5 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

This is a response to all of those who are astronomically simplifying an incredibly complex situation by stating what they think the players 'should' have done after much of the evidence was brought to light, years later.

To take any form of moral high-ground without having physically been in the situation that those players were in is [censored] insane. By far the easiest thing to do is to say, 'questions should have been asked there and then'.

This is a Melbourne supporter forum talking about an opposition club and it's players. Is it any wonder the overwhelming number of opposition supporters point the blame at the Essendon players? Any at all?

I refuse to respond after this, again because of the complexity the situation that clearly many posters are oblivious of.

Below is the four corners interview with Hal Hunter, a former Essendon rookie. Some of you should have a watch before sitting back from your ego-strong standpoint and pointing the finger at players who were masterfully manipulated and betrayed by a handful of people. 

That's enough from me.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/03/21/4426753.htm

 

 

steve, I understand your point. There was manipulation and betrayal. We accept that but you are taking excuses to an extreme

Let me just say this. There were a large number of players, from rookies like hunter to experienced leaders like jobe. There were 34 players (and if you believe hird maybe more). Of all this number, not one did an independent check nor raised the matter with anyone outside the clique. Not one consulted with the long standing and respected club doctor, reid. Not one player disclosed the injections (and other stuff) on the asada drug testing forms.

Now i can accept some being duped or careless or too trustworthy, but all 34 and on numerous occasions, despite all the wada education they were given? That scale of omission is just not acceptable and cannot be simply brushed aside with your arguments

4 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

This is a response to all of those who are astronomically simplifying an incredibly complex situation by stating what they think the players 'should' have done after much of the evidence was brought to light, years later.

To take any form of moral high-ground without having physically been in the situation that those players were in is [censored] insane. By far the easiest thing to do is to say, 'questions should have been asked there and then'.

This is a Melbourne supporter forum talking about an opposition club and it's players. Is it any wonder the overwhelming number of opposition supporters point the blame at the Essendon players? Any at all?

I refuse to respond after this, again because of the complexity the situation that clearly many posters are oblivious to.

Below is the four corners interview with Hal Hunter, a former Essendon rookie. Some of you should have a watch before sitting back from your ego-strong standpoint and pointing the finger at players who were masterfully manipulated and betrayed by a handful of people. 

That's enough from me.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/03/21/4426753.htm

 

 

And it sounds to me as though you're giving them the benefit of the doubt because Jobe is your mate.

To attend to your points:

Timing: People have been saying the players should have disclosed the thymo ever since that evidence was brought to light. This only happened when CAS heard that evidence and it was reported on. This was last year I think. So this is hardly a new point, and not a stance one could have taken anyway until that evidence was heard. This evidence to me, nullifies the 'players as victims' narrative, which didn't happen until much later in the story (ie CAS, not the ASADA investigation and subsequent AFL ruling).

Morality: If your argument is that you can only make a moral judgement when you have direct physical experience with a matter, then almost no moral or ethical debate could take place on any topic.

Tribalism: I don't deny that people may be biased towards Essendon players because they barrack for other teams, but if arguments are presented logically and with evidence, they can be considered and discussed. To discount a poster's opinion because of their football team is absurd. Every person who's weighed in on this follows Essendon or an opposition team. You evaluate their bias based on their posts or discussions, there's no other way to do it, otherwise the debate isn't had at all. And I think it's a debate that needs to be had because of the inconsistencies of the way the media has treated these men.

Response: Chose not to respond if you wish, your call.

Hal Hunter: The Hunter example shows that players were treated differently. Heppell says he knows what he took. Hunter, not only says he doesn't know, but attempted to sue to get medical records. I don't for a second doubt that there was manipulation of the players. But don't think that excuses them entirely from the blame.

 

I'm not out on a player witch hunt here. I'm essentially saying 2 things:

1 - The players are partially culpable, as evidenced by their ASADA disclosures

2 - The media treatment of them is sickeningly soft (actually this applies to the EFC too, the media has been very soft on the club).

Love to know if anyone can go in and out of the Ozz with a conviction, unencumbered, and work as well.

Its actually really simple if you look at it through a prism of they did it on purpose.

Everything since has just been lies and people believing the lie except wada/asada

 

Jobe Watson - guilty of theft by deception (Brownlow) - guilty of using PED's - guilty of lying when giving evidence - National hero FMD 

I like Jobe Watson. Don't think there's too much wrong with the way his return is being presented.

Those players copped a fair wack for doing what they were told by people they trusted. They could've done their own homework and avoided the situation and they've paid a fair, if not harsh price for it.

5 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Knowing Jobe personally, I'm over reading posts like this and haven't commented a great deal about the saga because some minds are impenetrable.

Dank and Hird were the perpetrators with the players being lead to believe that everything being administered was legal and the players signed consent forms stating the program was ASADA approved. It was leading edge and they were the first club to run the program.

If anyone has been involved in any form of elite sport, you'd know that supplement programs are a big part of preparation, recovery and performance. No doubting this was really pushing the boundaries but to reiterate, if you're an elite level athlete who is used to supplement programs and have been told that you're about to be partaking in a program to help reach your physical potential and that everything was legal, why would you question it?

Although it might sound an odd/simplistic analogy, I wonder for instance how many of those who have taken an Ecstasy pill would know what else (other than MDMA) is cut to make up that pill, and that they'd therefore be consuming. Of course MDMA is present. But I assure you it's not only MDMA. Ketamine, broken glass, Caffeine, Meth and plenty of trace amounts of other substances.

The same can be said for the players who partook in the supplements program. A football club is not a Chemistry lab. And I highly doubt anyone who has even taken any sort of pre or post recovery drink really has an understanding of what it is they're consuming. Dank was trusted. Hird trusted Dank. And Dr Bruce Reid was the only one who began raising concerns about what was going on at a later date.

I dislike Essendon a lot. But not because of this. Two people out of an entire club have caused this.

A professional athlete is responsible for what goes into their body. Furthermore they didn't disclose what they were taking to ASADA.

Spin it anyway you like. The players are equally responsible and i have zero sympathy for any of them.

Maybe the thread/tooic didn't need to be started at all, the issue has been done to death in at least 3 other topics

1 hour ago, Choke said:

And it sounds to me as though you're giving them the benefit of the doubt because Jobe is your mate.

To attend to your points:

Timing: People have been saying the players should have disclosed the thymo ever since that evidence was brought to light. This only happened when CAS heard that evidence and it was reported on. This was last year I think. So this is hardly a new point, and not a stance one could have taken anyway until that evidence was heard. This evidence to me, nullifies the 'players as victims' narrative, which didn't happen until much later in the story (ie CAS, not the ASADA investigation and subsequent AFL ruling).

Morality: If your argument is that you can only make a moral judgement when you have direct physical experience with a matter, then almost no moral or ethical debate could take place on any topic.

Tribalism: I don't deny that people may be biased towards Essendon players because they barrack for other teams, but if arguments are presented logically and with evidence, they can be considered and discussed. To discount a poster's opinion because of their football team is absurd. Every person who's weighed in on this follows Essendon or an opposition team. You evaluate their bias based on their posts or discussions, there's no other way to do it, otherwise the debate isn't had at all. And I think it's a debate that needs to be had because of the inconsistencies of the way the media has treated these men.

Response: Chose not to respond if you wish, your call.

Hal Hunter: The Hunter example shows that players were treated differently. Heppell says he knows what he took. Hunter, not only says he doesn't know, but attempted to sue to get medical records. I don't for a second doubt that there was manipulation of the players. But don't think that excuses them entirely from the blame.

 

I'm not out on a player witch hunt here. I'm essentially saying 2 things:

1 - The players are partially culpable, as evidenced by their ASADA disclosures

2 - The media treatment of them is sickeningly soft (actually this applies to the EFC too, the media has been very soft on the club).

I suspect that it is only in AFL footy, where there are so many tribal loyalties together with marketing sell that we have had such a soft approach to the players. Sure they have served their time but the hands off approach from the AFL and media is a construct and an attempt to minimise the damage. 

21 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Maybe the thread/tooic didn't need to be started at all, the issue has been done to death in at least 3 other topics

No Saty this topic needs to keep being discussed until those at its centre recognise their total abrogation of responsibility.

When that occurs we can gather the lessons learnt and move on.

We and certainly the EFC and the AFL are not there yet by a long margin.

29 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Maybe the thread/tooic didn't need to be started at all, the issue has been done to death in at least 3 other topics

Take your point but this is what bringing the game into disrepute means, in practical terms.

 

Fours years later and we're still burning about their attempt to cheat their way to flag.

You knew you were on a hiding to nothng making that post Steve  

I do have a level of sympathy for the players and for your standpoint on where the blame lies. I appreciate that this whole incident points to the potential dangers of club culture.

My sympathy for the players diminished however after the CAS findings, particularly regarding the players' lack of disclosure on doping control forms and general negligence. It's just too much to ignore.

They've served their time for what were largely gross errors of judgement. That is the end of the matter for me. What I can't stomach is the marching parade welcome back. As Choke says, these guys aren't heroes. I personally don't consider them to be villains either, but they sure as hell aren't heroes. 

This must be the only country in the world that worships it's sports drug cheats!!! It's appalling by media in this country.  It just make me sick to watch all this huge love in with drug cheats in the AFL.  Where are the solid media who have the balls to call it for what it is.  

3 minutes ago, Soidee said:

This must be the only country in the world that worships it's sports drug cheats!!! It's appalling by media in this country.  It just make me sick to watch all this huge love in with drug cheats in the AFL.  Where are the solid media who have the balls to call it for what it is.  

Who's the most prominent drug cheat in Oz sport?

 

Warnie.

 

And where's he?

Oh yes. Still national hero.

Coz Aussies don't cheat, you see. It was all some kind of mistake.

1 hour ago, ManDee said:

Jobe Watson - guilty of theft by deception (Brownlow) - guilty of using PED's - guilty of lying when giving evidence - National hero FMD 

And not overly bright!!! 

WTF would you go to America to learn how to make coffee? FMD!

Every type I tried over there - from Starbucks to some greasy diner - tasted like watered down Alpaca [censored].

15 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

And not overly bright!!! 

WTF would you go to America to learn how to make coffee? FMD!

Every type I tried over there - from Starbucks to some greasy diner - tasted like watered down Alpaca [censored].

 Caffeine addict?

CEO of EFC just reported as saying that Watson's decision to return to the club "is as close as they have ever been to closure on this matter."

They don't get it !!

1 minute ago, Diamond_Jim said:

CEO of EFC just reported as saying that Watson's decision to return to the club "is as close as they have ever been to closure on this matter."

They don't get it !!

It won't be forgotten because of quotes like that. 

Hand in your Medal Jab....

1 hour ago, P-man said:

You knew you were on a hiding to nothng making that post Steve  

I do have a level of sympathy for the players and for your standpoint on where the blame lies. I appreciate that this whole incident points to the potential dangers of club culture.

My sympathy for the players diminished however after the CAS findings, particularly regarding the players' lack of disclosure on doping control forms and general negligence. It's just too much to ignore.

They've served their time for what were largely gross errors of judgement. That is the end of the matter for me. What I can't stomach is the marching parade welcome back. As Choke says, these guys aren't heroes. I personally don't consider them to be villains either, but they sure as hell aren't heroes. 

Summed up my feelings on the matter as well.

I won't refer to them as "drug cheats" - I don't think their intention was to cheat.  I think they cocked up majorly and attempted to cover their arses by lying, so the penalty was in the vicinity of fair, but I don't think their initial intent, when participating in the supplements program, was malicious.  

Others will disagree, but I'm not going to debate it any further.  I'll leave that for those who are passionate on the subject.

26 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Summed up my feelings on the matter as well.

I won't refer to them as "drug cheats" - I don't think their intention was to cheat.  I think they cocked up majorly and attempted to cover their arses by lying, so the penalty was in the vicinity of fair, but I don't think their initial intent, when participating in the supplements program, was malicious.  

Others will disagree, but I'm not going to debate it any further.  I'll leave that for those who are passionate on the subject.

If there intention was not to cheat using "The Good Stuff" what was there intention?

Going offsite for an injection regime "Black Ops" style can only be one intention. 

But our Media welcomes back the heroes.....

9 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Knowing Jobe personally, I'm over reading posts like this and haven't commented a great deal about the saga because some minds are impenetrable.

Dank and Hird were the perpetrators with the players being lead to believe that everything being administered was legal and the players signed consent forms stating the program was ASADA approved. It was leading edge and they were the first club to run the program.

If anyone has been involved in any form of elite sport, you'd know that supplement programs are a big part of preparation, recovery and performance. No doubting this was really pushing the boundaries but to reiterate, if you're an elite level athlete who is used to supplement programs and have been told that you're about to be partaking in a program to help reach your physical potential and that everything was legal, why would you question it?

Although it might sound an odd/simplistic analogy, I wonder for instance how many of those who have taken an Ecstasy pill would know what else (other than MDMA) is cut to make up that pill, and that they'd therefore be consuming. Of course MDMA is present. But I assure you it's not only MDMA. Ketamine, broken glass, Caffeine, Meth and plenty of trace amounts of other substances.

The same can be said for the players who partook in the supplements program. A football club is not a Chemistry lab. And I highly doubt anyone who has even taken any sort of pre or post recovery drink really has an understanding of what it is they're consuming. Dank was trusted. Hird trusted Dank. And Dr Bruce Reid was the only one who began raising concerns about what was going on at a later date.

I dislike Essendon a lot. But not because of this. Two people out of an entire club have caused this.

Why didn't they list the substances they knew by name (from text messages) on their ASADA statement forms if they thought all was above board? Why did they not talk about the substances with the club doctor? Why did the worlds largest court on drugs in sport find against them? 

The Asada/Afl drug code is simple, you are responsible for what goes into your body, if you don't check it and it is likely to be a banned substance you are banned. 

I know a lot of pro athletes too and they are incredulous at the way our media is fauning over the Essendon players and so desperate to give them excuses.

Maybe your personal relationship has clouded your judgement, or maybe you should lay off the ecstasy, it is an illegal drug after all...

21 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

No Saty this topic needs to keep being discussed until those at its centre recognise their total abrogation of responsibility.

When that occurs we can gather the lessons learnt and move on.

We and certainly the EFC and the AFL are not there yet by a long margin.

Does the term 'when hell freezes over" ring any bells because that is when maybe the real people responsible for whole shambles will accept responsibility 

MFC were accused and found guilty of tanking, which in a way is cheating, so the old adage of glass houses etc, we have moved on so EFC and their players should be allowed to as well

7 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

This is a response to all of those who are astronomically simplifying an incredibly complex situation by stating what they think the players 'should' have done after much of the evidence was brought to light, years later.

To take any form of moral high-ground without having physically been in the situation that those players were in is [censored] insane. By far the easiest thing to do is to say, 'questions should have been asked there and then'.

This is a Melbourne supporter forum talking about an opposition club and it's players. Is it any wonder the overwhelming number of opposition supporters point the blame at the Essendon players? Any at all?

I refuse to respond after this, again because of the complexity the situation that clearly many posters are oblivious to.

Below is the four corners interview with Hal Hunter, a former Essendon rookie. Some of you should have a watch before sitting back from your ego-strong standpoint and pointing the finger at players who were masterfully manipulated and betrayed by a handful of people. 

That's enough from me.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/03/21/4426753.htm

 

 

Don't you think that upon finding out that what he'd taken was illegal he'd just accept the punishment?

Irrespective of whether he's a friend of yours ot not, do you think he should benefit from the taking of drugs, innocently or otherwise? 

If an athlete at the Olympic games is given illegal drugs by his coach and wins a gold medal because of the performance enhancing effects of that drug, should he keep the medal. The rules are there to protect the integrity of the sport, so athletes can't rely on the, "it wasn't my fault, I didn't know" excuse.

He was, according to Sheedy, almost going to get the chop from the club and then he turns in to some superstar, even his father thought he was having a late growth spurt.

I'va said you get your head shot off if you stick it up over the parapet, well that's not true if your argument has merit.

 

 

 

 

I thought the drug thing was bad enough, but today I saw him wearing a 'feminism' hat.

Cringe.

5 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

And not overly bright!!! 

WTF would you go to America to learn how to make coffee? FMD!

Every type I tried over there - from Starbucks to some greasy diner - tasted like watered down Alpaca [censored].

Melbourne style cafes serving Melb style coffees are massive in NYC ATM. Huge untapped market. I think Jab worked at Hugh Jackoff's cafe in NYC. When I say 'worked' he apparently did a few shifts and didn't stick it out.

I don't mind the occasional watered down alpaca [censored], especially with a biscuit.