how brilliant has Watts been this year for someone who hardly got a game in JLT, he has stood up better than I had imagined & along with Oliver has carried us so far. We just need to get it into his hands more than 14 times, he creates play and normally goals when he touches the ball, but he is not a ruckmen & should be played on a wing so he can also get back when we are getting some heat. Petracca is going to be a star and I'd like to see him with more of the ball to be honest, maybe more time in the midfield, we need these two to get 25+ touches a game along with Salem.

So a combination of happy we have improved but frustrated at what could have been but definite improvement. Just need to really focus on our lack of leadership issues, set shots and disposal by foot. Next 4 weeks are crucial and I would like to see us 5-3 and after the next 8 weeks 9-3/8-4. Anything less than 8-4 and I will be slightly disappointed.

One last thing, yesterdays crowd was pathetic. Merely 28,000 at a guess for a MFC home game against a side we should of beaten. Besides Easter what is everyone's excuse? The Freo crowd was also more vocal. Anyway all the best and lets cheer the boys on in coming weeks, a big test of leadership on the line. See you all in another 4 weeks and Happy Easter.

I don't agree with all of this, but I think you've got me on board with your rating of our co-captains. Leadership is a massive problem as soon as Gawn and Lewis are out of the side. Most teams would struggle with leaders like that out, but we've still got our two co-captains going about things and failing to influence games in the way captain's should.

I'm not sure we have an answer on the list at the moment. I don't think Lewis should be captain, but definitely VC. I'm not convinced in 2017 or 2018, Jones or Viney should be captain. I think Saturday was a real test of their leadership material without Max and Jordy. They failed miserably. What can be done?

I was all for the co-captaincy at the start of the year, but it's clear that a combination of injury and/or form has diluted Viney's influence so prominently that he's almost a liability. His kicking is ordinary, even some tackles are failing to stick and he's not getting the clearance numbers or UPs and CPs that he managed last year. This is with even more help from guys like Oliver and Tyson sharing the load. 

I think Jack's ceiling is higher than his father's if he is allowed to play the game instinctively. If they're getting him to 'learn' at the moment via playing defensive roles then that's okay for the time being, but I think there needs to come a point eventually where Jack is allowed to play instinctively as he did last year. If he's not allowed this freedom, I fear he's a cusp B grader at best, when his potential could be as high as A grade.

Edited April 16, 2017 by A F

[Adam The God 30,246]

5 hours ago, Skuit said:

TLDR

 

This is a reactionary post. I thought we played some of the best footy I’d ever seen from the MFC vs. the Cats, so being concerned about a core issue a week later is obviously a bit silly, especially considering our primary mid trio in Jones, Viney and Tyson are/were all struggling for various reasons (all of which I believe is injury/fitness related).

 

And here goes: we have too many mids.

 

Or to rephrase, too many pure mids, as much of our mid-field talent isn’t effective enough out of position. I’ve always felt the philosophy of jamming the team full of mids and then squeezing them all in on the flanks was a sound one, but now I’m not sure if it’s maybe having an impact on form and matches.

 

Vince, Salem, Lewis (HB) and Brayshaw, Vanders (HF) are far from optimal imo. I get that we are transitioning still, and trying to build versatility, but is it time for a reshuffle? Or perhaps a tweak in our approach through greater specialisation (although we are currently limited list-wise) and leaving some mids out (as is the case atm with Brayshaw)?

 

As to a reshuffle: I would like us to bite the bullet and move Salem into the centre now, and otherwise forward of the ball. Lewis to the centre and dropping back when we need cool heads rather than as a play-maker. Vince up to the wings or hovering around half-forward. Harmes seems better suited up forward also – with some kicking practice.

 

That leaves a void in defence (where Hibberd, Smith and Wagner could be of some help if we were looking more toward specialisation). As to our current mids, Jones looks a goer from half-back and Stretch looked okay starting in defence last year (still, he needs to grab a wing and make it his own). Angus probably needs to break into the middle and stay there, and then maybe look at a switching half-back role in the future.

 

And forward; when not in the middle, we should work on developing Oliver’s game up forward. He could be extremely damaging in the role. I still think AVB has potential but it needs to be in the middle first and forward second, and he obviously has a lot of competition. Tyson could also work here, as he’s previously been okay at finding space and leading up, but he needs to get his radar back.   

 

End post.

 

Some good points in here, mate. I disagree with the too many mids theory, but agree with where those mids should be playing.

Salem has had quite a few midfield minutes this year, particularly over the last two weeks. I like him starting half back and going in there for stints at the moment. He also has that flexibility of playing half forward too. 

Gus needs to start off half back and go in for stints in the middle.

Lewis into the middle for large patches and then onto half back and the wing for the remainder.

I think VDB should be played forward though, with limited stints in the midfield.

Jones is good off half back and was pinging off the defensive zone beautifully in the first two rounds in particular. His game against the Saints should be his bench mark. Probably his best game for the club IMO. He's only had the one down week (injury probably hampered him too). I hope he can bounce back against the down hill skiers this week.

Tyson is a pure mid and should rotate between half forward and the middle, but spend most of his time in the middle. Needs to fix that disposal and work on his defensive spread though.

Viney needs to get the job done in the middle or on a wing. The way he was running on Saturday has left me doubts about his fitness. He is carrying an injury, but it's obviously not enough to keep him out of the side. I wonder if when Lewis comes back in, whether we'll rest Viney for a week, or whether we'll try and get Jack to the bye before resting him.

And I love the idea of Oliver resting in the goal square or forward, ala Dusty. Oliver's is obviously not as explosive, but I'd argue just as strong around the contest and a lovely kick. If he can add goals to his game and continue tracking the way he is, he'll be one of the top 5 midfielders in the league by the start of 2018.

Looking forward to seeing how Smith goes later in the season and am a Wagner fan too.

Smith, Jetta, Hunt, Salem and Hibberd off half back will make us pretty dashing back there. Some good ball users there in that bunch. 

As I said somewhere else though, we need to sort out our KPDs. Maybe it's TMac and Frost for 2017-2018, until we can lure a decent FA or trade in a Weitering/Lever type? Get those two bookends right and playing together for the next 15-30 games, and our defence will start to look so much better. Particularly, under the direction of a Lewis.

Edited April 16, 2017 by A F

[MT64 1,144]

19 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

I would guess many probably aren't genuine supporters bandi that's why. It's a social club, they go there to catch up with a few buddies and business mates, talk shop and forget about their woes or daily grind over a few quiet ones or maybe more than a few! Footy isn't their main game or passion in most cases I wouldn't think.  Im sure there's a few genuine passionate ones but if they got too noisy or rowdy they would probably be told to settle down or they'll be shown the door by the uppity officials ! ? If you're a seriously passionate MFC supporter then the MCC is probably not the place to hang out.

A fair percentage would also be non MFC members and a small percentage probably barrack for other teams including the opposition.

So far from the truth. I was sitting on the first level and the noise and support was both loud and very keen. This year the amount of colour (red and blue) has been the best and never seen so many kids. Great for the future. Stupid comment about the staff. They are just doing a job. Never seen one "uppity" one in over 30 years. Dumb comment.

 

 

 

[shorty 233]

On 15/04/2017 at 11:06 PM, A F said:

Clayton Oliver.

No...

Clarify is not an A grader yet just a 19 yr old kid trying to make his way in the game.

 

[Moonshadow 17,676]

7 hours ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

Maybe the spoil should have been directed AWAY from the Dockers goal NOT TOWARDS it. Finding the boundary line would have been better.

Maybe, but in the picture they had a man forward of the contest as well. 5:3 was the main error.

[praha 11,240]

10 hours ago, bing181 said:

This is the ball coming in which lead to the McCarthy goal:

That is infuriating.