Elite Status

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

37 minutes ago, P-man said:

They lack currency and overall relevance to me. I would also seriously question their criteria when looking at some of their rankings over recent years.

Yeh, it's an intriguing set up but a lot of it focuses around participation in scoring chains I think, but I don't really know much about it. 

 

I I would like them to do a season by season update but also this two year rolling window, would be good to see the form players at current, especially in their positions. 

[dee-tox 4,835]

Potentially. I think Hunt is the one. Has elite, AFL characteristics. Could take two seasons though.

Gawn the only one now although I suspect every club would want Jack Viney playing for them.

[Josh 1,420]

For me it's about midfield rotations and forwards.

 

In a few year's Gawn Petracca Brayshaw and Oliver start in the middle has the potential to be A+ but what separates the good teams from the great teams is the rotations and Viney Tyson and Salem could be just as good, happy days.

Hogan and Weideman (hasn't played a game I know) potentially could be enough.

Im not convinced you need All Australian backman, perhaps back flankers which I think we lack but thats where 2 or 3 of your resting midsnline up, for me mids and forwards are where the game is won and lost.

 

Our only problem now is (apart from Viney) this is all still "potentially" elite

Edited June 21, 2016 by Josh

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

3 hours ago, dee-tox said:

Potentially. I think Hunt is the one. Has elite, AFL characteristics. Could take two seasons though.

Gawn the only one now although I suspect every club would want Jack Viney playing for them.

This the other factor on elite that intrigues me, AFL charecteristics such as speed, endurance, strength, leap etc can be used to describe AFL players.

Hunt clearly has elite level AFL speed and agility, but does that mean that he could eventually be classified as an elite player or just a player with elite physical attributes. Obviously there is potential for both to occur but would you describe a player as elite if he has elite athletic capabilities?

[dee-tox 4,835]

1 hour ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

This the other factor on elite that intrigues me, AFL charecteristics such as speed, endurance, strength, leap etc can be used to describe AFL players.

Hunt clearly has elite level AFL speed and agility, but does that mean that he could eventually be classified as an elite player or just a player with elite physical attributes. Obviously there is potential for both to occur but would you describe a player as elite if he has elite athletic capabilities?

It's the trifecta of pace, courage and hands for me. The pace is well documented. I fear for Hunt's slight frame sometimes. He cracks in beyond his age and experience. And I'll think the more games he plays the more we will appreciate his marking and sure-handedness.

Edited June 21, 2016 by dee-tox

[Maldonboy38 6,406]

Elite sems to imply that the player consistently plays at such a brilliant level that other club fans both love and hate them, and they would find a place in any other team.

Current.     Gawn. Any club would salivate over his current abilities  and match impact.

Very near.  Viney. Contested ball, third and fourth efforts, tackling machine, skills constantly improving, ruthlessly and fealessly stands up for his team mates when theaggression and biffo starts. A Joel Selwood type that coaches, fans and players love.

Potential.   Hogan, Petracca.

Smokey.     Hunt. 

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

23 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

It's the trifecta of pace, courage and hands for me. The pace is well documented. I fear for Hunt's slight frame sometimes. He cracks in beyond his age and experience. And I'll think the more games he plays the more we will appreciate his marking and sure-handedness.

im a big wrap for Hunt, his competitiveness being a major reason he has stood out this year, he definitely needs to clean up his disposal but he can have 400+m gained when not even having massive numbers of the football and this is a really handy attribute. I think he will continue to improve and of course at 21 his best 7-8 years are ahead of him so it will be interesting to see his development over the next couple seasons.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

11 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

Comfortably elite. AA ruck man. Just a dominant force. Very underrated ruck man IMO.

He is widely considered in the top 2 of the comp... how can you be any higher rated?? he hasnt done it long enough to be considered a legend... Wait another 40 years and imagine having that beard imortalised outside the MCG! Ahead of myself? how do you mean?

 

 

9 hours ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

Yeh, it's an intriguing set up but a lot of it focuses around participation in scoring chains I think, but I don't really know much about it. 

 

I I would like them to do a season by season update but also this two year rolling window, would be good to see the form players at current, especially in their positions. 

FWIW the new article on the "Numbers that matter" article on the AFL site has 3 player ratings averages from each club for this year alone (among other stats). Gawn is 9th AFL wide with 16.8/game, Viney is 24th with 14.8/game and TMac is 59th with 13.4 who is also 5th in the comp with 7.8 spoils per game.

Some very interesting stats in that artticle. Tommy bugg has our highest inside 50 efficency at 67%, need it in his hand going forward more often! CP5 is up there with 6.6/game scoring involvements and assists 1.4/game for a young kid thats super impressive, when he gets it things happen.

[dazzledavey36 55,347]

Does anyone know whats Jayden Hunt's endurance like? Would really love to see him push onto a wing next year full time and become a but like Isaac Smith.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

7 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

He is widely considered in the top 2 of the comp... how can you be any higher rated?? he hasnt done it long enough to be considered a legend... Wait another 40 years and imagine having that beard imortalised outside the MCG! Ahead of myself? how do you mean?
 

Well I think he'd be in the top 3 brownlow polling atm, and I would have him ahead of Goldy for AA ruck.

[nutbean 8,838]

13 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Some very interesting stats in that artticle. Tommy bugg has our highest inside 50 efficency at 67%, need it in his hand going forward more often! CP5 is up there with 6.6/game scoring involvements and assists 1.4/game for a young kid thats super impressive, when he gets it things happen.

This is where I sometimes scratch my head on statistics - I like Bugg's hardness and what he brings to the team but my eyes tell me that his efficiency is just ok. 

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

9 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

FWIW the new article on the "Numbers that matter" article on the AFL site has 3 player ratings averages from each club for this year alone (among other stats). Gawn is 9th AFL wide with 16.8/game, Viney is 24th with 14.8/game and TMac is 59th with 13.4 who is also 5th in the comp with 7.8 spoils per game.
 

Yeh, i just finished reading this and it was quite interesting. I would assume that would put all 3 in the elite bracket for their individual positions, but who knows.

Would love access to the stats of every player, but I dont think there is a way you can pay for them off champion data.

Regardless, makes sense really that the 3 players pushing to be elite would be them with Hogan pushing to be our 4th

 

[mo64 5,881]

2 hours ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

This the other factor on elite that intrigues me, AFL charecteristics such as speed, endurance, strength, leap etc can be used to describe AFL players.

Hunt clearly has elite level AFL speed and agility, but does that mean that he could eventually be classified as an elite player or just a player with elite physical attributes. Obviously there is potential for both to occur but would you describe a player as elite if he has elite athletic capabilities?

Hunt's physical characteristics remind me of a young Tingay, but that's where the comparison ends. Hunt's disposal skills and football brain are miles off elite level, and can't see him bridging the gap.

Players who become elite generally have all the tools when they enter the AFL, but lack consistency or physical capabilities. The exception are ruckmen, who don't normally mature till their mid 20's.

Gawn, Hogan, Brayshaw and Petracca are the current players that have the potential to become elite.

[Chris 2,892]

Not a lot of love for Jetta in this, he is clearly under rated by the comp and it seems by his own supporters. He is clearly among the best small defenders in the game. 

Maybe it is just that there is not much appreciation or romance around small defenders. 

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

8 minutes ago, Chris said:

Not a lot of love for Jetta in this, he is clearly under rated by the comp and it seems by his own supporters. He is clearly among the best small defenders in the game. 

Maybe it is just that there is not much appreciation or romance around small defenders. 

Jetta defensive actions are awesome, but when looking at small defenders their output offensively is what sets the good apart from the elite. Someone like Heath Shaw who not only takes the most dangerous small forward but provides offensively is undoubtedly elite, whereas Jetta who lacks offensive drive will not push towards the elite category, IMO. That is not to say that he is not an important player in our backline or our best 22.

[Maldonboy38 6,406]

5 minutes ago, Chris said:

Not a lot of love for Jetta in this, he is clearly under rated by the comp and it seems by his own supporters. He is clearly among the best small defenders in the game. 

Maybe it is just that there is not much appreciation or romance around small defenders. 

Not underrated at all by me. I spoke to him for about 20 mins at a club function about 5 years ago, just when he had major shoulder surgery. I became a real fan of his then and was disappointed when he was rookie listed. He has been a real gem under Roos' leadership a d he is definitely one of th best small defenders in the game.

I just don't consider hom elite. 

[Chris 2,892]

3 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

Jetta defensive actions are awesome, but when looking at small defenders their output offensively is what sets the good apart from the elite. Someone like Heath Shaw who not only takes the most dangerous small forward but provides offensively is undoubtedly elite, whereas Jetta who lacks offensive drive will not push towards the elite category, IMO. That is not to say that he is not an important player in our backline or our best 22.

Watch a bit closer, while not to the same level as Shaw, Jetta is involved at the start of a lot of our rebounds, be it through a side step and handpass or a 20-30m dash and then deliver. He has come forward in that aspect massively int eh last 2 years, as has his whole game. 

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

Watch a bit closer, while not to the same level as Shaw, Jetta is involved at the start of a lot of our rebounds, be it through a side step and handpass or a 20-30m dash and then deliver. He has come forward in that aspect massively int eh last 2 years, as has his whole game. 

He has definitely improved and you will find no arguments from anyone in that, but the fact that he is averaging 14 disposals a game this year compared to other smaller defenders (Heath Shaw 26, Sam Docherty 25, Jasper Pittard 24) is why he will not push into elite consideration. This is a comp wide status for small defenders and in my opinion he is above average but not elite

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

56 minutes ago, nutbean said:

This is where I sometimes scratch my head on statistics - I like Bugg's hardness and what he brings to the team but my eyes tell me that his efficiency is just ok. 

Yeah ik the feeling but while some stats lie (DE for one) I think ones like i50 efficency doesnt. If we are scoring nearly 70% of the time he kicks it in he is either hitting targets or putting it in dangerous spots. Both of which i am happy with.

54 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

Would love access to the stats of every player, but I dont think there is a way you can pay for them off champion data.

 

I know! id love to have full access to everything champion data has, i could waste hours looking at the stuff. It bothers me they only give us the less important stats... i couldnt care less if a player had 30 touches if they didnt have any score involvements or effective i50s. We just dont get to see all that aside from these little articles. Basketball has +/- score for when a player is on the court, i would like to see that sort of thing for clearances, how do we do when Viney is in the centre vs when he is resting, as with Gawn, Jones, Bernie. Love to know scoring efficency to opponent after a 1 on 1 contest. so if Jetta is in a 1 on 1 how likely is it they will score directly after it (pretty low i would think), same with the likes of TMac, OMac, Frosy etc. Could either support or kill some of those McMyths that people have going. 

[deespicable me 1,498]

Hogan has the highest ceiling, no doubt.

He has the most potential and we are seeing glimpses of what he can do in only his second full season. 

In the third quarter of the Queens Birthday match against Collingwood there was a period of time, almost 15 minutes where even though we were 20 odd points up the game was in the balance. The ball was going from one end to the other, there were mistakes, turnovers and missed shots on goal. The game was crying out for someone to do something special, inspiring.

Hogan in a four minute period took a beautiful contested mark on the wing against three Collingwood forgetables, then another contested mark 35 metres out and slots the goal. Game over. I'll never forget it. That for me was his arrival as someone who can win a game off his own boot. 

Hogan is our potential champ, his good although not consistent is as good as Melbourne Footy Club has seen since Neitz and I think he can be better. He is the major reason we are scoring more and gaining respect as a team capable of beating top level teams in the comp. Full forwards are like the lead singer in a rock'n'roll band. You can have a great drummer and a really great lead guitarist etc but your nothing without the lead singer.

Hogan has all that. He has swagger, self belief and the desire to win. Underestimate him at your peril, he is at the very top of any of these lists you care to make up.

By a mile.

[Moonshadow 17,677]

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Hunt's physical characteristics remind me of a young Tingay, but that's where the comparison ends. Hunt's disposal skills and football brain are miles off elite level, and can't see him bridging the gap.

Players who become elite generally have all the tools when they enter the AFL, but lack consistency or physical capabilities. The exception are ruckmen, who don't normally mature till their mid 20's.

Gawn, Hogan, Brayshaw and Petracca are the current players that have the potential to become elite.

Not Viney?

I think Jetta could be the smokey.

[H_T 3,049]

17 hours ago, stuie said:

Anybody here seen or read "Watchmen"?

Discussing imaginary meaningless grades of players is as nourishing to the intellect as a photograph of oxygen to a drowning man.

 

I reckon hell will freeze over before you contribute anything more than meaningless to these forums.

The OP has defined this thread. Contribute or STFU.

Oh and don't bother replying either. 

 

Back to the topic:

Discussion on another thread(s) has discussed 'opinions' on minimum standards for a certain player - Jack Watts. Jack's recent form has been an improvement in most sets of eyes among fans. I'm interested in things such as what would be the new minimum standard for him to reach elite status? 

Thresholds such as the player needs to be 'wanted by most sides in the AFL', doesn't cut it for mine. As I said in my opening post he would need to reach levels such as the top 3% in the AFL. Or the best, most important and influential player at Melbourne. For mine that is 'elite status.' 

Not someone that kicks over 50 goals. 

 

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, H_T said:

I reckon hell will freeze over before you contribute anything more than meaningless to these forums.

The OP has defined this thread. Contribute or STFU.

Oh and don't bother replying either.

 

My comment was on the topic. Yours is purely a personal attack.

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

13 hours ago, Uncle Fester said:

Elite to me is the player that isn't just the one that gets BOG in wins, but also does it in losses. The one that when you are 5 goals down halfway in the third that is suddenly everywhere, and who does it too many times to be a fluke. Judd did it. Hird did it. Both Abletts did/do it. Carey, Flower, Buddy etc. A grade is great talent. Elite is genius.What is the saying? Talent does what it can, genius does what it what it must...

I think Gawn is very very close to it, Viney might get there, and Petracca has that spark to be such a player and pass both.

The rest mentioned are A or B. That's no slight on them, but elite is the player that when the ball is near them you stand up and watch only them because you expect them to do something sublime.

Agree we over rank our players

it is understandable, but also an indicment that we haven't had a truly elite player since R. Flower

(G Lyon was mighty close as was B Wilson)

[beelzebub 23,383]

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Agree we over rank our players

it is understandable, but also an indicment that we haven't had a truly elite player since R. Flower

(G Lyon was mighty close as was B Wilson)

Mr Stynes says hello  ( if he could )