THE BOMBERS' DOPING SAGA - THE FAT LADY SINGS

[biggestred 4,294]

The switkowski report was very illuminating.... they paid a guy to do a report and it came back with "pharmacologically experimental environment". I mean, their own report said that.

[monoccular 16,062]

On 12/01/2017 at 11:21 AM, Lucifer's Hero said:

I doubt it will be while Gil is at the helm...unless Gil starts to worry about the 'bad look' from the AFL being blamed for Hird's ill health. 

Or some Essendon people in high places (eg Victoria Premier, Victoria Governor) might start leaning on Gil.  And as we all know Gil can be quite 'flexible' when it suits him or when his precious image/government funding are at stake.

I think you may be stating the bleeding obvious: Gil cannot make tough decisions. He needs a Commission meeting, or a public opinion survey. 

7 hours ago, america de cali said:

How about Bomber?  The three of them were also together at Geelong where witchcraft may have happened.

The sort of witchcraft that mysteriously turn handbaggers into giant killers almost overnight?

[Mazer Rackham 14,969]

7 hours ago, Franky_31 said:

I was told a different story last weekend. Not that I believe it but it went like:

Hird's fervent denial that the players were injected with supplements depends on his belief that Dank had taken money for "the good stuff" but that Dank had not gone through with injecting the team with what he (Dank), finally realised was now prohibited. Hird found out the injections were actually saline and that Dank had not come through and had dudded Hird. Thats why Hird was wanting to have the actual records and not what was discussed and paid for. Obviously even if this was true, his intent was real. 

Not sure if this had been thrown up before as I hadnt kept up with the thread.

 

Franky, every possible variation of everything has been offered up in this saga.

The story you were told is a fairy story designed by apologists to protect Hird. "It was all above board but Dank took the money and ran."

There are variations on the fairy story even. Such as, Dank knew all along "the good stuff" was prohibited but had EFC pay for it and then on sold it to bikies while injecting the players with vitamins. "It wasn't above board but Dank led Hird to believe it was. And took the money and ran."

We'll probably never know the actual true story, until some player on their death bed spills what they know. (It won't vary too much from what we think happened.)

It took how many years for Percy Jones to spill the beans on some minor scandal at Carlton.

[John Crow Batty 8,255]

17 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:

Franky, every possible variation of everything has been offered up in this saga.

The story you were told is a fairy story designed by apologists to protect Hird. "It was all above board but Dank took the money and ran."

There are variations on the fairy story even. Such as, Dank knew all along "the good stuff" was prohibited but had EFC pay for it and then on sold it to bikies while injecting the players with vitamins. "It wasn't above board but Dank led Hird to believe it was. And took the money and ran."

We'll probably never know the actual true story, until some player on their death bed spills what they know. (It won't vary too much from what we think happened.)

It took how many years for Percy Jones to spill the beans on some minor scandal at Carlton.

I don't think injecting players with saline or vitamins makes them overnight muscle bound running robots nor causes the plague of soft tissue injuries many later suffered.

Edited January 13, 2017 by america de cali

[daisycutter 28,507]

45 minutes ago, america de cali said:

I don't think injecting players with saline or vitamins makes them overnight muscle bound running robots nor causes the plague of soft tissue injuries many later suffered.

i wouldn't put it past dank to have injected them with more than tb4. i reckon he was probably out of control and wanted results no matter what. only dank really knows what he injected and he's never going to tell the true story

[xarronn 380]

13 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not going to derail this thread so will only comment on this once and won't respond.

i am not privy to the structure of the Essendon football club. But I doubt very much Hird, a coach who had no previous coaching experience was the head of every department and responsible for all their practises within the club.

Hird claims he agreed to a cutting edge programme within the rules. All the players signed a waiver that clearly stated the programme must be within WADA rules and not detrimental to any players health.

Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering.

The Government at the time were calling it "the blackest day in Australian sport" well before there was any evidence. The AFL stood side by side with the Government in the press conference. At that stage it was political. Someone was always going to hang.

Essendon could have cheated much more than any of us know. There are no records so how can we tell? The fact they have no records cannot be Hird's fault alone. Every piece of electronically stored and transferred data has a record. The fact this cannot be found suggests to me that it is much bigger than just being hidden on James Hird's laptop. This to me is the key. Again without being privy to the structures within the club I doubt Goodwin is responsible to oversee the integrity of Missions work at Melbourne.

The fact Bomber Thompson got these people to the club while director of coaching and yet seems unscathed suggests to me Hird is a scapegoat.

There are so still so many questions and yet so little answers I just think Hird is the fall guy. 

Wrecker 45, I am responding to your statement bolded above.

America de Calli had already made the point below:

"How can you believe he is the scapegoat when just about everyone else in positions of responsibility at Essendon were sacked or resigned swiftly? It took untill the bitter end and millions of dollars in his pocket  to get Hird out of the club".

However Wrecker45, you  responded to his post as though you didn't read it, so I am again rebutting your statement that: "Hird could have handled it better but I truly think he his a pawn that the AFL needed to hang everything on. Particularly, after he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering".

You are again ignoring all the other casualties at the club which were mentioned by AdC, you are ignoring the fact that Essendon was fined $2 mill, you are ignoring that it lost draft picks, you are ignoring that the players were suspended for 12 months, (albeit by a WADA tribunal) and retired players had to step aside from coaching and other positions. You are ignoring the fact that the club is shelling out millions in compensation to the players. You are ignoring that Watson has lost his Brownlow.

Hird himself resigned as coach before the player suspensions because the players were no longer performing for him. This was not a penalty imposed by the AFL.

He kept going to independent courts and losing, so how can he be a pawn of the AFL.

After all this, how then is he the scapegoat that the AFL needed to hang everything on? You yourself say"he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering". So he was offered a slap on the wrist but 'he is a scapegoat"? (I know you say it happened because he wouldn't accept the slap, but that is still contradictory).

Hird is just one of the many and continuing casualties of this program. By definition if there are so many other casualties, Hird cannot be a scapegoat

As it happens, my view is also that he didn't intend to break the rules, but that is not a defense when the rules were broken under his watch and as a result of a program he instituted. He had responsibilities and he amongst others had to be accountable, - the Cronulla coach copped a suspension, what penalty did Hird get from the AFL which was worse? 

[Pink Freud 325]

Canst thou not minister to a mind diseased,
Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles of the brain
And with some sweet oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuffed bosom of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?

Therein the patient must minister to himself.

[rjay 23,901]

8 hours ago, xarronn said:

After all this, how then is he the scapegoat that the AFL needed to hang everything on? You yourself say"he wouldn't cop the slap on the wrist they were offering". So he was offered a slap on the wrist but 'he is a scapegoat"? (I know you say it happened because he wouldn't accept the slap, but that is still contradictory).

He did wrong no doubt about it. He was the man in charge who either implemented the program or was ignorant of it, he had to fall on his sword.

He wouldn't accept being the scapegoat although I have no doubt the AFL where setting him up to be it. They had a couple of things on their agenda here.

One too them being there own culpability in the whole affair. They knew it was going on and did nothing to stop it apart from a quiet word.

If Hird had have gone along with it the whole saga would have ended years ago and he would probably still be coaching EFC.

So yes he was at fault as was the AFL, they wanted him to lie down and he wouldn't. I also think the AFLPA have gotten away lightly here.

[dieter 3,325]

2 hours ago, Pink Freud said:

Canst thou not minister to a mind diseased,
Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles of the brain
And with some sweet oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuffed bosom of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?

Therein the patient must minister to himself.

Which AC/DC song is this from?

[John Crow Batty 8,255]

35 minutes ago, rjay said:

He did wrong no doubt about it. He was the man in charge who either implemented the program or was ignorant of it, he had to fall on his sword.

He wouldn't accept being the scapegoat although I have no doubt the AFL where setting him up to be it. They had a couple of things on their agenda here.

One too them being there own culpability in the whole affair. They knew it was going on and did nothing to stop it apart from a quiet word.

If Hird had have gone along with it the whole saga would have ended years ago and he would probably still be coaching EFC.

So yes he was at fault as was the AFL, they wanted him to lie down and he wouldn't. I also think the AFLPA have gotten away lightly here.

Though the AFL must share some of the blame for their policing of the drug culture they are no different to every other sporting organisation. Money talks and conflict of interest is everywhere aside from the difficult practical task of effective policing of drugs in sport. Sporting bodies can never be trusted to do the right thing and the AFL is no different. It is a difficult almost insurmountable problem with the cheats having the tactical advantage and always one jump ahead of the authorities who may be complicit or not. I am quite confident similar undetected  outrages have occured at other clubs but at least now a reluctant line in the sand has been drawn thanks to the dogged work of ASADA. 

But calling Hird a scapegoat is like calling Hitler a scapegoat for the excesses of the Third Reich.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by america de cali

[beelzebub 22,225]

There is the question of intent. Some suggest  Hird did NOT intend to cheat.. I fail to understand how he did not.. From the outset he wished to explore the "grey areas" , find a loop hole, find something that wasnt outlawed. He was more than happy to flirt in areas of the unknown, indeed employ those who specialised in the "unknown" ...or not -to -be- discovered. He was looking for that edge, that advantage over other teams.  In and of itself to find advantages is not verbotten but to do so on the other side of the fence is.. Golden Boy's black ops  was not only over the fence but in a hut ( no one knows ) with shaded windows.

How this is not cheating is anyone's guess. ASADA thought it was naughty. The AFL just didnt want to know.

[Willmoy1947 3,772]

Lets go a little bit further with this situation. It's not hard  to see that there now is open friction between a powerful Club, with their group, and the AFL. It is almost as if something has triggered this and i think it has to run its course. I think TWSNBN has spat the dummy and is about to take on the Hierarchy. Good luck with that.Going by the rags this morning it is tantamount to open warfare between the "House of lords" 

Peanuts and chips anyone!!!

[beelzebub 22,225]

I'll  get the beers !! 

[beelzebub 22,225]

To me it's interesting how things are twisted, to suit.

Danny boy's utterance " A great champion reduced to this " is not without merit. It's essentially truthful. Hird, a brilliant player in his day is now what he is.

But Danny, please don't lose sight of the who and how of fault here....here's a hint JAH

[picket fence 15,132]

13 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

To me it's interesting how things are twisted, to suit.

Danny boy's utterance " A great champion reduced to this " is not without merit. It's essentially truthful. Hird, a brilliant player in his day is now what he is.

But Danny, please don't lose sight of the who and how of fault here....here's a hint JAH

LOL Danny Corcoran another acolyte who has his head in the sand. Hows this gem in the HUN this morning " As for Hird, Corcoran said, punishment was warranted but not a life sentence" well if this is the case Danny why then does he not apologise for the warranted punishmnent??? Therin lies the TRUE problem he cant and won't because of his Ego problems!

Sad, arrogant, people all who were involved!  Don't have to look for scapegoats, there aren't any .... just look in the mirror and the truth is right there if you can handle it!

[daisycutter 28,507]

michael warner seems to be taking over slobbo's chief cheer-leader and mud-slinger role. i remember there was scuttlebutt that previously the afl had threatened him with loss of afl media accreditation. is slobbo on holidays?

[buck_nekkid 5,480]

This whole EFC thing is a joke.  The Board is ultimately responsible from an organizational point of view for setting the culture and allowing stuff to happen with poor oversight.  The CEO carries the can as responsible executive.  As an analogy, poor Jimmy Hird is just the confused 'sales manager' promoted above his capability.  He was a great sales rep, but a crap sales manager.  He had no idea that everyone else was doing all sorts of stuff.  He is, however, accountable for his actions and those of his direct reports.  At a minimum his lack of awareness and ability to ask simple questions of what was occurring is astounding.

He had a lovely trip to INSEAD to do a management course whilst everyone else copped the heat.  Even there he failed to learn about responsibility and governance.  Little Jimmy sales manager was happy to take credit for the results, but had no clue about anything else.

Speaks of over-promotion and under preparation of JAH.  The whole EFC needed a revolutionary clean out (Bellamys is having the same thing happen now).  However, the lack of ownership and accountability of all involved (even the GIll-fish and Vlad) is most galling.  Blame everyone else and take no responsibility.  Play the victim.  Defend the victim.  Enough.  They should have been put out of business, not have turned over half their list by the time sanctions rolled around, got first prize in the beauty contest (draft pick #1) and be ready to move into the 8 already.

The AFL have a lot to answer for, letting the EFC get away with the equivalent of trading (morally) insolvent.  The destruction of records is a willful, criminal act.  The 'heads up' given to EFC by the AFL is complicit.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Buck. Interesting analogy. I would suggest however Albert was more than aware of what was going on.....having instigated it !! 

[John Crow Batty 8,255]

Liam Pickering gets involved.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/former-afl-player-lashes-out-at-james-hirds-treatment/news-story/a632b43a64fcd8e7f9537bbe64133f49

[beelzebub 22,225]

Pickering......pffffffft

The epitome of ethics !!!

[SaberFang 7,141]

Herald Sun in overdrive taking advantage of the whole situation by running a sustained Hird the Golden Boy narrative. Shockingly transparent stuff.

[old dee 22,850]

44 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Pickering......pffffffft

The epitome of ethics !!!

Exactly bb when I saw his comments I almost lost my lunch His name and ethics hardly go in the same sentence.

[rjay 23,901]

4 hours ago, america de cali said:

Though the AFL must share some of the blame for their policing of the drug culture they are no different to every other sporting organisation. Money talks and conflict of interest is everywhere aside from the difficult practical task of effective policing of drugs in sport. Sporting bodies can never be trusted to do the right thing and the AFL is no different. It is a difficult almost insurmountable problem with the cheats having the tactical advantage and always one jump ahead of the authorities who may be complicit or not. I am quite confident similar undetected  outrages have occured at other clubs but at least now a reluctant line in the sand has been drawn thanks to the dogged work of ASADA. 

But calling Hird a scapegoat is like calling Hitler a scapegoat for the excesses of the Third Reich.

 

 

Scapegoat is probably the wrong word, and don't get me wrong he should have been held accountable.

...but in this case the AFL were aware of the problem very early on and should have stopped it.

To cover their own ineptness they wanted to make Hird the fall guy then move on. Unfortunately for all parties including himself he wouldn't take the fall.

As you say the AFL is like other sporting bodies and can't be trusted to run a clean sport.

I'm as sure as I can be that flags have been won by drug cheats...

As for the Hitler analogy, nice story but not quite so sure it applies here.

Edited January 14, 2017 by rjay
Grammar

[xarronn 380]

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

To me it's interesting how things are twisted, to suit.

Danny boy's utterance " A great champion reduced to this " is not without merit. It's essentially truthful. Hird, a brilliant player in his day is now what he is.

But Danny, please don't lose sight of the who and how of fault here....here's a hint JAH

 

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

LOL Danny Corcoran another acolyte who has his head in the sand. Hows this gem in the HUN this morning " As for Hird, Corcoran said, punishment was warranted but not a life sentence" well if this is the case Danny why then does he not apologise for the warranted punishmnent??? Therin lies the TRUE problem he cant and won't because of his Ego problems!

Sad, arrogant, people all who were involved!  Don't have to look for scapegoats, there aren't any .... just look in the mirror and the truth is right there if you can handle it!

I agree with both posts about Corcoran.

Let's also remember something else, by trying to attribute fault elsewhere, Corcoran is also trying to mitigate his culpability, retrospectively. I'm not sure what he is doing for a buck these days but you can bet it's not as lucrative as his jobs in the footy industry. As they say, always back self-interest even when it seems to be wrapped in a cloak of compassion.

Another thing about Corcoran. He was employed by Melbourne, -  I think as Football Manager when he had a falling out with Sheedy. He brought with him files on possible recruits that the  Essendon recruiting team had collected. He was not entitled to take that Intellectual Property and Essendon took legal action to force him to return it. He was our man at that time but that gives an insight into his character.

 

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

This whole EFC thing is a joke.  The Board is ultimately responsible from an organizational point of view for setting the culture and allowing stuff to happen with poor oversight.  The CEO carries the can as responsible executive.  As an analogy, poor Jimmy Hird is just the confused 'sales manager' promoted above his capability.  He was a great sales rep, but a crap sales manager.  He had no idea that everyone else was doing all sorts of stuff.  He is, however, accountable for his actions and those of his direct reports.  At a minimum his lack of awareness and ability to ask simple questions of what was occurring is astounding.

He had a lovely trip to INSEAD to do a management course whilst everyone else copped the heat.  Even there he failed to learn about responsibility and governance.  Little Jimmy sales manager was happy to take credit for the results, but had no clue about anything else.

Speaks of over-promotion and under preparation of JAH.  The whole EFC needed a revolutionary clean out (Bellamys is having the same thing happen now).  However, the lack of ownership and accountability of all involved (even the GIll-fish and Vlad) is most galling.  Blame everyone else and take no responsibility.  Play the victim.  Defend the victim.  Enough.  They should have been put out of business, not have turned over half their list by the time sanctions rolled around, got first prize in the beauty contest (draft pick #1) and be ready to move into the 8 already.

The AFL have a lot to answer for, letting the EFC get away with the equivalent of trading (morally) insolvent.  The destruction of records is a willful, criminal act.  The 'heads up' given to EFC by the AFL is complicit.

Buck Nekkid, are you not aware of the penalties imposed on the club by the AFL and the fact that all the prominent officials (other than Reid) are gone? How then does your statement that they let them get away with it stand up?

As for the first bolded statement. Australian Football is a very small fish. There is only one Professional body for the sport, - maybe you are happy to cripple the sport and the competition by destroying a club, but I doubt that most people would forgive an AFL commission which permitted that to happen. Time passes quickly, but don't forget this issue has derailed the EFC for 4 years. ( And whilst writing this I remembered that they were kicked out of the 2013 finals, - another club penalty).

Surely there have been enough consequences for Essendon to both penalise that club and to educate and deter future infractions from all clubs, - at least for a decade.

 

[biggestred 4,294]

Their whole club should have been banned last year.

34 players guilty?

Club instigated and lead doping regime?

Losing 12 players, picking up 10 others and getting pick 1 wasnt much of a punishment.

Whatever happened to "2 athletes in a team guilty = team suspension"?

 

Lets not forget the previous punishments were for "bringing the game into disrepute" because they had no records...

Edited January 14, 2017 by biggestred