Elite Status

[Spirit of 26 261]

You've been made coach of a new start up team playing in today,s competition. Your brief is to win from day one. Stuff any future development.  

Who would be your first 5 selections?

Would/could they be classified as "elite".

 

For the sake of the exercise I'd select:

Dangerfield, Selwood, Franklin (all elIte) Gawn and Kennedy from WC (not elite)

 

[Scipio 5,868]

5 minutes ago, Spirit of 26 said:

You've been made coach of a new start up team playing in today,s competition. Your brief is to win from day one. Stuff any future development.  

Who would be your first 5 selections?

Would/could they be classified as "elite".

 

For the sake of the exercise I'd select:

Dangerfield, Selwood, Franklin (all elIte) Gawn and Kennedy from WC (not elite)

 

Like it.

Dangerfield, Franklin, Fyfe, Goldstein (he's just a shade ahead of Gawn at this stage IMO) and Bontempelli.

All elite, with the possible exception of Bontempelli, who would at least be on the border of that hazy definition.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Django

[Sir Why You Little 34,594]

2 minutes ago, Django said:

Like it.

Dangerfield, Franklin, Fyfe, Goldstein (he's just a shade ahead of Gawn at this stage IMO) and Bontempelli.

All elite, with the possible exception of Bontempelli, who would at least be on the border of that hazy definition.

Yes They're the players we don't have & haven't for a long time.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,870]

11 minutes ago, Spirit of 26 said:

You've been made coach of a new start up team playing in today,s competition. Your brief is to win from day one. Stuff any future development.  

Who would be your first 5 selections?

Would/could they be classified as "elite".

 

For the sake of the exercise I'd select:

Dangerfield, Selwood, Franklin (all elIte) Gawn and Kennedy from WC (not elite)

 

Dangerfield, Fyfe, Franklin, Rance, Goldy. All elite in their position and thats as good of a backbone as you're gonna get. Could argue having Kennedy as a second forward and forgo the ruckman. Future development would change thing, maybe look at Gawn and T Lynch (GC) instead of Goldy and Franklin.

[binman 38,469]

31 minutes ago, hoon1 said:

I would add cooney to the list of Brownlow winners that I don't see as elite, good player but not in the same elite bracket as Judd Ablett Goodes etc

Yep, that's a fair call. So in the 24 of the 28 years an elite player has won the brownlow. Pretty good measure then i would say

[mo64 5,209]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Kicking left a bit to be desired, especially for Judd.. But definitely handballing was elite for both. I actually think Viney's kicking skills are judged harshly, and people put too much weight on when he boots the ball away from a stoppage at all costs.

I made the comment about Viney, and I actually think his kicking is fine. It's his handballing in tight situations that I question. Elite clearance players like Mitchell, Ablett, Fyfe, Selwood and Dangerfield are able to make impactful plays by either kicking, handballing or bursting out of play. Viney is elite in ball-winning, but isn't elite in his impact like the others.

[Ricky P 757]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Harsh but fair. He was just below the elite in those positions

told me himself that he played a shocker in the 2000 GF

That's the day to shine

That's interesting. I'm pretty sure he's listed in the best for the 2000 GF. Kicked 2.3 including two bad misses in the first quarter. Was killing Fletcher early but wasn't making him pay because he missed those two shots.

Would've been quite a good game had he:

1) kicked straight 

2) knocked someone's head off

[Sir Why You Little 34,594]

1 minute ago, Ricky P said:

That's interesting. I'm pretty sure he's listed in the best for the 2000 GF. Kicked 2.3 including two bad misses in the first quarter. Was killing Fletcher early but wasn't making him pay because he missed those two shots.

Would've been quite a good game had he:

1) kicked straight 

2) knocked someone's head off

Yep that was what he alluded to if he had his time over again

That first shot from the pocket was the critical one

[Moonshadow 16,241]

5 hours ago, binman said:

I'm not sure i agree.

This is a list of the winner in the last 28 years, which is a pretty big sample size. I think you could mount a strong argument that only Shane Woewodin and perhaps Scott Wyndd and Tony Liberatore would not be considered an elite player by most:

1987	John Platten	Hawthorn	20
	Tony Lockett	St Kilda	20
1988	Gerard Healy	Sydney	20
1989	Paul Couch	Geelong	22
1990	Tony Liberatore	Footscray	18
1991	Jim Stynes	Melbourne	25
1992	Scott Wynd	Footscray	20
1993	Gavin Wanganeen	Essendon	18
1994	Greg Williams	Carlton	30
1995	Paul Kelly	Sydney	21
1996	James Hird	Essendon	21
	Michael Voss	Brisbane Bears	21
1997	Robert Harvey	St Kilda	26
1998	Robert Harvey	St Kilda	32
1999	Shane Crawford	Hawthorn	28
2000	Shane Woewodin	Melbourne	24
2001	Jason Akermanis	Brisbane Lions	23
2002	Simon Black	Brisbane Lions	25
2003	Mark Ricciuto	Adelaide	22
	Nathan Buckley	Collingwood	22
	Adam Goodes	Sydney	22
2004	Chris Judd	West Coast	30
2005	Ben Cousins	West Coast	20
2006	Adam Goodes	Sydney	26
2007	Jimmy Bartel	Geelong	29
2008	Adam Cooney	Western Bulldogs	24
2009	Gary Ablett Jr	Geelong	30
2010	Chris Judd	Carlton	30
2011	Dane Swan	Collingwood	34
2012	Jobe Watson∗	Essendon	30
2013	Gary Ablett Jr	Gold Coast	28
2014	Matt Priddis	West Coast	26
2015	Nathan Fyfe	Fremantle	31

Er.... you disagree but you give examples in which you agree?

I'd add Cooney, Platten, Crawf and Couch to your list, maybe Aker too. Many non MFC footy fans would argue Jimmy was not elite. Probably right.

As I said, a Brownlow in no way guarantees elite status.

edit. I would define elite as refering to their career. Otherwise it's cherry picking.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Moonshadow

[junk 342]

N.jones B,  A good club man,when he gets beaten the team rarely wins. Vince B+ a better competitor than Nat but goes missing. Watts C+ best year to date,still owes the club heaps.Gawn B+ very good year,would be better if our small made most of his ruckwork. T.Mac B inconsistent but can be much better. Petracca B will get better, Oliver B will get better,Brayshaw C+ has not done anything so far this year due to injury. Rest to review soon.

[binman 38,469]

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

Er.... you disagree but you give examples in which you agree?

I'd add Cooney, Platten, Crawf and Couch to your list, maybe Aker too. Many non MFC footy fans would argue Jimmy was not elite. Probably right.

As I said, a Brownlow in no way guarantees elite status.

edit. I would define elite as refering to their career. Otherwise it's cherry picking.

You're kidding right. I'll give you cooney, though in the season he won it he was a short priced favourite and had a brilliant year and i have no doubt would have been elite if not for chronic knee problems. Platten, Crawf, Stynes, Couch and  Aker all most definitiley elite players. Some consider Platten one of the best players to come out of SA for petes'  sakes. Stynes not elite? You can't be serious. 

As i said 24 of the 28 years an elite player has won the Brownlow. Pretty good measure and one that refutes your claim the Bronwlow is not a good indicator of elite status. But i just chose the last 28 years. Here is the next 28 years.

1959	Verdun Howell	St Kilda	20
	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	20
1960	John Schultz	Footscray	20
1961	John James	Carlton	21
1962	Alistair Lord	Geelong	28
1963	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	20
1964	Gordon Collis	Carlton	27
1965	Noel Teasdale	North Melbourne	20
	Ian Stewart	St Kilda	20
1966	Ian Stewart	St Kilda	21
1967	Ross Smith	St Kilda	24
1968	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	24
1969	Kevin Murray	Fitzroy	19
1970	Peter Bedford	South Melbourne	25
1971	Ian Stewart	Richmond	21
1972	Len Thompson	Collingwood	25
1973	Keith Greig	North Melbourne	27
1974	Keith Greig	North Melbourne	27
1975	Gary Dempsey	Footscray	20
1976	Graham Moss	Essendon	48
1977	Graham Teasdale	South Melbourne	59
1978	Malcolm Blight	North Melbourne	22
1979	Peter Moore	Collingwood	22
1980	Kelvin Templeton	Footscray	23
1981	Bernie Quinlan	Fitzroy	22
	Barry Round	South Melbourne	22
1982	Brian Wilson	Melbourne	23
1983	Ross Glendinning	North Melbourne	24
1984	Peter Moore	Melbourne	24
1985	Brad Hardie	Footscray	22
1986	Robert DiPierdomenico	Hawthorn	17
	Greg Williams	Sydney	17

Perhaps 4-5 of that list might not have been considered elite. That leaves 23 who were. So in the last 56 years the winner of the brownlow was elite player 46-47 times. And you argue its not a good indicator of elite status. Sheesh.

Edited June 22, 2016 by binman

[binman 38,469]

Just on Platten.

He made AA 5 times, won a Bronlow, a Magarey, played in four VFL/AFL premierships, kicked 228 goals in 258 games,  won 2 best and fairests at both Hawthorn and Central Districts and is in both the SANFL and AFL Hall of Fame and you don't consider him elite? 

All i can say is you must have a pretty high bar for elite.

[Sir Why You Little 34,594]

18 minutes ago, binman said:

Just on Platten.

He made AA 5 times, won a Bronlow, a Magarey, played in four VFL/AFL premierships, kicked 228 goals in 258 games,  won 2 best and fairests at both Hawthorn and Central Districts and is in both the SANFL and AFL Hall of Fame and you don't consider him elite? 

All i can say is you must have a pretty high bar for elite.

Platten was amazing. Considering he got smashed weekly

did he ever play a bad game? Some a little quieter than others but he was always close to the ball

Drove me insane!!

[Moonshadow 16,241]

27 minutes ago, binman said:

You're kidding right. I'll give you cooney, though in the season he won it he was a short priced favourite and had a brilliant year and i have no doubt would have been elite if not for chronic knee problems. Platten, Crawf, Stynes, Couch and  Aker all most definitiley elite players. Some consider Platten one of the best players to come out of SA for petes'  sakes. Stynes not elite? You can't be serious. 

As i said 24 of the 28 years an elite player has won the Brownlow. Pretty good measure and one that refutes your claim the Bronwlow is not a good indicator of elite status. But i just chose the last 28 years. Here is the next 28 years.

1959	Verdun Howell	St Kilda	20
	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	20
1960	John Schultz	Footscray	20
1961	John James	Carlton	21
1962	Alistair Lord	Geelong	28
1963	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	20
1964	Gordon Collis	Carlton	27
1965	Noel Teasdale	North Melbourne	20
	Ian Stewart	St Kilda	20
1966	Ian Stewart	St Kilda	21
1967	Ross Smith	St Kilda	24
1968	Bob Skilton	South Melbourne	24
1969	Kevin Murray	Fitzroy	19
1970	Peter Bedford	South Melbourne	25
1971	Ian Stewart	Richmond	21
1972	Len Thompson	Collingwood	25
1973	Keith Greig	North Melbourne	27
1974	Keith Greig	North Melbourne	27
1975	Gary Dempsey	Footscray	20
1976	Graham Moss	Essendon	48
1977	Graham Teasdale	South Melbourne	59
1978	Malcolm Blight	North Melbourne	22
1979	Peter Moore	Collingwood	22
1980	Kelvin Templeton	Footscray	23
1981	Bernie Quinlan	Fitzroy	22
	Barry Round	South Melbourne	22
1982	Brian Wilson	Melbourne	23
1983	Ross Glendinning	North Melbourne	24
1984	Peter Moore	Melbourne	24
1985	Brad Hardie	Footscray	22
1986	Robert DiPierdomenico	Hawthorn	17
	Greg Williams	Sydney	17

Perhaps 4-5 of that list might not have been considered elite. That leaves 23 who were. So in the last 56 years the winner of the brownlow was elite player 46-47 times. And you argue its not a good indicator of elite status. Sheesh.

Try not to put words into my mouth binman. I said a Brownlow does not guarantee elite status.

I do not think the umpires are the best people to judge the best player in any one year. From your first list, I count about 8 out of 30 players that I would not consider elite. Given this is Demonland, of course few here would say Jimmy was not elite. I've seen all of them play quite a bit. But that's simply my opinion, just as you consider 24 of 28 to be elite, your opinion, but not fact. I'm not using just one year in a player's career, or injury as an excuse, or going way back to 1959.

Plus your numbers do not add up. I think you might've counted medals rather than medalists. 

Regardless, I'll agree to disagree.

[binman 38,469]

7 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Try not to put words into my mouth binman. I said a Brownlow does not guarantee elite status.

I do not think the umpires are the best people to judge the best player in any one year. From your first list, I count about 8 out of 30 players that I would not consider elite. Given this is Demonland, of course few here would say Jimmy was not elite. I've seen all of them play quite a bit. But that's simply my opinion, just as you consider 24 of 28 to be elite, your opinion, but not fact. I'm not using just one year in a player's career, or injury as an excuse, or going way back to 1959.

Plus your numbers do not add up. I think you might've counted medals rather than medalists. 

Regardless, I'll agree to disagree.

Yep fair enough - a brownlow does not 'guarantee' elite status. I took your comments a little less literally. 

I agree umpires are not the best people to judge the best player in any one year. However looking at the list of Brownlow winners the majority are elite so i think it reasonable to say that at the very least winning the Charlie is a good indicator of where a player sits in terms of his ranking as a player. 

[Moonshadow 16,241]

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Yep fair enough - a brownlow does not 'guarantee' elite status. I took your comments a little less literally. 

I agree umpires are not the best people to judge the best player in any one year. However looking at the list of Brownlow winners the majority are elite so i think it reasonable to say that at the very least winning the Charlie is a good indicator of where a player sits in terms of his ranking as a player. 

Agreed.

I'll go further and claim there are more elite players that have not won a Brownlow than those who have. Eg, Lethal, Robbie, GA Snr, Roos, Dunstall, SOS, Carey, and so on. 

Here's to Jobe Watson being removed from your list in the near future 

[H_T 2,941]

12 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

Agreed.

I'll go further and claim there are more elite players that have not won a Brownlow than those who have. Eg, Lethal, Robbie, GA Snr, Roos, Dunstall, SOS, Carey, and so on. 

Here's to Jobe Watson being removed from your list in the near future 

SO getting back to my earlier OP, would the MVP (AFL) be a more recognisable trigger of recognition for elite status...than say the Brownlow? 

Then there's the coaches votes each week too. Should more emphasis be put on this in terms of measuring the elite? (Granted in season) 

I recognise the sample size for an elite player may need to be greater than just one season. 

[ArtificialWisdom 3,870]

27 minutes ago, H_T said:

SO getting back to my earlier OP, would the MVP (AFL) be a more recognisable trigger of recognition for elite status...than say the Brownlow? 

Then there's the coaches votes each week too. Should more emphasis be put on this in terms of measuring the elite? (Granted in season) 

I recognise the sample size for an elite player may need to be greater than just one season. 

MVP is probably the same as the brownlow. I think elite is when you are among the best at what you do. The best defenders are elite but none of them are going to be voted in as MVP or win many awards. I also think that you dont have to be the best to be Elite, you need to be in the top few. 

As for sample size, personaly i think if you are playing to an elite level over any resonable period of time that puts you in the elite bracket, you do it repeatedly over a number of years and you lock yourself there for the remainder of your career. So Gawn is an Elite ruckman right now, but will have to maintain his form for years to come to be remembered as elite player at the end of his career. 

[H_T 2,941]

1 hour ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think elite is when you are among the best at what you do. The best defenders are elite but none of them are going to be voted in as MVP or win many awards. I also think that you dont have to be the best to be Elite, you need to be in the top few. 

As for sample size, personaly i think if you are playing to an elite level over any resonable period of time that puts you in the elite bracket, you do it repeatedly over a number of years and you lock yourself there for the remainder of your career. So Gawn is an Elite ruckman right now, but will have to maintain his form for years to come to be remembered as elite player at the end of his career. 

Unless you're in contention for the 'golden fist' award... 

Agree entirely with the rest of your post. Reasonable period of time at an elite level puts you in the elite bracket.

What about class factor?

Some here would suggest Jones is elite given he's performed very well for a number of seasons in a row (couple of B&F's). But is he considered in the top few? I think that point is debatable. I think Jones has his faults sometimes (ie. handballing to a teammate directly under the pump).

He's certainly in the top few players at Melbourne right now IMO in terms of consistency etc, but he would struggle to break into the top 25 or even 50 players in the AFL depending who you're talking to. 

With that I think a class factor is a component of elite status in many peoples views. Not so much the 'blue collar worker' component - of which I love and admire mind you. Because that in itself is regarded by many as the heartbeat, the essence of a teams work ethic leadership.

 

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

Elite....how about we try just turning up every week to play.

As for the lists that rate our players by giving them gradings, A grade players or guns of the competition are players like Danger, Ablett, Hodge and Betts. We have some players who have come a long way but they're not there yet. 

[ArtificialWisdom 3,870]

1 hour ago, H_T said:

Unless you're in contention for the 'golden fist' award... 

Agree entirely with the rest of your post. Reasonable period of time at an elite level puts you in the elite bracket.

What about class factor?

Some here would suggest Jones is elite given he's performed very well for a number of seasons in a row (couple of B&F's). But is he considered in the top few? I think that point is debatable. I think Jones has his faults sometimes (ie. handballing to a teammate directly under the pump).

He's certainly in the top few players at Melbourne right now IMO in terms of consistency etc, but he would struggle to break into the top 25 or even 50 players in the AFL depending who you're talking to. 

With that I think a class factor is a component of elite status in many peoples views. Not so much the 'blue collar worker' component - of which I love and admire mind you. Because that in itself is regarded by many as the heartbeat, the essence of a teams work ethic leadership.

 

oh haha of course how could i forget the golden fist!

I dont think Jones is elite. He won B&Fs in a side where he was 1 of about 5 players at AFL standard which is unfortunate because the wins will never be as highly rated as he deserves. He is a compeditor and little more. His ability to will himself to win every contest makes him better than what I thought his raw talent would allow. But he doesnt have any weapons to call himself elite. Gawn is elite because his tapwork sets him appart then he just does a good job around the ground. Except the QB game where I think his tapwork was elite then he followed up being one of our best rovers!

Class is so hard to tie directly to elite. Dane swan was widely refered to as elite but he doesnt have much class, as blue collar as they come. Rance too, he is an elite defender but no real 'class' they just do the job very well. Then you look at a Fyfe, Selwood, Dangerfield or Ablett who all have both blue collar and class then look at someone like a Pendlebury or a Mitchell who I think are just pure class. Yes they are hard enough to go in when required but they are there for other reasons. Then look at a Burgoyne he is super classy but i dont really think he is elite.

Impossible to tell who is and isnt based on any criteria... its just a feeling, understanding of the game and where players sit and even then the biggest experts are going to disagree on a few. 

[junk 342]

Reviewing rest of team Bugg B,Kennedy C+ need to be consistent,Garland C struggles at reseve level,Dunn C,Hunt B could improve,Harmes B could improve,Wagner B ? on how far can he go. Trengove C a bit slow may improve. Vander C+  injuries are hindering his progress, Dawes B slow down,O'Mac C will get better,Frost C should get better, Lumumba C slowing down,Garlett C+ doesn't care for reseve footy, Minchie C- revolving door stock,Newton C- same as Minchie,ANB C possibly better than Minchie,Terlich C- trained the house down,not in Roos favour. Hogan B+ will get better.Tyson B does not do enough. M.Jones near end of his career. Jetta B serviceable. Salem B illness has caused set backs. Footy players who win a brownlow you would expect to be elite,however Woewodin and Brian Wilson quickly  became obsolete,it only seems to happen at Melbourne.