4 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate... but what if Hird was telling the truth, and he really hadn't known about the illegality and scale of the Essendon supplements program, as adminstered by Dank, reporting to Robinson, reporting to Hamilton? What if he had sincerely believed that his admonishments, and request that no further injections be made without Dr Reid's approval, were taken seriously and had established a safe line of reporting?

How is it that Hamilton and Corcoran, for example, haven't been drawn and quartered for public entertainment during one of the 'We are Essendon' marches?

Given he was warned by the AFL very early in the piece as it was brought to their attention about his interest in many and various exotic 'potions', given it was his connection to the weapon that saw Danks come on board, given it was essentially His idea to create the program,  given the texts between parties....yeah......Nah !

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Given he was warned by the AFL very early in the piece as it was brought to their attention about his interest in many and various exotic 'potions', given it was his connection to the weapon that saw Danks come on board, given it was essentially His idea to create the program,  given the texts between parties....yeah......Nah !

By all the reports it appears the AFL warned Hird personally and not the club itself. They knew who was calling the shots out at Windy Hill. 

26 minutes ago, america de cali said:

By all the reports it appears the AFL warned Hird personally and not the club itself. They knew who was calling the shots out at Windy Hill. 

As I said "Ginormous Ego" that still is clouding judgements! 

7 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate... but what if Hird was telling the truth, and he really hadn't known about the illegality and scale of the Essendon supplements program, as adminstered by Dank, reporting to Robinson, reporting to Hamilton? What if he had sincerely believed that his admonishments, and request that no further injections be made without Dr Reid's approval, were taken seriously and had established a safe line of reporting?

How is it that Hamilton and Corcoran, for example, haven't been drawn and quartered for public entertainment during one of the 'We are Essendon' marches?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news LG but there is no Easter Bunny and no Santa Claus and Hird new.

17 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

And you can use Stephen Dank and Dean Robinson as the witches.

Just need one more to make up the trio. Suggestions?

Half of hirdys problem is that he actually believes the stuff he says

6 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

Just need one more to make up the trio. Suggestions?

How about Bomber?  The three of them were also together at Geelong where witchcraft may have happened.

Edited January 12, 20178 yr by america de cali

Just now, america de cali said:

How about Bomber?  they all were together at Geelong where witchcraft may have happened.

Nice one! I have a whole new lesson to plan. 

22 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

Just need one more to make up the trio. Suggestions?

How about "biochemist" Shane Charter? Or "compounding pharmacist" Alavi? 

I suspect Hirds drug cheating went further back than when he was coaching.

 

Edited January 12, 20178 yr by Fork 'em

16 hours ago, america de cali said:

How can you believe he is the scapegoat when just about everyone else in positions of responsibility at Essendon were sacked or resigned swiftly? It took untill the bitter end and millions of dollars in his pocket  to get Hird out of the club. It was he who was in communications the most with Dank. He was the chief architect of the whole project. The perception that some hold that he is a  scapegoat is a sign that the Team Hird propaganda narrative has worked to some extent. He may be unlucky in that he got caught out while others at recently successful clubs may have got away scott free with their own programs.

I'm not going to derail this thread so will only comment on this once and won't respond.

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

Hird claims he agreed to a cutting edge programme within the rules. All the players signed a waiver that clearly stated the programme must be within WADA rules and not detrimental to any players health.

Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering.

The Government at the time were calling it "the blackest day in Australian sport" well before there was any evidence. The AFL stood side by side with the Government in the press conference. At that stage it was political. Someone was always going to hang.

Essendon could have cheated much more than any of us know. There are no records so how can we tell? The fact they have no records cannot be Hird's fault alone. Every piece of electronically stored and transferred data has a record. The fact this cannot be found suggests to me that it is much bigger than just being hidden on James Hird's laptop. This to me is the key. Again without being privy to the structures within the club I doubt Goodwin is responsible to oversee the integrity of Missions work at Melbourne.

The fact Bomber Thompson got these people to the club while director of coaching and yet seems unscathed suggests to me Hird is a scapegoat.

There are so still so many questions and yet so little answers I just think Hird is the fall guy. 

2 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not going to derail this thread so will only comment on this once and won't respond.

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

Hird claims he agreed to a cutting edge programme within the rules. All the players signed a waiver that clearly stated the programme must be within WADA rules and not detrimental to any players health.

Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering.

The Government at the time were calling it "the blackest day in Australian sport" well before there was any evidence. The AFL stood side by side with the Government in the press conference. At that stage it was political. Someone was always going to hang.

Essendon could have cheated much more than any of us know. There are no records so how can we tell? The fact they have no records cannot be Hird's fault alone. Every piece of electronically stored and transferred data has a record. The fact this cannot be found suggests to me that it is much bigger than just being hidden on James Hird's laptop. This to me is the key. Again without being privy to the structures within the club I doubt Goodwin is responsible to oversee the integrity of Missions work at Melbourne.

The fact Bomber Thompson got these people to the club while director of coaching and yet seems unscathed suggests to me Hird is a scapegoat.

There are so still so many questions and yet so little answers I just think Hird is the fall guy. 

Except for all the text messages between him and dank.

I was told a different story last weekend. Not that I believe it but it went like:

Hird's fervent denial that the players were injected with supplements depends on his belief that Dank had taken money for "the good stuff" but that Dank had not gone through with injecting the team with what he (Dank), finally realised was now prohibited. Hird found out the injections were actually saline and that Dank had not come through and had dudded Hird. Thats why Hird was wanting to have the actual records and not what was discussed and paid for. Obviously even if this was true, his intent was real. 

Not sure if this had been thrown up before as I hadnt kept up with the thread.

 

I heard Bomber was in total disagreement with what Hird was doing in preseason, and they were no longer talking. Would have been difficult coaching together.

5 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

That is because they accepted responsibility because 'it happened on their watch' even if they didn't know/weren't involved.  They did the honourable thing, fell on their sword and resigned.  They and their families have moved on without stigma. 

James did not accept the 'it happened on my watch' principle, disclaimed any responsibility and decided to fight it tooth and nail.  That was is right and his choice.  And he has paid a heavy price for that choice but it was his choice.  He and his family have not moved on.

Robson is another.

Whether it was honourable or just cutting their losses it was a smart thing to move on and away from the mess.

16 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

3 hours ago, america de cali said:

By all the reports it appears the AFL warned Hird personally and not the club itself. They knew who was calling the shots out at Windy Hill. 

I think the AFL did want Hird's scalp as some kind of symbolic gesture but whichever way you look at it he had to carry at a minimum some responsibility. The buck always stops with the coach like it or not.

I think Hird was very badly advised or chose not to listen to advice all through this time. This probably gives a clue as to why he brought in Robinson & Dank...I wouldn't be giving Hird a job in executive recruitment that's for sure.

I also believe the AFL & AFLPA have played a deceptive game in this whole saga...the AFL knew about the program and as they run the game should have stepped in and stopped it. They can order a club to wear clash jumper but they can't stop a supplements program that looked decidedly dodgy. Head in the sand.

They've managed to sneak away from the whole thing without anyone losing their job at AFL house...although AD did sneak off to greener pastures with a nice payout.

Wrecker, Hird and his henchmen ran , effectively, a black ops at Windy Hill. Officially the club either weren't privy to all and sundry and/or those that knew looked away.

Golden Boy was headhunted to lead the way. Some of the more influential,if nefarious, all but granted him carte blanche !!

This isn't by the book, accountable leadership 

8 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Wrecker, Hird and his henchmen ran , effectively, a black ops at Windy Hill. Officially the club either weren't privy to all and sundry and/or those that knew looked away.

Golden Boy was headhunted to lead the way. Some of the more influential,if nefarious, all but granted him carte blanche !!

This isn't by the book, accountable leadership 

BB, you're our most colourful poster on this topic!

50 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not going to derail this thread so will only comment on this once and won't respond.

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

Hird claims he agreed to a cutting edge programme within the rules. All the players signed a waiver that clearly stated the programme must be within WADA rules and not detrimental to any players health.

Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering.

The Government at the time were calling it "the blackest day in Australian sport" well before there was any evidence. The AFL stood side by side with the Government in the press conference. At that stage it was political. Someone was always going to hang.

Essendon could have cheated much more than any of us know. There are no records so how can we tell? The fact they have no records cannot be Hird's fault alone. Every piece of electronically stored and transferred data has a record. The fact this cannot be found suggests to me that it is much bigger than just being hidden on James Hird's laptop. This to me is the key. Again without being privy to the structures within the club I doubt Goodwin is responsible to oversee the integrity of Missions work at Melbourne.

The fact Bomber Thompson got these people to the club while director of coaching and yet seems unscathed suggests to me Hird is a scapegoat.

There are so still so many questions and yet so little answers I just think Hird is the fall guy. 

Wrecker I understand that you said you will not respond, but how do you account for the drugs that Hird took whilst coaching that were illegal for athletes, one even led to him suffering priapism for an extended period? He was experimenting with drugs whilst coaching and probably had been since Charters was his "personal coach" in his playing days. He was no pawn, he was the instigator.

39 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

 Golden Boy was headhunted to lead the way.  

 

Hird spent a good deal of time white-anting Matthew Knights during the previous season through the media leading to Knights sacking and Hirds appointment as coach.

 Found this clip of Hirdy addressing the essendon faithful.
 

 

Now it is Sheedy keeping Hird on the front page:  http://www.theage.com.au/afl/essendon-bombers/kevin-sheedy-launches-defence-of-james-hird-says-he-is-loved-20170113-gtqrn4.html

His (ex) lawyer, his father and now his mentor - all keeping him in the news.  All intent in pointing the finger at the 'drugs saga'/AFL.  All profess to care about his welfare and that of his family. 

Whatever the causes of his illness this has become an incredibly sad saga.  His family are the innocent parties and the ones being hurt the most. That his three sons have (apparently) stopped playing aussie rules is really sad.  They now play soccer. I would hate for my child to go to school, sport etc and be taunted in a way only kids can.

An attempted suicide is terrible enough for a family to deal with, without having it splashed in the news every 5 minutes.  All the people who profess to care should just stop and think about the kids before they say anything.  Then they should keep quiet.

Edited January 13, 20178 yr by Lucifer's Hero

2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not going to derail this thread so will only comment on this once and won't respond.

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

Hird claims he agreed to a cutting edge programme within the rules. All the players signed a waiver that clearly stated the programme must be within WADA rules and not detrimental to any players health.

Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering.

The Government at the time were calling it "the blackest day in Australian sport" well before there was any evidence. The AFL stood side by side with the Government in the press conference. At that stage it was political. Someone was always going to hang.

Essendon could have cheated much more than any of us know. There are no records so how can we tell? The fact they have no records cannot be Hird's fault alone. Every piece of electronically stored and transferred data has a record. The fact this cannot be found suggests to me that it is much bigger than just being hidden on James Hird's laptop. This to me is the key. Again without being privy to the structures within the club I doubt Goodwin is responsible to oversee the integrity of Missions work at Melbourne.

The fact Bomber Thompson got these people to the club while director of coaching and yet seems unscathed suggests to me Hird is a scapegoat.

There are so still so many questions and yet so little answers I just think Hird is the fall guy. 

Hi Wrecker. The bolded bit is of great importance. Hird was the head coach, the first responsibility of any head coach is to the welfare of his players. If Hird had any doubts he had to make sure everything was fine, he didn't, in fact when Ried raised concerns about the program Hird went over his head to Robson to complain that the program was being held up. Not the move of a smart manager concerned for the welfare of his players. As head coach Hird is also responsibly for the conduct of all coaches, any failure by them is a failure for him too, that is why the managers earn the big bucks and get the bigger penalties. He failed here to.

The other area he failed was his rhetoric about doing all the court appeals for the players, [censored], the players would not really have benefitted in any way from any of the court action taken by the club, it was all backside saving shenanigans by all involved. He could not have handled that worse. 

I wont go into his intent to cheat as it isn't clear enough either way. Although I do hold a view, it isn't strong enough to put on public record. 

All in all his experience as head coach is irrelevant, he was the head coach and from day one takes on certain responsibilities, he failed at those and failed miserably and should have taken the slap when it was offered. 

1 hour ago, Fork 'em said:

Hird spent a good deal of time white-anting Matthew Knights during the previous season through the media leading to Knights sacking and Hirds appointment as coach.

 Found this clip of Hirdy addressing the essendon faithful.
 

 

Worth revisiting this video too.

 

34 minutes ago, Chris said:

Hi Wrecker. The bolded bit is of great importance. Hird was the head coach, the first responsibility of any head coach is to the welfare of his players. If Hird had any doubts he had to make sure everything was fine, he didn't, in fact when Ried raised concerns about the program Hird went over his head to Robson to complain that the program was being held up. Not the move of a smart manager concerned for the welfare of his players. As head coach Hird is also responsibly for the conduct of all coaches, any failure by them is a failure for him too, that is why the managers earn the big bucks and get the bigger penalties. He failed here to.

The other area he failed was his rhetoric about doing all the court appeals for the players, [censored], the players would not really have benefitted in any way from any of the court action taken by the club, it was all backside saving shenanigans by all involved. He could not have handled that worse. 

I wont go into his intent to cheat as it isn't clear enough either way. Although I do hold a view, it isn't strong enough to put on public record. 

All in all his experience as head coach is irrelevant, he was the head coach and from day one takes on certain responsibilities, he failed at those and failed miserably and should have taken the slap when it was offered. 

and on top of that chris there was the switkowski report and the guilty finding of worksafe victoria

We are all supposed to believe that this started in 2010 when this bloke became interested in coaching at the top level straight away.

I suppose the ACA investigation started around about then and there was no interest in AFL teams by anyone, anywhere,anytime to getting an edge, err sorry, Whatever it was to takes! This probably goes way further back than we think and unless someone in the know spills the beans, whatever....

Poor old ,snookems, bombers couldn't wait any longer for another flag.

We'll have no "poor old snookems" here ty very much lol